POSTGAME: Rd 05 vs Brisbane

[BLWNBA 353]

Last night was disappointing, no doubt. But I'll hold judgement - for the moment. 

Much has been said in this topic thread that I agree with so I wont necessarily rehash the conversation around whether Oliver should've played and the performances of the forwards. 

However, if we're not able to make it 2 - 0 against Geelong and Carlton, then I think some alarm bells need to be raised (coupled with the losses to Sydney and Brisbane). If that were to eventuate, I think it's fair to say there's a body of work that suggests we're off competing with the teams likely to finish around us in the 1 - 6 ladder positions. 

Edited April 11 by BLWNBA

[SPC 2,807]

Didn’t post last night, but have a few observations..

Sparrow tries his heart out and deserves some credit.

Rivers needs to spend more time in the midfield, we need to backfill his role.

Tracc tried to force energy last night, was clearly tired, but he tried to get us going.

Probably the worst game I’ve seen from Viney. He looked disinterested in the first half.

Kolt was okay. Tried hard and probably found the pace a bit much. It was a good debut and he will take the opportunity next time and become a player. 

Lever is a liability when May is not covering his man or dangerous space. He is slow, fumbly and makes errors when pressure is on.

It was a very young small defence last night, who couldn’t cope with all the supply, they will learn.

All in all a bit disappointed, but you have off days sometimes and it’s part of sport and life.

Need Kos and McAdam both playing together post break will be a great addition. Petty and Brown shouldn’t play in the same side in my opinion. We are best when we go smaller and find targets, not bomb it!

Have a good weekend all. Go Dees!

[John Demonic 4,806]

44 minutes ago, Dee Zephyr said:

It was evident at the ground that Brisbane spread much faster from the stoppages and their ball movement was efficient and crisp on the follow up. This reminded me of our loss to Essendon last year where we simply couldn't cover the ground quick enough.

Another observation was that some of our players were struggling to even run off to the bench. On the night they were too good for us.

I think the question about whether the Lions fast spread and surgical precision by foot is our kryptonite or whether it was our fatigue, is going to be unanswered until the finals. To me though, their game last night would take a herculean effort from our team firing on all cylinders just to be competitive and take it to the death where a bit of luck and a few plays from your stars can make the difference. At least they've given us a good lesson.

The good thing to come out of this for a neutral, would be that this season might genuinely have 6+ flag contenders. 

Edited April 11 by John Demonic

[leave it to deever 15,480]

The fwd line pressure wasn't very strong with one or two tackles from all fwds combined.

[demon3165 1,920]

3 minutes ago, SPC said:

Didn’t post last night, but have a few observations..

Sparrow tries his heart out and deserves some credit.

Rivers needs to spend more time in the midfield, we need to backfill his role.

Tracc tried to force energy last night, was clearly tired, but he tried to get us going.

Probably the worst game I’ve seen from Viney. He looked disinterested in the first half.

Kolt was okay. Tried hard and probably found the pace a bit much. It was a good debut and he will take the opportunity next time and become a player. 

Lever is a liability when May is not covering his man or dangerous space. He is slow, fumbly and makes errors when pressure is on.

It was a very young small defence last night, who couldn’t cope with all the supply, they will learn.

All in all a bit disappointed, but you have off days sometimes and it’s part of sport and life.

Need Kos and McAdam both playing together post break will be a great addition. Petty and Brown shouldn’t play in the same side in my opinion. We are best when we go smaller and find targets, not bomb it!

Have a good weekend all. Go Dees!

My only knock on Rivers is his execution when rushed not a great thinker when in tight but has the run and can kick long with some depth.

[640MD 2,808]

A bit flat this morning, like my coffee.

why use 3 games in 13 days as an excuse

normally it’s 3 games 15 days 

started well enough, Kolt had 4 touches but no stat after 3 minutes or so. He needs more work but will fit right in. 
Oliver  just NQR like Petty for the first half,

we kicked the first goal, then got run over by a truck until Brisbane relaxed, so for almost 3 quarters we kicked 2 more they got 10.  They were “on”, we were flat and slow.  Too much effort in Adelaide?

thought AnB and TMac had good games. Windsor so quick then kicked to them. Tracca did the same to an open F50. 
BBB had not much to do in the first half but the ball never got there. ditto Fritta and Petty.  perhaps positional changes were needed before half time.  But they beat us across the centre and the midfield our backs always under pressure.

