TMac & Brown

[binman 42,532]

6 minutes ago, BaliDemon said:

Guys & Dolls, they’re just list management questions. Please try to resist attacking me for posting them and have a good old debate about the topic at hand. Thanks. BD.

These are the only 'questions' you have posed in this thread:

Who was responsible for it? (in reference to your assertion that 'Any way you look at it that’s a list management howler. Worse than the Grundy trade if we’re being honest' that frames any response)

Will it hamstring our chances to win the flag next year?

Should we try to come to an arrangement with at least one of these players to call time on their careers?

These are not genuine questions to create reasoned debate. 

They are 'questions' designed to to create angst. 

Straight out of the troll handbook.

The same book that Tucker 'i'm just asking questions' Carlson has on his bedside table. 

[JimmyGadson 3,455]

Agree that keeping both on the list is too much of a risk given their inability to get on the park. 

But it's similarly risky to force both into retirement..

I'd like to keep T-Mac (regardless of how infuriating his form can be), in the hope that he completes a full and uninterrupted pre-season and finds his best form again.

[TeamPlayedFine39 8,471]

Getting Brown from the Roos is a 4 year deal.  No brainier.  Premiership.  Good list management.

Tom McDonald in September 2021 was a 28 year old key position forward, two weeks away from winning a premiership.  He was available as a free agent.  He gets a three year deal.  No brainier. Good list management.

Injuries, bad luck and some hindsight make the back end of these deals look bad, but these contracts are on the books at every club, especially ones in the premiership window trying to attract and retain senior players.

Wouldn’t be surprised if Brown called time on his career, but expect McDonald to see out his contract.

 

[JimmyGadson 3,455]

4 minutes ago, binman said:

These are the only 'questions' you have posed in this thread:

Who was responsible for it? (in reference to your assertion that 'Any way you look at it that’s a list management howler. Worse than the Grundy trade if we’re being honest' that frames any response)

Will it hamstring our chances to win the flag next year?

Should we try to come to an arrangement with at least one of these players to call time on their careers?

These are not genuine questions to create reasoned debate. 

They are 'questions' designed to to create angst. 

Straight out of the troll handbook.

The same book that Tucker 'i'm just asking questions' Carlson has on his bedside table. 

You may not like them ol' Binners.

But they're genuine questions. 

I understand you, your PA and your followers dislike any negative feedback on anything MFC. 

But the second two are genuine, fair, questions.

[Little Goffy 14,413]

Brown and McDonald were recruited/retained to give us mature talls in our forward line, which without doubt won us a premiership.

Similarly, they were held on to through 2022/23 because we needed mature talls up forward to provide steady targets and experience while our investment in tall kids through the draft took time to progress.

On both counts, it was the right decision to make.

Having both of them on the list ought to have provided us depth, but in the end they produced simultaneous terrible seasons for various reasons, and then of course every player sent into the cursed zone was also hit by the FUstick.

There's a case for paying them out into retirement, and there's also a reasonable case that if our list is turning over enough anyway then there's no point kicking them to the curb for the same eventual contract cost, just to gain pick 64 and 82 in a draft described as strong but not deep.

Currently already four senior list players on the way out (Dunstan, Hibberd, Grundy, Jordon) while Brown and McDonald are two more possible among multiple other veteran exits.

[BaliDemon 401]

16 minutes ago, binman said:

These are not genuine questions to create reasoned debate. 

They are 'questions' designed to to create angst. 

They are absolutely genuine questions, driven by a motivation to get better and do better. If questions create angst in your mind then that’s kind of sad for you. Life ‘ain’t all sunshine and rainbows. 

I don’t mind Tucker Carlson at times. Pretty brave the way he doesn’t kowtow to mainstream/sheep media narratives if you ask me. His exponentially growing Twitter following of millions and now approaching hundreds of millions of views, would seem to agree. 

Wouldn’t life be boring if we all thought the same pre-programmed way? Now that’s a prospect to feel angsty about. 

Edited September 22, 2023 by BaliDemon

[Stiff Arm 4,419]

1 hour ago, Bring-Back-Powell said:

 

Would be around the $650K mark at a guess.

I would assume the club and player will come to a financial settlement and he retires in the coming weeks.

