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It's about points, wins, and ladder position when you have a good team trying to reach finals.When you are jockeying for 16th... WGAF. We got back on the horse last week with some good footy, I am not about to cry into my beer because the Lions and the Saints have had a couple good wins. The Lions will be a good game with them in some good form and we should beat GWS at the G, but I am more interested in how we go against Hawthorn, WCE over there, and bloody NM in the last round.

Not all players are motivated by the same things. Some players wish to play their entire career with one club and be known/remembered for that. Those players are generally very popular with club supporters. Not all players have that desire. In short, players, like every poster here, have different priorities. That much is clear. Keeping it simple, my position is as follows. 1. I regard Frawley as a required player. I will be disappointed if he leaves the club. 2. The whole 'this is professional sport and loyalty means nothing anymore' argument is so bloody obvious that it doesn't even need to be stated. Yet we've got half the posters on this loop happy-clapping one another whenever someone states this. I absolutely get it. I just expect more of senior leaders in this club. I get that Frawley is entitled to adopt the approach he has, but it doesn't mean I respect him for doing so. 3. I am 42 years old. I do not have a poster of James Frawley on my bedroom wall. I'm not going to cry if he leaves. My position is not remotely based on the emotion of potentially being jilted by a 20s something football player whom I've never met. That some posters have suggested this about some here who demand loyalty is laughable in the extreme. In fairness, those posters are probably still in their teens. 4. Players circumstances differ. For a university educated player who's seeking to pursue a career after football, being a one club player, especially at a club like the MFC, actually makes perfect financial/commercial sense. For a player who has limited career aspirations after footy, I get that the size of the contract is far more of a priority than the whole 'one club' notion, which, to that player, is perhaps quite idealistic. 5. To a supporter (ie, me), I will always have more affection for those players who bleed for the club that I support than those players who merely see the club as an ATM facility. Jeremy Howe strikes me as a player who loves the club, and I really like him for that. Frawley, well, he's just become another player for me. And this taps into the reason as to why kids are meant to prefer Luke Skywalker over Boba Fett. That said, I hope Frawley stays - quality bounty hunters can be very effective operators. 6. The thing that really annoys me about Frawley is not actually that he might leave the club. He is obviously entitled to do whatever he thinks is in his best interests. What frustrates me is that his rhetoric is all 'loyal country boy', but his actions are clearly not aligned to that. In short, he's not being fair dinkum with the club and it's supporters and I find it unnecessarily disingenuous in the circumstances.

Does anyone honestly think that any of the Pies, Blues, Dons or Tigers fans would be happy about "winning" the wooden spoon? The "spoon" might give Frawley a good enough reason to take off and what about the effects on membership, sponsorship, reserved seating sales, foundation heroes, the corporate dollar, Auskick numbers, prime time TV slots, our fixture in general and the effects on the supporter group? No thanks. Also, we need to attract some A grade talent to the club by way of trades and/or free agency. We'd have trouble getting a 2nd glance from a prospective star with another spoon attached to our name ... and do we really want to burden another kid with the no.1 draft pick next to his name? We've come so far in terms of restoring pride and respectability - we need to finish the season off well. We just got to within a few points of a top 4 side away from home just last week - just imagine how we'd be all feeling if we'd got over the line? A lot of us here are rusted on. We won't be adversely effected one way or the other. However, we need new members and we need a number of our lapsed members to return. Forget 40,000 members - we need to have an aim of 50,000+ members. Another spoon would impede our progress.

Depends on how we round out the season, really. If the other teams happen to pluck a few more wins out of their rear ends and top us, then that's just bad luck. If it coincides with us playing limp footy, that would be upsetting. Still think there is no chance of us finishing last though.

Link me to posts that attack her based on gender? I haven't seen any.

If Chip has signed with a club already it would be pathetic of him not to inform the club. We need to plan for the future and if he is going that starts with trying out others. Also it affects our contract negotiations with other players and possible inclusions to the list. I can cop him leaving as that is his right but the club deserves honesty at this point of the season. We have been nothing but supportive to him and if he has committed elsewhere we deserve the truth.

Not only that RPFC, but many of them benefited from the same system they are arguing to deny us. Hawks and Pies built lists around PPs and Sydney, Gold Coast and GWS have had more concessions than anyone. Geelong is the only successful exception but they benefited from father son concessions that no longer exist.On top of this we are competing to retain our best players in the prime of their careers due to free agency. It is much harder now to climb the ladder than it was and we are coming from further back than any of those other teams were...

Yeh, the 70's. That's when Alves, Keenan and Wells went for glory and $$$'s to North and Carlton.

