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1. Nobody said Tyson was a dud.2. Nobody said Newton was a wrong choice. 3. Nobody said Van Demon was a wrong choice. You do yourself no favours at all by being disingenuous. I get your frustration at wrist slashers; I share it. However those players along with Jones all had poor games, people are allowed to point that out. Your "superstar to dud" comment shows how black and white you see things. Tyson is neither a superstar nor a dud and more to the point, nobody has suggested that he is.

Because Toumpas was the standout choice at the time. Toumpas has proven to be an ordinary selection but recruiters don't get the benefit of hindsight. FWIW, you were one of the 148 Demonlanders who voted Toumpas. http://demonland.com/forums/index.php?/topic/32253-poll-wines-or-toumpas/

So you're upset because he said something you admit to be true? Would it really make you feel better if he lied and said something "nice" about the club?

Firstly, Freo are absolutely the real deal and barring a bad run with injuries are certain to finish top two. The media has perpetrated this myth that they dropped away badly last year but they finished 3rd after the home and away, lost a cracking final away to Sydney in the wet, and had Port on toast the following week – they didn’t kick straight and paid the price. You only had to watch them when we got the ball yesterday to see how well drilled they are. Ross Lyon is just a fantastic coach. The no. 1 factor for our loss yesterday was the centre clearances. I have never seen us, even in the real dark days, get smashed at the centre bounces like we were yesterday. It was a procession, particularly in the first quarter (no wonder Roosy gave our boys a spray) and the last 20 minutes. Sandilands was obviously a key but Jamar was competitive, however even when he got his hands on it Freo took it away. Not only were they getting the first possession but quite often the takeaways were super clean. Mundy and Fyfe are guns – at one point in the second quarter, Fyfe had 4 clearances, followed by a whole host of players on 1. Give him the Brownlow now. Their midfield depth is fantastic too – Barlow, Neale, Hill, Suban, Pearce. Our decision making is better than it used to be but still hurts us. Freo’s ability to get back in numbers seemed to stifle our willingness to take a risk and move the ball on at times, particularly in the first quarter. We were stagnant. Jonesy had two or three bad turnovers early with either telegraphed kicks or poor choices and that was a bit unusual for him. Having said that, he wasn’t Robinson Crusoe. Positives – Brayshaw looks a natural footballer, loved his ability to neutralise the one on one marking contest inside 50 with Fyfe in the last couple of minutes. Just needs to work on his kicking a bit. Garlett gives us some real polish and pace up forward, really surprised at his marking ability for a small. Having said that, the open goal miss in the third was frustrating Tommy Mac was fantastic. You can see the confidence growing more every week, he’s a real leader and has reduced the decision making errors significantly. Will still make them from time to time because he takes the game on but nowhere near as many as last year Hogan was beaten by McPharlin but still contributed with nine marks. We need more players who still contribute strongly even when beaten by their opponent.

I'm quoting this so it appears twice.

Was a good interview - some highlights below. * It was the great Robbie Flower who helped get Viney to Melbourne. Todd was also talking to Essendon at the time, but when Melbourne invited him over to Victoria, it was Robbie who they dispatched to the airport to pick up Todd, who was impressed by Robbie's love for the game as they spoke on the way home. The following morning, Robbie appeared dressed up in a khaki suit, some sort of practical joke apparently. * Todd actually went on the 1985 end-of-season trip to Hawaii with the MFC. On the plane Todd was talking to a player (who he refused to name) and mentioned that he was talking to the Dons, and the player said to him: "Well what the f*** are you doing on the plane with us?" * Played chess with Barassi on the beach in Hawaii during that trip - Ron said to him: "I don't care how much talent you have, I care about what you do with it." * Said he suffered a bad dose of the 2nd-year blues, and by his own admission, he was more interested in how many drink cards he could accumulate than possessions. Says he deserved to be dropped in the finals but Strawbs' suspension left the door open to return to the GF team. He wrote a letter to Northey begging to play, and suggested he line up on a wing from where he could clean up Brereton (something Brereton did the following year against Yeates). * Loved to play aggressive - said when the opportunity arose to hurt someone on the field, he would. * The biting incident with West Coast's Chris Lewis came at a time when AIDS was prominent. The bite drew blood. Viney said he was told he had to get a blood test; next thing, the Herald Sun was all over it with a front page saying Viney going for an AIDS test. Said in later years when he came across Mick Malthouse, Malthouse said he had never forgiven him (Viney) for what he did to Lewis. Unfortunately, Mike didn't follow this up and ask whether they were on speaking terms today. * Being an assistant coach at Hawthorn for the 2008 flag is probably his favourite footy memory - the chance to teach, shape and mould a team and then see it come to fruition. * Said the offer from Mark Philippoussis was too good to refuse - effectively doubling what he was earning at Melbourne, and Philippoussis was in good form at the time, but he ultimately ended up clashing with the 'Poo's father, Viney saying he was made a scapegoat. * The MFC of 2011 (around the time of Bailey's sacking) was the 'most fractured' environment he'd ever been in. Said every decision was second-guessed, there was no trust, no self-belief and no real plan. * Describes Roos as calm, logical, methodical. Says his eye is on the goal and he knows how to stay the course and shut out the noise in the background. * Very proud of Jack and the way he goes about it. Says he's slowly learning about the feats of his father at the MFC. * Also put to rest the apocryphal myth about beating Boris Becker. He did play against Stefan Edberg as a junior, which somehow morphed into Becker, and when Lou Richards mentioned it during an interview early on, Viney stayed silent and didn't correct the record. * Spoke of the difficulty of having to speak at Robbie's funeral. Said he had copious notes, but no way of conveying in words just how good a person Robbie was. Also acknowledged the deaths of his other team-mates and friends, Jimmy and Sean, Dean Bailey, and Neale Daniher's battle with illness. One other noteworthy thing was hearing Mike talk about Schwarz '94 - said he was as good as Carey at that stage, and Carey is his all-time no.1 best player. Right at the end, Todd asked Mike if he could read a short statement on the drafting of Jimmy Toumpas. Mike said yes, but unfortunately time was up and the show ended just as Todd started reading.

