7 minutes ago, dice said:

44 goals in his first full season suggests otherwise. At age 22 in the most difficult position on the ground, mind you.

Oh and we drafted Bailey Laurie before him

It doesn't make him brilliant...just promising.

...and drafting Laurie before him doesn't make him one.

You either get this or you don't.

Forward craft is about SPACE .... height is quite secondary.

It's space and position.

Quite simply the 'opposite' of how we've gone about it for (too many) years !!

It will be addressed.... I sense this now.

Also... just being a capable forward isn't sufficient in guaranteeing hurt upon the scoreboard. It requires a well drilled, intelligent feed ( supply ) coming towards the sticks.

A gifted player can sometimes truly make a silk purse out of a sows ear but thats really hard yakka and far from reliable.

You need a system. Actually ...you need paths... that's plural !! You need options

Forward footy is about disassembling the ability of the opposition's defence to crowd and deny you your SPACE

Forward footy ( in a good team ) is never about ONE person. It's about choreography...about team-think.

There's a whole "book" on playing up front. Im not sure we've had it in our library for years tbh. I think Kingy has brought along his own copy.

Im looking forward (npi) to a much more dynamic and fluid forward arc.

Think we have more holes to fill than just a key forward spot these days.

No longer the missing jigsaw piece that many thought it was.

Good on the Demonland community for turning this into a proper discussion, but yeesh I hate it when people start these threads with a tone of 'the club is so dumb and I am so smat'.

We've invested heavily in young talls in recent drafts and it is unfortunate we're currently in a wait and see position on the progress of Jefferson and Van Rooyen. Especially frustrating with JVR because early on he was really looking like exactly what we were hoping for.

The 'if' scenario is a good one, though. If JVR and Jefferson can just become solid role-players in their respective styles, that's actually a really nicely matched pair of talls, which can complement throwing in an extra whether that third is a bullocking beast close to goal or something more mobile.

The likelihood of Max Heath spending a lot of time forward will give us a bit of genuine height which we haven't had since.... um... wow have we ever actually had a notably tall tall forward? Ben Brown for a couple of seasons and then?

Isn't Ben King a free agent next year? So there's a potentual solution if things really don't improve.

Heh, if we have Gold Coast's first pick next year, does that mean we also get the compensation pick?

I'm joking of course; we'll obviously be trading the death ride pick back to Gold Coast for Bailey Humphrey.

1 hour ago, Demons11 said:

You just need blokes who can kick goals, who cares if they are 200cm or 188cm

Blokes who can kick goals and physically compete a bit I'd be happy with.

10 minutes ago, layzie said:

Think we have more holes to fill than just a key forward spot these days.

No longer the missing jigsaw piece that many thought it was.

It's not the piece we've been missing.... lt was the picture

Love the passion but this is a bit silly! We should be elated with Taylor, Pickett & Mathew’s whom I think all as unique skills and strengths to a strong young list! We added Checkers, Berry is a project big — we may actually have too many tall fwds if you inc mid-sized McAdam, Fritta & Melky!

let’s hope we somehow can rookie Greeves or Noah Hibbins..

Edited 15 hours ago15 hr by Tolstoys Nudge

1 hour ago, rjay said:

I'll give you Cameron but Neale is hardly a brilliant key forward...

Can we have his 44 2025 goals? Wasted on him, it seems? 😉

Edited 15 hours ago15 hr by Timothy Reddan-A'Blew
Sorry rjay - I overlooked the 'brilliant'

16 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

It's not the piece we've been missing.... lt was the picture

We're missing the box lid.

3 hours ago, dazzledavey36 said:

JVR, Jefferson, Mihocek, Johnson, Kentfield, White, Heath, Melksham, Fritsch.

How many more tall forwards do you want?

It seems his thinking is back in the 70s. " kick it to snake!"

1 hour ago, beelzebub said:

Also... just being a capable forward isn't sufficient in guaranteeing hurt upon the scoreboard. It requires a well drilled, intelligent feed ( supply ) coming towards the sticks.

