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Watts come on, was able to immediately get involved, and the flow of the game changed. I understand he was coming off a poor 3 weeks, his confidence shot, but we simply can't afford not to have him in the team. I understand how frustrating he is, however he is immensely creative even when he is out of form. He is underrated on this sight. I am happy to see he has seemed to shake the mental demons and hope he can learn from this form slump to become more consistent.

Watch the replay because I remember thinking Toump is getting to the contests and helping out as a junior player should. After the replay I have no idea what game people have been watching. It is the Sydney game right? He ran to contests, held tackles, ran back and manned up when others have up running. You can criticise some of his disposal (like any player) but he runs. He gets into posission and he is trying to learn his craft. Let the kid learn like we are letting our other boys learn.

I need to put up my hand and cop a slice of humble pie. I voiced my concern about picking Salem over Nathan Freeman and Luke Dunstan. But he has been nothing but super for us this year. His pin point delivery and poise is such a delight to watch. While Dunstan will be a good player, Freeman is currently struggling in the VFL.. could you imagine the wrist slashing lol I love how he took Franklin on last night and surprisingly managed to get away from him. I would love to see him push up into the midfield but i don't think we will see that till next year. Leave him where he is now he is developing just fine. He add grunt and hardness his decision making is top notch. A midfield combo of Salem Petracca Brayshaw Tyson Viney Stretch ANB and Toumpas looks quite formidable in years time.

He's harder at it than Yze.

I thought Toumpas was actually ok, deserves a couple of weeks at it.

Not sure this has been touched (I assume it has), but I thought the Bronx cheer for Watts when he got a clearance just after he came on was pretty poor form. He frustrates me as much as anyone, but when he has just come on, to hear that, I would imagine would be pretty soul destroying. And I thought he was good when he came on yesterday, at least save the booing for when he is having a stinker.

time to throw out all of our plans for the year?! we're sitting 2-4 have beaten Gold coast lost to GWS ( currently sitting second and beat the Hawks yesterday ) lost to Adelaide ( seriously challenged but fell short over there, against a team currently sitting 4th) beaten Richmond ( played finals last year ) lost to Fremantle ( competed fairly well for half the game, but had lapses against the flag favourites ) lost to Sydney ( probably the most talented list in the comp, 2 of the last three grand finals ) we aren't getting beaten by dud teams, we all knew where our team sat going into the year 6-8 win team showing signs we could be a 10-12 win team in 2016 i think we've shown signs we're on the way up, probably lacked some polish and composure against good teams and it's cost us, and we've had lapses as young teams do. certainly don't feel like we're playing anywhere near our best, but i also don't think things are so bad we should just start playing kids and planning for the future, and that goes against the culture we're trying to build

Supporters are spooked by a random calling in on talkback radio ? Interesting.

NO

We have played 4 of the top 5 teams to date. I was at the ground tonight and we were never in it, but well into the last quarter had 7 goals to their 11... wrist slashing is somewhat premature! Salem is not going to be a half-back for much longer. Billy showed he is a quality player, even at this early stage. McDonald continues to have an All Australian year. Hogan continues to impress. Garlett and Lumumba continue to be very good additions. I thought Newton was a handy contributor... just focusing on recent additions... not all bad news!

There was only about 25000 there tonight and im tipping a fair few of those who are posting on here were watching from the comfort of their couches. An issue for another day but poor turnout by YOU. Being at the ground we worked hard to pressure and harrass Sydney but where we kept getting hammered was not pinning the ball or the player in the tackles and contested situations. Far too many times we got tackled and the ball was either held up or turned over and then when the swans players were tackled they either broke them or got the ball free and out to a player who moved it on quickly. Quite simply, we were completely outmuscled around the contest tonight. There is no quick fix for that as it takes time to build our young midfielders up and we simply dont have the same amoutn of tall strong midfield beasts to compete with both Freo and Sydney. The Swans were far better at their transition from defence to attack and held their structure better so that they always had an option to kick too on the break. And they hit targets. Too often our forwards were sucked too far up the ground leaving no marking targets at half forward or loose swans there. This is where those watching on TV will never get an understanding of what is going on. Multiple times the demons were moving out of half back and there was literally nobody to kick the ball too. That's what then causes hesitation and indecision and that is when they then turn the ball over or stuff it up. Picket Fence please give it a rest. You are so Toumpas focussed you cannot see past your nose. He was so far from our worst tonight its not funny. He ran hard, competed hard and when there was an option available he took it. But when your only target is garlett amongst three swans defenders i don't blame him for hesitating or trying the impossible. People say Watts had no impact, again, he was the sub so pretty hard to influence the game from there. When he came on the game was over but he still had a crack. Again not the problem. At the ground Pyke absolutely destroyed Spencer. Spencer offers absolutely nothing. I have always said he competes hard but that does not cut it at AFL level when you are a liability otheriwse. A horrid passage of play occurred when he gave a handball off to jonesy running through half back but then failed to follow up and support by laying the block/shepherd and it resulted in jonesy getting smashed. He has absolutely no football nouse nor skills. Howe was poor tonight. Dunn had a bad night. Dawes was sucked too far up the ground and even still didn't offer much. But quite simply- we were hammered by a bigger, stronger, faster, fitter and more skilled team. Anyone with common sense should be able to see that. We competed hard- drawing even or thereabouts in many of the contested categories but you cannot change phyisics and these simple facts. Next week will be more of the same. It is the weeks after that where we might have some hope again.