Well well well. What a surprise. A Hird apologist defaulting to Hird tactics, personified by personal abuse rather than reasoned argument. Why am I not surprised?

I find it a little bit amusing for a club that was so determined for the " truth to come out " they haven't been in a hurry to release it. for me it should be as simple as no records = guilty.

I was obviously at another game. You liked his kick off the side of his boot straight to a Docker, when he could have lobbed it into the goal square for Jesse and his handball to a standing still Jamar, who had 2 Dockers near him. I am not positive but think both may have resulted In Docker goals. Jordie is a great guy, but is a major liability with his shocking disposal, in today's possession game, where a poor disposal often leads to the opposition scoring.

Was a tad "too tired" to post last night. We received a jolly good flogging - love that word. A little perspective is needed though.I have to say Freo looked very bloody good and I am prepared to suggest they will [censored] other teams before year's end and will be deep into serious finals action. Some observations. 1.They clearly had more players on the ground than us. 2.We showed excellent manners in allowing our guests to always use the ball before us. Players. Jamar battled manfully all day and did as well as could be expected against a "Monster" who was simply too bloody big. The hit outs to advantage killed our mids and us. Pedo did a bit and it will be an interesting selection if Dawes is fit as JW was very poor and a couple of attempts at taking "one handers" will not help his cause at selection. Garlett did his job well (As did Eddie in Adelaide) so one can only hope that Carlton fans are crying and gnashing there teeth. (Collingwood supporters cannot gnash) TMac was a standout and looks a big chance to stop the captain's run of Blueys. The "Hulk" had to chase kicks (due to number 2 above) but McPharlin did him on the day - an excellent learning experience I suspect. Nothing else to add as I was sitting with a couple of drunken buffoons and spent a large part of the day distracted by their vulgar behaviour. More of that on another thread.

That's a perfect example of how pointless the DE stat is. One of McKenzie's so-called 'efficient' disposals was his handpass to Jamar in the centre square. When Jamar was flat footed, standing still, and not calling for it. The result of that handpass was Jamar having to shovel it away to whoever was near him, causing a turnover and a Fremantle goal. I don't care what McKenzie's DE was (nor anyone else's, for that matter). Watching the game, he provided nothing to the side at all. That's the same trend he's been on for the last few years, nothing today indicated any change from that (we only need to go back one week to see a sub come on and show improvement on the previous year).

Hodge straight to tribunal Lewis 3 weeks but can plead guilty and reduce to 2. Dunn investigated for contact to Walters - dismissed Garland investigated for contact to pavlich - dismissed Head contact for Garland was absolutely accidental. Can't believe it was investigated Happy we won't see Hodge or Lewis - not that it makes any difference..................

Seriously JC, take a chill pill. Gary Lyon has been a great savant of our club and owes us nothing. It is ridiculous to blame Gary Lyon for our disappointments because he has chosen a different career path post playing than you would have liked. Gary Lyon is a loyal Melbourne man, we are lucky to have his media exposure. We would be even more irrelevant without it. The lesson we should have learnt is don't force someone to get involved who does not want to get involved because it leads to decisions like Mark Neeld. Let it go mate and your anger over other disappointments like JW. For the record, despite a poor 3 weeks, JW is still one of my favourites and one of the first I would pick every Thursday.