It's always important to have a bit of an eye on the big picture, 'rjay' Whilst a spoon wouldn't be as disastrous as in previous years (mainly because we're in good hands with Roos & PJ at the helm) nonetheless, it would still hamper us. I'm mainly looking at the angle of us being an attractive destination for prospective talent. The Frawley going or not going tosses up at least 2 scenarios - if he stays, we might then go after a free agent or 2 ... and if he goes, we might use the compo pick we get for him on a talented player or 2 from the other clubs. We need to be a club that players want to come to. And we almost certainly won't be getting a PP regardless of how we finish the season - people need to let that one go. If we couldn't get one last season, no club should ever get one. PJ should still apply for one ... just in case

I am used to us finishing at the bottom or near the bottom so either way I am over it.

In my line of work, if I took upon a job at a competitor, I'd hand in my four weeks notice, and would be sent on "gardening leave" for the duration of my four weeks on full pay, with my building access would be revoked. In other more "standard" jobs in the past, I'd give my four weeks notice, and spend that four weeks handing over and making sure those taking on my responsibilities were fully up to speed. In neither case would I have any reason (practically or morally) to lie to my employer. Frawley's position is comparable to my own - sure, he'd have to go on "gardening leave" too (i.e. no longer available for selection), but it would be on full pay and won't affect his contract at his new club. It's a small price to pay for doing the right thing by your club (employer). I agree with Redleg that it would be very low if he's signed already and is fibbing about it. I'm doubtful that it's the case anyway.

Twilight of career. We need to aim higher.

what i love about all the footy journos in this town is that they all think they know everything, and then when something truly momentous happens - buddy to sydney, peptides scandal, lyon defecting to freo - they have NO IDEA whatsoever. i'm convinced a vast majority get their rumour and innuendo straight from message boards such as demonland.

Agree. He hit the ball away off his wrist first. That meant that Wingard could never have marked the ball. Therefore the incidental contact to Wingard which he totally acted up, making it look like he was shot, did not constitute an illegal mark spoil. However if even after that the umpire felt constrained to award a free, how could 3 incompetent umpires miss the blatant drag around the neck to Pedersen, as he attempted to mark about 15 metres out straight in front. Even all of the commentators said it was blatant as did Murphy and Lewis on AFL360. Oh and by the way on TV the umpire is shown about 10 metres away staring straight at it.

Can't see how it's possible to be in a state that requires a priority pick WITHOUT stuffing something up. If the requirement is sitting stone last for half a decade without making a mistake in that time... Not gonna happen.

i say we stay well away from ty vickery. gutless wonder.

Not according to the Rhodes scholar yobbo. He is increasingly trashing his own reputation when his asinine views are at odds with respected voices such as Leigh Matthews and Essendon heroes Watson, Lloyd and Daniher.

There are very few sports in the world that don't give you a bye weekend. For AFL arguably one of the most physical it makes obvious sense to have 2 breaks. Extending the season one extra week doesn't bother me one bit and if it motivates the players and coaches to stop 'resting' guns I'm all for it.

The club will apply for a PP and has a strong case for it. Personally, I don't think we'll receive an early PP, however we may be a shot at an end of first round/ second round PP. Either that or the PP is well and truly dead and the AFL should label it that way. Last year the basis for the decision was that the list did not reflect our performance due to two prime factors (developing players + injuries), this year our ladder position truly reflects our list. FFS, we have won 36 of the last 171 games, annualising that figure suggests that we will win one more game for the year, leaving our total at 37 wins from 176 games (8 seasons), an average of 4.5 wins per season, or alternatively, a winning percentage of 21%. As a comparison, the only team with a lower winning percentage than us over the last 8 years is GWS (12.4%), Gold Coast has an annualised winning % of 30%. I’ve compared our last 8 seasons to teams in a similar position to us currently (cbf doing it for Richmond/ Carlton) – WB (47%), Brisbane (38.9%), St K (52.9%). The AFL stated that we had a group of highly talented youngsters that were developing, and said that we had a successful 2012 draft due to the amount of games played by 2012 draftees. Players listed in the article as talented and developing - Watts, Toumpas, Trengove, Tapscott, Blease, Barry, Grimes, Hogan, Viney, M.Jones, Terlich and Kent. Of the 12 players listed only 4 (Watts, Grimes, Viney and M.Jones) have played regular top level footy, with Hogan being the only one to suffer a serious injury. The AFL expected that a number of injured players were due to return - Clark (4 games), Dawes (12 games), Frawley (was playing injured). Injuries have been similar this year (Trengove, Hogan & Spencer), although the players this year are arguably less important to the teams success. Yes we have improved, however the stats above speak for themselves. It’s also likely we will have lost 2 players in the 2014 leadership group in the prime of their careers. Although it depresses me, it’s hard to make a case that we will be much better next season (which is what the AFL alluded to in not giving us a PP last season). Articles about the AFL’s decision: http://www.afl.com.au/news/2013-09-23/no-priority-pick-for-demons http://www.afl.com.au/news/2013-09-22/dees-priority-pick-in-doubt