It's been said I think, but not properly considered by most of us - the four teams who've beaten us are currently four of the top five teams on the ladder. Now, obviously PA and Hawthorn are better than their ladder positions show, but the point is that we are losing to sides who are showing early season glimpses of finals football. When we've played lesser sides, we've dominated and won both times. I think this has to be kept in mind for a bit of perspective. Doesn't make last night any less deplorable, but should remind us that it isn't as grim as it may first seem.

Would anyone else be tempted to offer Cross another year? even if he plays half the games and some at casey he sets a great example and is a fantasic leader

Its fun reading how some players are marked and how the criticism gets justified but others float by. Toumpas first game back in for a grand total of 20th with probably third as the sub has 7 kicks 7 handballs at 71%. Newton has 7 kicks and 7 handballs at 71% including two shocking errors early in the game. Spencer after half time was clearly the better ruckman and had the second most tackles and second most clearances in his first game back. Pike who some claim is a second rate ruckman was second for contested grabs in the league last year, achieved the tap out record in one game last week and has only been beaten by Sandilands all year. Jamar showed at VFL he is done and Gawn did some good things but does not work half as hard as Spencer. Watts comes on and was clean and serviceable. Howe floats by in another lazy, disinterested soft game. My main disappointment was we seemed so focussed on halving the stoppages with them last night that no held position and no had interest to spread when we had the ball. Tyson needs to face criticism for his inability to spread or if he is that injured try and get right whatever is wrong. JKH's workrate is appalling and he needs to have a long stint at Casey. Hopefully Viney back so Vince can be let off the leash as we are now missing his attacking creativity whilst he is more focussed on the tag.

He is an example of good recruiting and good development. When he came to the club, he was a skinny kid and couldn't find much of the ball in his early games (although when he did, he looked good). Now, he is bulked up and his form is on an upward spiral. The way it should be. One instance in the second quarter last night, he was being chased and just as the Swans player (I think it was Rohan) was about to tackle him, he did a little shimmy to the left to buy himself more time. It was class and poise on show! Those who criticised the Tyson/Salem deal are looking sillier by the day. They combined for 50 possessions on the weekend and that's even with one of them playing well below their best. Well done to the list management and recruiters on this one.

It's still a little upsetting when you see teams from the bottom like Bulldogs and GWS beat the last years grand finalists and we are still getting smashed by them.

I'm going to avoid the doom and gloom of the post-mortems and just park myself in this thread for the rest of the year. Was caught out of position a number of times tonight (not necessarily his fault of course) yet still clunked 8 marks, of which 2 were again contested. Another 2 goals, too. The one-handed mark was an absolute ripper; he's so much stronger than his still-developing frame would suggest. The kid has the world at his feet.

Established or experienced players who had very little impact ... Dawes Watts Pedersen Howe Garland Other established or experienced players who are still down on their best and/or need to do more ... Dunn Vince N Jones Tyson Lumumba We need a greater impact from all 10 of the above players - we cannot hope to win games unless that happens. They should be leading the way and they aren't. The possession count by a few of the aforementioned 10 players was quite flattering. 'Ok' or 'Alright' doesn't cut it. The Swans were in cruise mode after half time.

This has already been discussed elsewhere. I'm closing this thread and trust that you will all now respect the fact that Clark is in fact suffering a serious illness.

Jeff Garlett is doing a fine job…averaging 2 goals per game. On track to kick 40-50 for the season which will be up there with his very best at Carlton. He will have delivered on what we all hoped he would when recruited. BTW, at his current rate Hogan will also kick 40-50 for the season. It would be a pretty good effort by both players given the last 3 Coleman medals have been won with 60-70 goals.