Brisbane played us well

[leave it to deever 15,480]

2 minutes ago, 640MD said:

A bit flat this morning, like my coffee.

why use 3 games in 13 days as an excuse

normally it’s 3 games 15 days 

started well enough, Kolt had 4 touches but no stat after 3 minutes or so. He needs more work but will fit right in. 
Oliver  just NQR like Petty for the first half,

we kicked the first goal, then got run over by a truck until Brisbane relaxed, so for almost 3 quarters we kicked 2 more they got 10.  They were “on”, we were flat and slow.  Too much effort in Adelaide?

thought AnB and TMac had good games. Windsor so quick then kicked to them. Tracca did the same to an open F50. 
BBB had not much to do in the first half but the ball never got there. ditto Fritta and Petty.  perhaps positional changes were needed before half time.  But they beat us across the centre and the midfield our backs always under pressure.

Brisbane played us well

My impression is sometimes teams get ahead of themselves.

We were very happy with our eight points in Adelaide.

And rightly so.

But perhaps a bit of complacency slipped in.

I do recognize we were tired. We looked it.

 

[BLWNBA 353]

7 hours ago, layzie said:

See this is the slight problem I'm having with it all: 

The 2nd and 3rd quarter pur performance was literally at the pits of hell, we were not even marking lace-out balls. Then when the game had been buried with a shovel we kick a few junk time goals.

And that's nice, don't get me wrong that's really nice and no-one would rather minimise the damage of a loss than me. However there have been many, many games in the last few years where this has happened: Rd 2 against them last year, Gather Round against Essendon last year, Geelong games at the cattery, I could pick out a number of games where we were heading for a 10 goal loss and escaped it. Which is great, all you want is a competitive team but it's starting to mask the cracks a bit and some people instantly forget about the glaring problems we were facing 30 minutes earlier. I'm not going to be happy about our midfielders waving the white flag for the key moments of the game just because they looked ok when the heat was off.

It was no different tonight, while I was happy we fought back I just knew that there were going to be some who were ready to use it as a crutch. I do wonder about the kind of reality check our team and coaching staff would have if we actually did get belted one day.

This is 100% on the money. I've said previously that this even rings true of our 2022 and 2023 campaigns. The W/L column has masked several glaring areas of deficiency with our game that have needed addressing for a long time. We're potentially seeing that now too with the wins over the Dogs, Hawthorn, Port and Adelaide - yet the indicative and true form could be that seen in the Sydney and Brisbane games. 

I'm not throwing the baby out with the bath water yet, I'm somewhat more positive overall about this season than the previous two. But as I said in another post, we'd want to go 3 - 0 against Richmond, Geelong and Carlton to be able to suggest the winning form we've seen this season is the 'true form'.  

[Demon Dynasty 15,521]

12 minutes ago, leave it to deever said:

The fwd line pressure wasn't very strong with one or two tackles from all fwds combined.

Yep our only pressure up forward last night is Chandler & to a lessor degree Roo.  And not necessarily saying they were at their best last night in this regard either.

Just going on their general pressure and where that sits over a body of work.

Kozzy is our best pressure player up forward and has been for some time.  His loss, in terms if retaining the ball in that area or making it difificult for the oppo to exit as well as disrupting their set plays, should not be underestimated.

Edited April 11 by Demon Dynasty

[BLWNBA 353]

59 minutes ago, Dee Zephyr said:

It was evident at the ground that Brisbane spread much faster from the stoppages and their ball movement was efficient and crisp on the follow up. This reminded me of our loss to Essendon last year where we simply couldn't cover the ground quick enough.

Another observation was that some of our players were struggling to even run off to the bench. On the night they were too good for us.

Yeah, agree with you entirely. I think our spread - especially our defensive spread from a contest, has been an issue over the past few seasons IMO. It's pretty damning. We came underdone against Sydney in OR in much the same way. It's problematic and the good teams are able to easily punish us. 

It also punishes the backline with repeat entries able to come in so easily, and quickly. We're fortunate to have a back six that's able to hold up as well as it does. 

[titan_uranus 22,383]

3 minutes ago, BLWNBA said:

This is 100% on the money. I've said previously that this even rings true of our 2022 and 2023 campaigns. The W/L column has masked several glaring areas of deficiency with our game that have needed addressing for a long time. We're potentially seeing that now too with the wins over the Dogs, Hawthorn, Port and Adelaide - yet the indicative and true form could be that seen in the Sydney and Brisbane games. 

I'm not throwing the baby out with the bath water yet, I'm somewhat more positive overall about this season than the previous two. But as I said in another post, we'd want to go 3 - 0 against Richmond, Geelong and Carlton to be able to suggest the winning form we've seen this season is the 'true form'.  

Goodwin spoke about our problem with territory after the last two wins. 