Not sure the club will be keen on nursing him for the third time in four years, albeit did get a significant pay off in 2021.

Highly, highly doubt BBB or Tmac are on north of $500k

[Demonsterative 3,020]

18 minutes ago, JimmyGadson said:

You may not like them ol' Binners.

But they're genuine questions. 

I understand you, your PA and your followers dislike any negative feedback on anything MFC. 

But the second two are genuine, fair, questions.

Its all about the attitude, not the questions JD. This dude is here to entertain himself by riling up others on the site. Time to ignore any of his content and move on.

 

 

[BaliDemon 401]

1 minute ago, Demonsterative said:

Its all about the attitude, not the questions JD. This dude is here to entertain himself by riling up others on the site. Time to ignore any of his content and move on.

Not at all. Passionate Dees man here. I’m posting positive, negative and/or neutral comment in a range of threads, from coaching appointments to the draft and trade discussion. I love it, driven by a desire to see us win another flag. 

If you don’t enjoy reading my posts ignore them or use your ignore function. Easy. 

[HBDee 360]

Few mushrooms about.

[640MD 3,349]

1 hour ago, Pennant St Dee said:

I think we have another troll , who appears every school holidays 

Joined last Sunday      got an answer for it all !    like the avitar though

[dazzledavey36 54,148]

2 hours ago, Demons11 said:

People saying that getting rid of them will free up money are wrong.  The Players don’t just walk away from contracts and not get paid.  They have a year left and I dare say both will see out their contracts, unless an agreement is reached and the funds will still be included in the TPP.

If they walk away from the club it means there is an agreement between player and club that they're paid out in full of every cent remaining of their contract.

So yes, it would free up cap space immediately. 

[Sir Why You Little 36,946]

1 hour ago, binman said:

These are the only 'questions' you have posed in this thread:

Who was responsible for it? (in reference to your assertion that 'Any way you look at it that’s a list management howler. Worse than the Grundy trade if we’re being honest' that frames any response)

Will it hamstring our chances to win the flag next year?

Should we try to come to an arrangement with at least one of these players to call time on their careers?

These are not genuine questions to create reasoned debate. 

They are 'questions' designed to to create angst. 

Straight out of the troll handbook.

The same book that Tucker 'i'm just asking questions' Carlson has on his bedside table. 

Nothing wrong with any of those questions 

We have just come off 2 Finals Series without a win 

tough decisions must be made 

[poita 3,889]

Is everyone complaining about Brown & McDonald having contracts for next year, also happy that Gawn & May have contracts for 2025 when they will be 34 and 33 respectively?

This club has a history of pushing out contracts to free up salary space, and it is going to bite them in the [censored] at some point. I don't care how good a player they have been, no ruckman should be about to turn 32 and have a 2 year contract in his back pocket.

And nobody is going to walk away from a contract worth $400K - $500K just because it doesn't suit their employer any more. Anyone who says otherwise is kidding themselves.

[monoccular 17,410]

There is a lot of discussion in other threads re the need for a new forward coach. 
Here we have contracted for another year a Coleman medalist who looks unable to play. A well respected intelligent communicator who has great connections with the forward line. 
Is there some way this could be a win win win?

Edited September 22, 2023 by monoccular

[Demonland 71,204]

6 minutes ago, monoccular said:

There is a lot of discussion in other threads re the need for a new forward coach. 
Here we have contracted for another year a Coleman medalist who looks unable to play. A well respected intelligent communicator who has great connections with the forward line. 
Is there some way this could be a win win win?

I mentioned on the podcast a few weeks ago that I think we should make Ben Brown our Forward coach.

[DistrACTION Jackson 8,472]

3 minutes ago, Demonland said:

I mentioned on the podcast a few weeks ago that I think we should make Ben Brown our Forward coach.

I'm thinking anyone who can teach leading patterns and creating space in the forward line.

Time for Stafford to either move on or go back to full time ruck coach.

[Redleg 40,791]

54 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

If they walk away from the club it means there is an agreement between player and club that they're paid out in full of every cent remaining of their contract.

 

That's not correct.

Players can retire and agree on a lesser sum, for not having to do all the training/playing and that agreed amount can then be brought forward to free up space for the following season. They don't have to be paid in full.