So the back to back premiers are now being labelled 'flat track bullies' based on a few narrow losses? Now I've heard it all.

ENYAW can. So that's ok!!

Wow Carlton are shite! Why do we have to wait until the end of the year to play them?

His 2nd goal was an interesting kick, it traveled 55 metres and was a low bullet kick. It was a rocket. He doesn't seem to get much height in his set shots. The one handed contested mark was epic.

All game plans start at the same point, get the footy. We have been monstered two weeks in a row by big bodied midfields. Watch Josh Kennedy continually distribute the ball last night while being tackled. This isn't a lack of intent issue, it's a lack of cattle issue. Our midfield try hard but we need bigger bodies and better users of the ball.

Matt jones? You are [censored] joking right? If that's what we have got to look forward to then we are stuffed

Toumpas = the new Watts, he was serviceable tonight, ran his back side off. The person people should be pointing the finger at is Howe, he just dances around and doesn't do a thing, so many poor efforts. We were smashed by a match bigger and hungrier team. Swans vs Freo granny this year.

It would be great were that contagious

The same thing we've needed for years, quality midfielders! Any of Dangerfield, Shiel, Treloar, Coniglio could be on the move and we must land one. I don't care if we have to pay overs, we need quality midfielders and it's not like our current list would demand much of a salary. I'd throw $1,000,000 a year at Shiel. He's got line breaking pace, strong ball winning ability and kicks goals. He's also still young. He'd be the perfect target.

Dylan Shiel has got to be target number 1 Hoskin Elliot to add some pace, Scott Selwood, Mathew leuenberger, Jon Griffen,Charlie Dixon, Trent Mckenzie, Zac jones

MIDS MIDS MIDS MIDS MIDS MIDS MIDS MIDS MIDS MIDS MIDS MIDS MIDS MIDS MIDS MIDS MIDS MIDS MIDS MIDS MIDSMIDS MIDS MIDS MIDS MIDS MIDSMIDS MIDS MIDS MIDS MIDS MIDSMIDS MIDS MIDS MIDS MIDS MIDSMIDS MIDS MIDSMIDS MIDS MIDSMIDS MIDS MIDS MIDS MIDS MIDSMIDS MIDS MIDS MIDS MIDS MIDSMIDS MIDS MIDS MIDS MIDS MIDSMIDS MIDS MIDSMIDS MIDS MIDSMIDS MIDS MIDS MIDS MIDS MIDSMIDS MIDS MIDS MIDS MIDS MIDSMIDS MIDS MIDS MIDS MIDS MIDSMIDS MIDS MIDSMIDS MIDS MIDSMIDS MIDS MIDS MIDS MIDS MIDSMIDS MIDS MIDS MIDS MIDS MIDSMIDS MIDS MIDS MIDS MIDS MIDSMIDS MIDS MIDSMIDS MIDS MIDSMIDS MIDS MIDS MIDS MIDS MIDSMIDS MIDS MIDS MIDS MIDS MIDSMIDS MIDS MIDS MIDS MIDS MIDSMIDS MIDS MIDSMIDS MIDS MIDSMIDS MIDS MIDS MIDS MIDS MIDSMIDS MIDS MIDS MIDS MIDS MIDSMIDS MIDS MIDS MIDS MIDS MIDSMIDS MIDS MIDSMIDS MIDS MIDSMIDS MIDS MIDS MIDS MIDS MIDSMIDS MIDS MIDS MIDS MIDS MIDSMIDS MIDS MIDS MIDS MIDS MIDSMIDS MIDS MIDSMIDS MIDS MIDSMIDS MIDS MIDS MIDS MIDS MIDSMIDS MIDS MIDS MIDS MIDS MIDSMIDS MIDS MIDS MIDS MIDS MIDSMIDS MIDS MIDSMIDS MIDS MIDSMIDS MIDS MIDS MIDS MIDS MIDSMIDS MIDS MIDS MIDS MIDS MIDSMIDS MIDS MIDS MIDS MIDS MIDSMIDS MIDS MIDSMIDS MIDS MIDSMIDS MIDS MIDS MIDS MIDS MIDSMIDS MIDS MIDS MIDS MIDS MIDSMIDS MIDS MIDS MIDS MIDS MIDSMIDS MIDS MIDSMIDS MIDS MIDSMIDS MIDS MIDS MIDS MIDS MIDSMIDS MIDS MIDS MIDS MIDS MIDSMIDS MIDS MIDS MIDS MIDS MIDSMIDS MIDS MIDSMIDS MIDS MIDSMIDS MIDS MIDS MIDS MIDS MIDSMIDS MIDS MIDS MIDS MIDS MIDSMIDS MIDS MIDSMIDS MIDS MIDSMIDS MIDS MIDS MIDS MIDS MIDSMIDS MIDS MIDSMIDS MIDS MIDSMIDS MIDS MIDSMIDS MIDS MIDSMIDS MIDS MIDS MIDS MIDS MIDSMIDS MIDS MIDS MIDS MIDS MIDSMIDS MIDS MIDS MIDS MIDS MIDSMIDS MIDS MIDSMIDS MIDS MIDS MIDS MIDS MIDS!!!!!