A gifted player can sometimes truly make a silk purse out of a sows ear but thats really hard yakka and far from reliable.

You need a system. Actually ...you need paths... that's plural !! You need options

Forward footy is about disassembling the ability of the opposition's defence to crowd and deny you your SPACE

Forward footy ( in a good team ) is never about ONE person. It's about choreography...about team-think.

There's a whole "book" on playing up front. Im not sure we've had it in our library for years tbh. I think Kingy has brought along his own copy.

Im looking forward (npi) to a much more dynamic and fluid forward arc.

Jeff whites recent video explains it very nicely

King has all the IP needed to implement a better structured forward half game.

And 2 of the biggest butchers in the middle have left the building

1 hour ago, dice said:

And here is last year's output from the tall forwards we do have:

Petty - 20 goals from 19 games

JVR - 16 goals from 16 games

Jeffo - 4 goals from 7 games

Johnson - 3 goals from 5 games

Heath - 3 goals from 4 games

Kentfield, White - 0 goals from 0 games

Only Mihocek had a decent return last year of 36 goals from 22 games. But he will be 33 in Feb.

So @Ugottobekidding has a point. We need a key forward that can take a mark and kick goals!

JVR had 29 and 30 in his first two seasons. Fritch normally around the 40 mark. The reason for the lower totals was simply due to bad entry into 50, shocking leading patterns, and the kick it to the top o the square game plan that sucked!

If gorilla key forwards with a turning circle similar to a cruise ship were still in vogue, then Steven May would still have a place in our backline

JVR will be fine, especially when we arent bombing it onto his head in the pocket as a "game plan"

59 minutes ago, Oxdee said:

Which forwards does hawthorn have?

Unintentionally ironic thread title.

The pendulum will perhaps swing back, but as it stands key forwards have never been less a factor.

Look at the contenders last year - only the crows fielded more than one genuine gun key forward (Thilthorpe, Fogarty and at a stretch Walker).

And the crows, despite finishing top of the ladder - checks notes - got knocked out of the finals in straight sets.

The premiers had two key forwards, but Hipwood had little impact all year and Morris, whilst he had a great season and could become an A grader, he's not there yet.

The cats had Neale, who is certainly no gun, and Cameron, who in any case plays a hybrid role.

The pies had McStay and Miochek as key forwards - solid players both but no superstars.

Just look at this year's draft for evidence of the waning importance of key forwards.

Of the 25 first round picks there was just one genuine key forward selected - Aidan Schubert who the Hawks selected at 23.

With Miochek and JVR we're fine for key forwards.

And we have Luker lurking in the wings and heath who at some stage might play the Jackson forward second ruck role, as could AJ if he can elevate his game (big if I have to say).

The irony in the title is that the issue hasn't been key forwards it's been how we have delivered the ball to those forwards - we've often had no way forward.

King has traded out two players who can't hit targets inside 50 and our first two picks were a fella who can change angles and hit targets from defence and a small/medium forward with good foot skillls who can play close to goal or at half forward where he can deliver it inside 50 (and also free up koz, one of our best field kicks when he's not trying to be too cute, to play more mid time and therefore have more opportunities to be kicking inside 50).

Instructive that with our third pick we went with another small forward.

To me that also points to the waning influence of key forwards in footy atm (and gives us a clue on the method King wants us to implement - move it fast, get it inside 50 quickly, ideally hit up a leading target, but if not get it to ground at let the medium and smalls go to work).

Contested marks inside 50 are a complete bonus now, as to a lesser extent are goals - the number one KPI for key forwards ATM is ensuring the oppo defenders, in particular their intercept markers, don't mark the footy and the ball is brought to ground.

That doesn't take quite the same skillset as in the heyday of 100 goals a year key forwards.

What's needed is small and medium forwards and mids who can push forward to take marks inside 50 in space and/or kick goals.

Brisbane is the exemplar of that shift with their huge raft of such players.

Edited 13 hours ago13 hr by binman

Mihocek will make more difference than any draft pick or anyone else available.

And I’m happy to buy all shares in Kentfield especially if he gets through preseason.