Ash, I quite understand your annoyance about some extreme views about this. If I put myself in the position if it was the MFC and not the EFC, I'm sure I would feel aggrieved by such extremes. I hope though if Melbourne had an administration who positioned itself to deal with such difficulties in such an adversarial way because of the egos and extreme personalities of the coach and President, I would campaign to have such people removed from office as they have by their actions been deliberately putting the future of my club in jeopardy. The fact is that if Evans and the advisors who were put into Essendon by demetriou had stayed, and not been rolled by Hird and Little, all this would have been over in 2013 to the satisfaction of everyone, including the AFL, ASADA and WADA. I have seen no such movement from aggrieved Essendon members for the removal of Hird and Little. It is they you should be taking your anger out on, not supporters of other clubs who want justice to be done in this instance, nor on courageous regulators like Ben McDevitt and John Fehey, nor crusading journalists like Caroline Wilson and Patrick Smith, all of whom have been subject to the most vile PR campaign launched by the Little regime which seems to think it is fine to trash reputations of these people because they are doing their jobs. It is Hird and Little you should be angry at - not anyone else. I for one will be quite happy to go along with a considered verdict from an unbiased umpire, as I think will most other dispassionate observers of this situation. Whether, the Hird and Little forces will, if the verdict goes against them, is another question altogether, but fortunately they will have no choice.

My biggest surprise reading this report was that Bail played. If he was fit enough to play for Casey, how did McKenzie get called up to the seniors before him? (Not that I think Bail is a long-term prospect for the seniors. I just have him well ahead of McKenzie).

Not everyone who has concussion misses next week. Salem kept playing then felt unwell according to Roos. Might mean later onset of a mild concussion, and if he doesn't have a history of head injuries he might be fine to play. I sure hope he doesn't miss because our kicking skills dropped by approximately 58% once he was subbed off. Plus he's having a great season and it would be a shame to break his continuity.

Gee only nine pages, Tyson has gone from next superstar to dud, Jones from A to B grade, Van Demon/Newton wrong choices etc etc....gee a week is sure a long time in footy We were competitive for 3 quarters against the in form midfield in the comp, we had a shocker in the 4th Take home the positives, Garlett, Grimes on Ballantyne, Brayshaw, Tommy Mc

Pederson had 8 marks, our 2nd best, with a couple of big grabs. While your big, skilful, speedy hero had 3, in junk time. Freo had Sandilands, Clarke, Pav and Tabener... Don't worry about being top heavy, worry about having players that give you something... like 8 marks.

Mackenzie getting a gig over Toumpas last round, then being made sub and not even tagging Fyfe the entire game, is one of the most perplexing decisions made by this coaching regime (It also speaks volumes about where Jimmy is rated by the coach.) What possible purpose did Jordie serve EXCEPT perform a hard tag on Fyfe? He proved, again, his disposal will never be AFL standard (and he should've had fresher legs than anyone else playing at that point!) and adds very little value on the field.

Now, I'll admit that Watts is really pushing his luck and I will not be in the least bit surprised if he ends up in the 2's this weekend. However, what really p!sses me off is cretins like yourself who take pleasure in the fact he is humiliated by the bronx cheers from the crowd (no doubt you were one of them if you had the heart to actually attend), and who take pleasure at being proven true over their predictions that he will fail. Not to mention the pr!cks who question his loyalty - he signed a 3 year deal in 2013 when he could just as easily have fielded offers when he had far more currency on the market and our club was an absolute basket case. Watts had no say in where he would be picked in the draft, Watts does not pick himself to play in the 1's each week. He was thrown to the wolves thanks to the club wanting to use him as a "marketing exercise" and ever since he has suffered at the hands of the press, hostile crowds and keyboard warriors. I'm genuinely surprised he has not given the game away completely... to me that says he has probably got more inner strength than his detractors, many of who would not have played footy at a truly competitive level.

Must have missed that bit. Where in the Tribunal's ruling does it find ASADA's case "hopelessly constructed"? All the tribunal found was that they couldn't be sure that the plant that makes TB4 actually made TB4. BTW, who the hell are you???

They will also be without Lake and Frawley which improves the odds and if we play for 120 min we can take it up to them.

Not just the court of public opinion. Of course we tanked - don't think that part of it was ever a point of contention. The contentious part was why we were being penalised and no-one else was.

well done red can we get you to repeat this at all breaks for the rest of the season?