I assume you are talking about the phone

Cause and effect!! There is no evidence whatsoever that suggests the low carb diet is the problem for our woes. Despite all of the moaning on this forum, we are actually playing better than last season. Whilst I do not therefore claim that this a direct result of the diet, it is certainly not evidence of a problem in the diet.

enough to be eligible and snag a future father/son maybe?

or his way of telling WADA to go for it. Too much reading of tea leaves is bad for you.

No no no.JKH is learning and getting to more contests every week.

Is it just me or does Salem remind anybody else of Yze. Very similar types and seem to be developing in the same way. Yze went to half back early on in his career and then went midfield. He is going to be a really good player. If you watch Ross presser what he says is exactly right, last year or the year before, we would of got smashed but at least 15-20 goals, improvement is not just about winning, although that would be nice, we have the building blocks of a good quality team here, they need to keep working hard and stay together.

Hopefully Sam Frost can fill that role when he comes back - he's not a forward and is big enough to compete with the second key forward.

Mission a complete failure?? Yet only 3 weeks ago we were applauding his effort to keep our injury list to a minimum. What a stupid post.

Fork 'em not happy either

I was actually happy that little ferret Shaw got stuck into him and Jack seemed to respond by telling himself that he wasn't going to take that kinda crap from a toe rag piece of filth. Footy is a contact sport, if you don't relish crashing and bashing, then you at least have to accept and expect it. I hope Jack starts on the field next week.

I remember a few years back him saying he wanted to be the best player in the league, or something along those lines. I giggled but i also loved his determination. This guy was always going to get the best out of himself. Absolute star.

I didn't watch much of the game as I was at a birthday where they had it on in the background. That said, you have to consider the fact that we are a young developing team with senior "plug gap" players brought in while the kids develop. We've got a stretch of games against 3 of the clear best 4 teams in the comp all with mature well skilled/disciplined mids. Yeah it sucks to see how far off the pace we are against the best but Freo, Sydney and Hawthorn will be fighting out for the flag with Port and no one really gave us much chance of finishing higher than 12th. Maybe 10th at the very best. Have a look at what some of our young kids did and take heart for the future. Hogan, Salem, TMac, Tyson, Brayshaw, Viney etc these guys have what it takes and as they mature and get more developed bodies they'll match it with the best teams. As it is now our mids don't have the bodies or senior support to go toe to toe with Freo and Sydney but it will come and I have faith they can do it against most teams in the comp. The top 4 are a league ahead of the rest of the comp though.

Given that we've still got players in the MFC 22 who either aren't quite ready or aren't quite good enough, it shouldn't come as a surprise there are a bunch of players playing at Casey who aren't ready or aren't good enough.

After watching Casey today I don't want to think about the depths of our shallowness.

Just got home from the game after a long train ride,shall try and keep things positive: T Mac Hogan Seeing Stretch's first goal I got a pink torch

Is Lumumba on big coin? Played 1 good game (round 1) where his DE was 100%, I haven't checked it since but I'd be surprised if it was over 50%. Shocking by hand and foot. Too much is still left up to Nathan Jones, he's looks sore, I'd rest him against the Hawks because he needs it, and the rest of the mids need to wake the [censored] up. Get Bernie in a more attacking role and give Garlett more minutes in the middle. Tom McDonald is something else. Has killed every game. Salem was fantastic again, he has it all. Hogan would kick 80 in a top 4 side, but don't tell him that. We really need frost as a key defender for the likes of Tippett, Griffiths etc... I thought we were going to lose by more, and I thought the scoreboard flattered us. Well done Billy.

Brian Taylor is the worst commentator of all time...