I'd hate to suggest it but surely if we finish bottom 3 again an application for a priority pick will be made, we're sitting on 37 wins in 8 seasons

Ill be shattered if we win the spoon

It will be bad for membership if we finish last again. Die-hard Demons like us appreciate the improvements that have come this year, but for most of the punters who have yet to sign up and don't follow the footy media religiously, they're far more likely to view 2014 as just another sh*t season indistinguishable from the previous 7, than as a stepping stone to recovery. If we pick up the spoon this year, we can kiss goodbye to 40k membership.

Think Roos has the best history in the game of making right choices come trade time. Happy to go with his instincts.

Are you seriously going to right him off after 2 bad kicks in one game? You obviously haven't been paying much attention to him in any other games. One of the best rebounding half backs in the AFL.

Wines can run into 4 players and keep going.Viney needs alot of work on his disposal efficiency. Sorry but your wrong on this one.

he is actually worse by far. Drunken incompetence bbo at best. Caro at least can write.

Nah you've got it wrong 'luded! DC wont leave the borders of borewood and the one time Biffen tried to enter my premises the "lads" hunted him off.

Having said that I think Tyson at his best is as good as any of them, but he is a little bit hot and cold, Wines and Mcrae are playing like 150 gamers consistently, I know it's a topic to avoid on here, I have faith in Jimmy but wow would Wines be handy in our side

I have a gardener to nance around in my garden. Anyway .... Just woken up – had to have a kip after my “workout”. Well it wasn’t actually a workout – but interesting. Don’t understand how people enthuse about this gym business. I arrived at the “Leisure Centre” and met with Katie, my fitness consultant. She took me into a small office where I sat on a tiny chair and parked my guts on the table. Things apparently didn’t proceed according to the normal plan. Katie tried to take my blood pressure but the machine kept conking out and reading “error”. She gave up and started taking measurements. The problem, however, was that neither her arms, nor the tape would fit around my girth. The final straw was that I wound their scales off the meter. Katie then spoke to another fellow who made a smartarse comment about a weighbridge. Katie then said she’d consult with my doctor before going any further but offered to show me around the gymnasium before I left. In an odd way I immediately felt at home. Here were all these people in tight costumes with red faces, grunting and groaning. They were surrounded by or using a range of very odd machines and implements. Apart from the lighting, it was very much like the BDSM clubs that Biffen had arranged entre for me on occasion. I asked Katie where the whips and canes were kept but she didn’t answer and left without saying goodbye . I am guessing that information is reserved for members. All in all an interesting morning but if they expect me to start lifting those treadmill things , I wont be going back.

Why Jnr they would probably misplace those as well.

You actually are Caro hey

As far as im concerned, hirds willingness to inject himself and his players with drugs not yet approved for human use totally casts doubt over his playing days.

Well that certainly settles that debate. I give up.

I used to thoroughly enjoy 360 every night until the pathetic Essendon sympathizing became a disturbing ongoing trend from Robbo, and I realized the vested interests of the entire Fox network became more important to them than the prevailing of justice for a team of systematic drug cheats. Amazing how every media outlet in the country thrived like leeches in a blood bank during the Armstrong case, happy to sink the boot in and make his life a misery. Different story when their precious 9 games a week broadcast rights are at stake. Needless to say I haven't watched the show in months, apart from the Roos interviews on Mondays.

not sure there was much to lose

Unfortunately for Grundy he monstered a very weak draft class at the national championships and competed against a very weak SANFL ruck division, of whom James Meiklejohn was probably the best that year, which is saying something.. He has no football smarts, can barely take a contested mark, which is an inherent talent and isn't particularly effective as a forward. Most of these facts are the reason he slipped to pick 19 or wherever he went. He is an imposing physical specimen and a good athlete with terrific ground-level effort which has allowed him to compete and do some good things but at the moment his 43 clangers per 122 possessions is the worst ratio in the AFL and he leads the clangers per effective hitout stat amongst ruckman with daylight to the second worst. Im not saying he won't mould into a good player, but he is certainly not an incredible draft steal. Witts is a far more rounded and skilled player and it's why he is playing and why long-term he will most likely be a terrific player. He was an incredible steal.