Even if we did find out what difference would it make anyway? We made our decisions in a bad system. Moaning in hindsight is pointless.

Calls for Bail, keeping McKenzie, let's throw in Terlich for good old times of 60% disposal efficiency.

Just watched the replay and can confirm that Grimes WASN'T on Ballantyne apart from briefly at the start of the last quarter. Ballantyne didn't play as a stay at home small forward, and Garland had him for a majority of the first 3 quarters when Ballantyne was in their forward 50. Howe had Mayne until he went forward, and Grimes picked him up on occasions. Grimes was also on Neale when he kicked his goal in the last. So for anyone to say that Grimes held Ballantyne to 9 possessions is totally false.

Would have fathers blood stretch as the sub

Irrespective of the debate, it may be in Jack's best interest to walk away from the game at season end. The pressure on him must be enormous and must be affecting his life and his well-being. Irrespective of the circumstances, no-one deserves the attention and public ridicule that he goes through from week to week. At the end of the day, he is a decent human being that does not deserve it.

FWIW, I went down to the umpires race at half time as they left the field. I was in my Dees hat and was within a few feet of all 3. I said that they had not given the same decisions to the young Dees, that they gave to the name players of the Dockers. I said holding the ball is holding the ball no matter what jumper. I didn't swear or abuse them. They looked at me and grinned. I haven't done that in 30 years. Funny thing though, we got 8 frees to none in the next quarter.

In defence of Jack Watts.................... na, I've got nothing.

Practice prancing backwards, bouncing the ball straight up occasionally and getting their eyes checked daily at OPSM

Probably our most important player after Jones and Tyson. I believe I posted that he was more important than Frawley a few years ago, I would search for that but I said some other dumb stuff I don't want to read again IIRC...

Why don't umpires stay together for the whole session. If a team of umpires were allocated at the start of each season and umpired together for each match then they would get to understand each other and the way that they each interpret the rules. It would not stop the shockers BUT it would even out the inconsistency during games. If one has a bed day the whole group is sent to the bush the following week.

Nah, that one is hands down Mike Fitzpatrick...

For all the armchair experts, its easier to draft at picks 6-10 than picks 1-5. There is so much less pressure to get it right. Very few recruiters/clubs in the top 5 go against consensus - the fallout is too great. Happy to be reminded of when that last occurred - ie a club with a single top 5 pick taking someone clearly outside the top 5 [Edit: Stephen Hill is the closest I could find. Everyone thought Freo would take Rich] The other factor is past history. Wines was also very similar to Viney in that they are inside players with grunt. The last time we did that was with Sylvia and McLean. That didn't quite work out either. We have what we have. Stop harping on about who we could have taken. It is pointless.

How about you actually read the blogs, they are very balanced and not biased at all either way, they simply state what has happened and what will happen. They are also qualified practicing lawyers so they would know a thing or two about it. The example given about whether it was TB4 paints picture perfectly, surely if you have tests that say it probably is, and three people all saying it is, and these people are the manufacturer and the people who ordered it, then you could be satisfied that it was TB4. They also pointed out that Jones was a criminal judge used to working with beyond reasonable doubt so may have leaned unknowingly to what he was comfortable with. they raised the questions of whether this would be the same with a civil judge, or people experienced with dealing with comfortable satisfaction in the CAS setting. I am sure you wont accept any of this as you appear to one of the many EFC fans who still have your head buried and only heard not guilty and haven't delved any deeper. Can I suggest you do.

to your point - the dogs certainly don't have the talent of Sydney - but they brought the effort for the full game....

'Bob', the danger is the message may seem to be delusional like Hardwick's is. Personally I don't think he should say anything much at all. I don't like the negative nor the overly positive. Just say we were beaten by a better team on the day and we still have a bit of work to do. Move on....boring I know. Like you I don't like the negative message the players get by pumping up the opposition as some insurmountable force.

Thought JKH was good despite the turnover goal, has to be in the 22.