We know we aren’t playing as well as we want. I don’t think the FD are under any illusions about that. 

[Lord Travis 10,167]

Our tall forwards remain a major problem. I know the ball isn't going in there cleanly for them, but they need to create more leads so there's movement and space to utilize. Petty, JVR and Brown are all battling for impact. If we had any other options in the VFL you'd drop Petty. JVR has been decent in the ruck but poor up forward. His marking skills seem to have abandoned him. He gets to so many but then has them slip through the hands like Chris Dawes used to.

The thing that [censored] me though is surely as a forward getting manhandled, you can position yourself to earn a free kick. Chance says you'll earn a free kick eventually, to not earn one actually takes effort haha It's mental how many contested they lose without changing tactic. 

[BLWNBA 353]

1 minute ago, titan_uranus said:

Goodwin spoke about our problem with territory after the last two wins. 

We know we aren’t playing as well as we want. I don’t think the FD are under any illusions about that. 

My comment wasn't in reference to internal dialogues, it was referencing the supporter and much of the commentary that's been on this forum post 2021. 

[Lord Travis 10,167]

No Kozzie no Melbourne. 

He's the barometer. His pressure in the forward half is missed and we've lost both matches this year  he's missed now in similar fashion.

Also miss the ability to change up a losing midfield combination. He needs to reel in the rough stuff now and just stay on the field.

[Demon Dynasty 15,521]

10 minutes ago, BLWNBA said:

This is 100% on the money. I've said previously that this even rings true of our 2022 and 2023 campaigns. The W/L column has masked several glaring areas of deficiency with our game that have needed addressing for a long time. We're potentially seeing that now too with the wins over the Dogs, Hawthorn, Port and Adelaide - yet the indicative and true form could be that seen in the Sydney and Brisbane games. 

I'm not throwing the baby out with the bath water yet, I'm somewhat more positive overall about this season than the previous two. But as I said in another post, we'd want to go 3 - 0 against Richmond, Geelong and Carlton to be able to suggest the winning form we've seen this season is the 'true form'.  

A loss doesn't bother me so much given the context of the previous two weeks but it was the ease with which the oppo played and scored, for three entire quarters.

That's a massive concern in itself and should be sending some sort of alarm through to the coach & the entire FD. 

Let's not try and guild the lilly here, we were taken apart by a much better opponent on the night coming off a 7 day break.

Edited April 11 by Demon Dynasty

[Kick_It_To_Pickett 2,930]

I had a bad feeling all week about this match, knowing we had a lot of guys sore and banged up. 
 

what I cannot stomach Is Goodwin’s inability to change the tactics in-game again. We allowed far too much uncontested ball. Their ability to simply pick their way uncontested from their backline to ultimately hitting up a leading forward was really concerning. 
 

 

[layzie 28,882]

5 minutes ago, Lord Travis said:

Our tall forwards remain a major problem. I know the ball isn't going in there cleanly for them, but they need to create more leads so there's movement and space to utilize. Petty, JVR and Brown are all battling for impact. If we had any other options in the VFL you'd drop Petty. JVR has been decent in the ruck but poor up forward. His marking skills seem to have abandoned him. He gets to so many but then has them slip through the hands like Chris Dawes used to.

The thing that [censored] me though is surely as a forward getting manhandled, you can position yourself to earn a free kick. Chance says you'll earn a free kick eventually, to not earn one actually takes effort haha It's mental how many contested they lose without changing tactic. 

Something the Brisbane forwards did to perfection. 

[Redleg 37,635]

5 hours ago, WalkingCivilWar said:

Wow, you sure are hellbent on ditching Clarrie. This is the second thread tonight in which you’ve suggested we trade him. You say he’s a country mile away from the player “we know he can be” which begs the question: why would we trade him when we know what he can (and will again) be? He’s playing with the fingers of one hand strapped together ffs. 

Anyone who suggests trading or demoting Clarry, who is playing injured, has to be joking or trolling.

Clarry is the best contested ball player I have ever seen, in well over 60 years of watching footy.

[BLWNBA 353]

2 minutes ago, Kick_It_To_Pickett said:

I had a bad feeling all week about this match, knowing we had a lot of guys sore and banged up. 
 

what I cannot stomach Is Goodwin’s inability to change the tactics in-game again. We allowed far too much uncontested ball. Their ability to simply pick their way uncontested from their backline to ultimately hitting up a leading forward was really concerning. 
 

 

And this is particularly apparent when teams get runs on, which leads to the question, is it because of:

- Pig-headedness?

- A lack of of risk appetite? an aversion to risk? 