Trelly P is here to play right away if he has a good summer and he’s going to put speed on the ball.

The lack of midfield reinforcements is more concerning but aside from a few Tracc throw back games we didn’t lose much.

There are 3 strong factors in a forwards kicking goals (leaving aside their actual set shot accuracy).

1. Leading patterns and making space (as beelzebub has so eloquently put it above)

2. Getting the ball in quickly before the defence has setup their zone and effectively closed off leading lanes and basic 1 on 1's

3. The last kick into the F50 - being well weighted ad strongly to the forward's favour

Only one of them has anything to do with the actual forward themselves. Year on year we have been pretty woeful at the second 2 and have relied on winning contest, taking field position and weight of numbers of forward entries. When we had the defensive structure to back that up it went pretty okay but it never made our forwards look good. They were always working in crowded forward 50s with little space to work and, in general, fairly average delivery. Our execution of point 3 was not that great either and too many of our best midfielders had extremely low % effective kick.

I don't think we know whether we have some gold in our forwards or not, so my sense is that the strategy is to fix 2 and 3 and spend a season assessing whether we have what we need up there. The OP may be right, we may desperately need a quality KPF, I just don't think we can know that right now. My gut feeling is that we will play Mihocek and at least one other KPF with this new game plan. Mihocek is a known quantity, if he is getting goals and others aren't, that tells us something. If no one is getting goals that tells us something else.

2 hours ago, dice said:

Melksham (186cm) and Fritsch (188cm) are not tall forwards

Fritta certainly plays the tall forward type role and not the smaller high pressure forward role.

Most of his goals come from marks or when the ball is given to him.

Melk is more the hybrid, but getting slower and in his last year.

We've got too many tall forwards on the list ... a couple/few are surplus to needs and will spend most, if not all of their time at Casey

The game has changed dramatically and the long bomb is fast becoming a thing of the past ... so what is needed are small/medium type forwards who can create space and mids who can hit the scoreboard (see Brisbane)

So drafting 2 non talls forwards was the right move

Mihocek & JVR will be our mainstays and there won't be a 3rd. In fact, if we play a 2nd ruck, JVR could miss out and we go with medium/smalls (predominantly)

Interesting to understand the strategy as correct apart from JVR & Miachek excuse the spelling who’s our next big fwd , not convinced on Jefferson.. since 22 tge premiership teams have had a big fwd cats, lions with the pies more hybrids, im surprised no other mids were taken considering we lost trac & Oliver, many have eluded the up & coming, time will tell , we waited 57 years what last another 5-10

I would be elated if key forward was the main issue needing addressing (that implies we are dominant in other key areas of the ground)

but

my fear is the midfield. Last year Casey midfield was not putting pressure on Melbournes midfield (indicating a lack of depth) and half of them are gone anyway!!! Add to this our two best midfielders are gone and Viney is aging quickly - then there's quite a gap appearing.

Forwards rely on what happens up the field, so first priority is to have ball winners in the team as without the ball; elite kicks, speed, contested marking, goal kickers, become irrelevant.

1 hour ago, beelzebub said:

You either get this or you don't.

Forward craft is about SPACE .... height is quite secondary.

It's space and position.

Quite simply the 'opposite' of how we've gone about it for (too many) years !!

It will be addressed.... I sense this now.

Pretty much on the money, you do need tall forwards but all about separation, delivery and structure.

Not specifically related to taking a KPF at the draft, but:

A lot of people can't stand Petty but his season as a forward was slightly underrated, and if anything his stint as a defender in the early rounds was what let him down this year.

Sure he only kicked 20 goals from 19 games which doesn't look good.

But if you take a further look under the hood - he only played 13 games as a full time forward, 1 game (GC) where he was concussed before half time and 1 game (Ess) where he played up forward for a cameo appearance. So if he played all 23 games as a full time forward he's kicking 34 goals for the year which is quite satisfactory IMO.

We have a number players (around 5 or 6) who have kicked 30 goals in a season. Compare that to GC who have only 3 players on their list (King, Long and Jamarra)