[Diamond_Jim 12,511]

24 minutes ago, poita said:

Is everyone complaining about Brown & McDonald having contracts for next year, also happy that Gawn & May have contracts for 2025 when they will be 34 and 33 respectively?

This club has a history of pushing out contracts to free up salary space, and it is going to bite them in the [censored] at some point. I don't care how good a player they have been, no ruckman should be about to turn 32 and have a 2 year contract in his back pocket.

And nobody is going to walk away from a contract worth $400K - $500K just because it doesn't suit their employer any more. Anyone who says otherwise is kidding themselves.

BBB should be eligible for an early retirement  pay out. Under the AFL rules a lot of this will be outside the salary cap.

TMac elected to "smooth out" his payments by taking lower annual salary over a longer term. (Effectively costs us nothing).

With the number of retirees we have ample list spots. TMac playing a year at VFL level isn't a big problem.

Back ending is very common. Forward loading is far riskier (Ask the Suns with Ablett)

[58er 6,377]

4 hours ago, BaliDemon said:

To me that seems poor negotiating. Shouldn’t it be the player who makes a bit of a sacrifice in terms of dollars or length of contract in order to have a chance of playing in a premiership winning side? It was Brown who wanted to move from a bottom to a top club. Seems our list manager got that principle [censored] about. 

And you didn’t mention TMac. Poor decision to extend his deal for TWO full years beyond 2022 given his age and obvious slowing down. 

These were football department decisions (Tim Lamb?) that basically left us with a gaping hole and precious little back up in attack for 2023 and possibly will for 2024 as well. Some poor decision making on the part of the football department. 

I tjink you will find that when luring a player to your Club it's not always ONE party that is solely responsible . The art of negotiation is always there and in these circumstances while Ben wanted to play with the Dees we also wanted him to come and be play for us. So the talks begin and a contract via his manager is firmed and agreement reached. 

Maybe the Dees can resolve with Ben some coaching role extended to the men also and tick off on e reduced final year total. 

We must remember that our players are our lifeblood and like any employer  are restricted by rules and regs snd  also the Players Association.  
 

So let's  see what happens at the Trade table first and not jump any guns at this stage despite our worry we might be holding the babies as it were.

[layzie 33,729]

2 hours ago, BaliDemon said:

Only in another person’s mind who feels insecure or unsure about their opinions or views. 

Are we really supposed to preface every comment by saying, “Now I know truth can be subjective and perspectives depend on myriad personal factors … so please bare that in mind as I give the following opinion.”

C’mon dude. Harden up a bit. 

Ok.

Your opinion is wrong, you're wrong and you stink.

Better?

[dazzledavey36 54,148]

7 minutes ago, Redleg said:

That's not correct.

Players can retire and agree on a lesser sum, for not having to do all the training/playing and that agreed amount can then be brought forward to free up space for the following season. They don't have to be paid in full.

If the club is forcing a player to retirement which in this case many are hoping for then the player absolutely has the right to receive majority of his payout excluding incentives because it's the club instigating the decision and not the player.

Player doesn't have to agree to the decision especially if they're still in contract.

[Redleg 40,791]

7 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

If the club is forcing a player to retirement which in this case many are hoping for then the player absolutely has the right to receive majority of his payout excluding incentives because it's the club instigating the decision and not the player.

Player doesn't have to agree to the decision especially if they're still in contract.

That's right, but you said they get everything, and that isn't correct, as it is open to negotiation.

Some players will retire with a certain % of their contract, rather than having to train and then play in a lower level. They then can earn more, by playing in another competition if they wish to.

 

[Gawndy the Great 9,011]

1 hour ago, Demonland said:

I mentioned on the podcast a few weeks ago that I think we should make Ben Brown our Forward coach.

It sounds logical and BBB does have some coaching ambitions by what we see in the involvement with the AFLW team. Does he have the creds and know-how though? I know he has played in successful sides and has Coleman and premiership medal. Doesn't automatically qualify him as forward coach potential though. 

 

[Fritta and Turner 4,316]

1 hour ago, Demonland said:

I mentioned on the podcast a few weeks ago that I think we should make Ben Brown our Forward coach.

If we do and he takes part in goal kicking practice we will have to double the time for the session and perhaps extend the ground.