- Poor game-day tactics?

- holes in the list? 

- poor game-day selection? or

- a combination of the above? 

This is a lingering issue that's been around for the whole of Goodwin's tenure as head coach IMO. 

[layzie 28,882]

4 minutes ago, Demon Dynasty said:

A loss doesn't bother me so much given the context of the previous two weeks but it was the ease with which the oppo played and scored, for three entire quarters.

That's a massive concern in itself and should be sending some sort of alarm through to the coach & the entire FD. 

Let's not try and guild the lilly here, we were taken apart by a much better opponent on the night coming off a 7 day break.

You really only have to look at the goal they scored from the centre clearance straight after Brown kicked his to start the 4th quarter.  

The game wasn't in the balance at that point but these are the moments I care about when they are. Center bounce, 50-50, who's coming up with the clearance when it matters. 

[Demon Dynasty 15,521]

8 minutes ago, Lord Travis said:

Also miss the ability to change up a losing midfield combination. He needs to reel in the rough stuff now and just stay on the field.

Absolutely.  We were pantsed in the middle last night.  

[RedFox 393]

Pretty good turn out for a cold thursday night, 43k - well done Dees fans.

Similar observations to most around the game - we looked tired and listless for most of the night. No burst, smashed in the clearance and put our defence under enormous pressure. Clayton looks a million miles off the pace at the moment, definitely feeling the impact of his interrupted pre-season. Forward line needs to gel. Missed the X factor of Kozzie...similar to the Sydney game in that regard.

Some positives to take - Windsor, this kid has got some serious courage. While everyone seemed to be treading water he was the only one to tuck the ball under the arm and go. Yes he made some errors but he's not alone. That dash through the guts and the kick he pulled at the last minute to set up Kolt was a glimpse into the future. He's 18 everyone...let that sink in. 18! Can't wait to watch his career unfold.

Kolt a bit overawed but can't question his intensity, albeit in short bursts.

Welcome time for the bye, chin up everyone we're well positioned.

[layzie 28,882]

2 minutes ago, Redleg said:

Anyone who suggests trading or demoting Clarry, who is playing injured, has to be joking or trolling.

Clarry is the best contested ball player I have ever seen, in well over 60 years of watching footy.

Yep it is nonsense.

Get the guy healthy, that's all I ask. 

[Swooper1987 2,746]

Hardly the end of the world.  Brisbane are an excellent team, very unlucky not to be the reigning premiers.  Their "poor" start to the season has been significantly overblown.  They have won the inside 50 count in every game they've played.  A couple of teams have kicked insanely accurately against them. They were never out of form as the media would have us believe.  We got beaten where it matters most, and beaten easily.  The limp performance of our mids was the reason we lost.  Neale, Dunkley, Rayner and McCluggage (with Berry) absolutely smoked (to use a Steven May term) Petracca, Oliver, Viney and Sparrow.  That is the game in a nutshell.  The odds of our midfield being beaten that badly again, all on the same night, are slim indeed.

For those criticizing anything at all about Gawn's game last night, have a good hard look at the replay and then yourselves.  McInerney is a good AFL ruckman who is as honest as the day is long and Max tore him apart. Gawn's tap work is elite.  We lost a lot of clearance from our mid's fumbles, overpossessing or simply actually losing contest.  If Gawn didn't play last night, that's a 10 goal plus loss everyday of the week. 8 clearances to the big man was better than anything anyone else on our side could do.

McDonald is looking like Tom of old (final year of his contract - he's done this before!) Kudos to him.  Might have been worth a shift forward at half time, but in reality our defence held up well given the amount of ball they saw.  Can understand why Goodwin didn't shift him.

Pickett is a huge loss, as we all know.  We can't afford for him to be missing games. We look completely different with him out there. Expecting a big bounce after the bye.

[titan_uranus 22,383]

5 minutes ago, BLWNBA said:

And this is particularly apparent when teams get runs on, which leads to the question, is it because of:

- Pig-headedness?

- A lack of of risk appetite? an aversion to risk? 

- Poor game-day tactics?

- holes in the list? 

- poor game-day selection? or

- a combination of the above? 

This is a lingering issue that's been around for the whole of Goodwin's tenure as head coach IMO. 

How often have sides actually got runs on against us over the last few years, though?

And a option missing from your list above is "backing our system in", which has worked far more often than not. We have multiple examples of turning in-form slumps around under Goodwin, including one not even a year ago against Brisbane on the G.

When it works, we praise the players (and sometimes the FD) for digging deep. When it doesn't work, we inevitably get the "stubborn Goodwin" stuff.