I don't buy the "they are the best team in the comp" argument. They have flogged us by 10 goals every game since 2012, which was before they were the league's best team, and in 2013 they were good, but hardly the "best". We continue to get pounded by them in the same area - the middle - and yesterday was as much a flogging in that area as I've seen. Vince, Jones and Tyson didn't give a puff the whole game. Even if we had have taken our chances, they were still a 10-goal better side, easily. They'd have found a way to still get ahead. As I mentioned earlier, the biggest disappointment was that the game seemed like an exercise in minimisation right from the opening bounce. We were NEVER in it. They were a 10-goal better side from the opening bounce, and dare I say that by the end of it they were more than an 11-goal better side. It felt more like a 20-goal loss. We never went out there to win it. It was always a case of, "how do we keep the margin as low as possible", and then when all else failed, everyone lost the plot, as Roos said. That was a different sort of loss compared to similar beltings in previous years. We didn't have the cattle or experience in 2012, 2013 and parts of 2014. Yesterday, they simply had zero urgency to win. It was astonishing how much uncontested ball they won. This team simply has no plan B if they aren't able to slow the ball down. I hate to harp on about Jones as I have in many other threads on here but once again he shows he also has no plan B. He was given a football lesson by players with less experience. I don't expect him to do everything but twice this season he has gone missing as soon as the pressure is on. It's been very disappointing by his standards. Once upon a time he'd simply "go through the motions", but yesterday and against GWS he never took that extra step to at least be commendable in defeat. We had no standouts yesterday. Garlett kicked three goals, but when? The delivery was shocking, granted, but they all felt like junk-time goals, even if they were so early in the contest. He's not damaging enough. As soon as we got a run, he missed two sitters. But he kicked them when we were 25-30 points down. We also didn't get a single goal, coast-to-coast off the rebound. Granted Freo are a very well-drilled, disciplined side defensively but our key players lacked concentration. Jones missed a handball target from 5 meters away on our defensive 50 when we had Tyson alone on the wing, Vince in the middle and Hogan alone across half-forward. That's a lack of effort and concentration. Twice now we have regressed back to the same sort of "we're not going to win so let's just wing it" mentality that we saw in round 2 against the Eagles last year. Freo gave us a football lesson. When it was 10 points they were dominating, and eventually the final margin normalised and reflected the actual story of the game.

Newton tackled a guy in the first quarter in our 50 and rolled, landed in his side. Push in the back call, goal to Freo.

Went to the footy in high spirits yesterday. The sun was shining and I was to meet a classy sheila for pre game drinks. Well it quickly went Sh ite as both Biffen and Moonie turned up at the same venue. Moonie looked as though he had just emerged from an op shop bin while Biffen was playing his respectable role and wearing a stolen tweed jacket. I could only assume that both of them had been lost in the outback recently as they began downing beers at a frantic rate. I held on to my wallet very tightly. They suggested enjoying the football together so, in deference to good manners I reluctantly agreed. However, my fellow members should thank me as we sat with the commoners in the outer. An interesting day. Moonie continued to gush his unbridled joy for "Wills and Kate". He even became teary once or twice. Biffen seemed surprisingly and unusually drug free so was determined to make up for it by alcohol consumption. Then they both became abusive and aggressive hurling quite vicious personal insults at all and sundry. Even nearby Demon supporters were appalled. I have no doubt that a review of the CCTV will see them both (rightly) banned. It is doubtful that my classy sheila will ever accompany me to the football again.

And was injured for nearly twelve months, he has only played 30 odd games, if he was in his fourth year he would be around 80, get your facts right before you correct someone else

God if not wines, why not McRae or stringer?

Yeah, give him another 100 games to teach him.... Brayshaw has played 95 games less and is already a better player and contributor. That speaks volumes.

Its a reasonable comparison between Watts and Brayshaw. If they went in the same draft and Brayshaw was at 2 we would all be screaming like the Ollie Wines comparison. Brayshaw is everything that Watts is not. Its time to admit that the Watts pick was a bust.

Can't read through all of this for sanity preservation purposes, but everything about McKenzie playing today was bizarre. Why play him if he's going to wear the green vest? To come on and tag someone for a quarter or two? I was puzzled by his inclusion on Thursday but assumed Roos had some master stroke tagging role for him, but alas. Strange stuff. With Salem out in the second half, we pretty much played that half without 8 of our best 25 or so players (Viney, Salem, Jetta, Dawes, Kent, Trengove, Frost and Petracca). Outside of the top 25 or so, we've got a handful of players I hope can be good in the future (Gawn, Toumpas, Stretch, ANB, McOz), a few who we know what we'll get from and won't be around in a couple of years (Bail, M Jones, McKenzie, Terlich, Fitzmagic), and a couple I don't hold out much hope for but probably need to be given a chance this year (Michie, Riley). If the side is going to be depleted like today and players are going to come in from the Casey side to play random roles, I'd rather they be from the first group.

I eventually worked that part out, but am still confused by the refreshing brutal honesty.

Without doubt, Gerard Healy, we would have won the '87 flag with him. Bob Johnston starred in WA, and played in for many years, leaving the Dees, age 25.