As usual Moonie, you have run off at the gob, without being in full possession of the facts ( or should that be faculties?). I am legitimately on leave.

strange I have heard the opposite, he has interest from several clubs, and extremely keen to get home to Vic

er, od, you mean the mcc has done a good job

That is true, but with GC having so much to play for I can't see them dropping that one. Would make for an interesting etihad clash the following week. I have a feeling whoever gets pick one does a deal with GWS for Cameron- assuming its saints or Brisbane. GWS then use 1 for the best mid and we use our highest pick to get a highly fancied mid either from GWS or another club who has excess stock and wants a bite at one of the promising KPF stocks. Or of course we don't deal with anyone and keep our first and possible frawley comp for the draft. Hogan will be enough to cover frawley leaving if it was our intention to turn spud into a fwd

all very true nut from a logical point of view however my "loyalty" and connection to the club is based on emotion, like it or not as the relentlessnes of professionalism and money-first continues to march on, my loyalty and connectedness is gradually eroded it's not just me having these thoughts i'm starting to hear similar things from others afl footy is starting to become just another media-based reality show run for the sake of making money and exploiting a great and uniquely australian dream and no i don't blame the players maybe d-l and flanagan will understand

Oh noes! Finishing last instead of third last. What a disaster...

I can't resist it... I can't.... I know it is old, cliched and tired, but I can't resist. The Collingwood players weren't actually 'visiting' as such, they were there for their fifth attempt at Year 8...

With 7 matches during 2014 where we have scored 51 or less points it's apparent we are having more trouble scoring this season than any time in recent memory so I went through the records to check and found a few interesting facts. 1. We have yet to kick a century this year (best was 14.7.91 V Richmond. The last time we failed to kick a century during a season was 1953. 2. Our average score per match this season is 61.2 points. This is our worst since 1920 when we averaged 58.8 points during a 5 win 11 loss season. 3. Our leading goal scorer this season is Chris Dawes with just 16. Since 1920 the lowest winning tally was 20 by Barrie Vagg in 1966 The silver lining is our Average points against this season. At 83.8 points per game this is the best since 1971 when we conceded 81.4 points per game during a 11 and a half win season. Considering we reached the finals 12 times since 1971 our defence is holding up well.

"The last time we failed to kick a century during a season was 1953." And does that mean that we will make GFs for the next 7 years straight? And finals for the next 11? Bring it on !!!

Hypothetical: How would people feel if Roos only served his two years and Bomber Thompson took over from there?

Bomber seemed to show some interest in what Lingy was doing on 360 last night, asked Roosy when he last spoke to him. Thinking aloud, what was Bombers relationship with Lingy like at the Cats? Good I would assume. There is speculation that Bomber isn't interested in coaching full time without an exit strategy. What if he came on next year as Director of Footy, Lingy came on as assistant. Roosy can then do his two/three years and exit as a consultant and Lingy steps up with Bomber as a mentor, or bomber can step in for a year or two and then lingy steps up. Seems to fit with that 'succession' strategy that Roos constantly touts...

As I'm sure you know, the MFC are a 'special case' and I'd argue that out of all clubs, ours would still measure close to last when it comes to leadership across the board. I'm talking about players who can drive standards like Daniel Cross. Jones is the only player I can think of who has come through unaffected by our deplorable past 8 years or so. Nobody else on our list has demands as much of themselves and of others. Which is what leaders must do. So with that in mind we've drafted Cross and Vince. Dawes as well. Malceski would be a great get providing he stays fit for the rest of the year.. Obviously he's a great player and has a beautiful kick which would help our backline emensely as we have next to nobody with great skills playing back there. But more importantly, he's one of Sydney's leaders and experienced players and having him for any young player at our club would be hugely positive and inspiring. We don't have these players and we need them. Not all of them. Obviously ones that are still performing and who are injury free etc. For the posters talking about his knee injuries, do you have any idea how long ago he did his knee? Years. We'll be getting 1 or 2 more players like this for next year. I have no doubt about it.

That's exactly it. There's no doubt we've made some shocking decisions at the draft table in recent times, but pur major issue has been the lack of experienced, strong, inspiring, standard driving leaders to bring a young group of players through... Even the doggies have Boyd, Murphy, Cooney, Griffen, (Cross until last year)... We have Cross for one year and I ask anyone to go and have a chat to Dom Tyson and Jack Viney and ask how much of an influence Cross has been for them... And that's after one pre season. The doggies have four of them. It's no wonder their young mids are responding and playing terrific footy. Look at their leaders. We still need to bring in the right players from other clubs. Not like Neeld did. Not a scatter-gun 'I'll pick up any delisted Free Agent' approach. But we need to bring in a couple more players who will drive this club forward and for our young kids to learn from. Frawley, Dunn, Garland, Grimes, Jamar etc are products of shocking environments at the MFC and have suffered hugely because of it. We've still got a way to go. No matter what kids we pick up from the draft, we still need to adress our lack of experienced leaders at this club.

We could possibly get Malceski and O'Keefe for very little....