PREGAME: Rd 23 vs Hawthorn

[old55 23,548]

1 hour ago, binman said:

He didn't play in the midfield.

It might of looked like it because he ran up and down the ground all day, spent a lot of time in the defensive 50 and often was where the ball was at, so to speak.

First half, he was on the wing.

Second half he played his normal high half high forward role. 

Did a power of work all game.

In terms of role, a good comparison is Gryan Miers for the cats.

High half forward (ie not a crumbing small forward like chandler), get back and help out in defence, provide an outlet option on transition and spot up forwards with good kicks inside 50.

Like miers (who is a chance of being an AA forward despite having only kicked 6 goals this season) offensively his kpis are goal assists and score involvements not goals.

I suspect spargs comes in tgis week and plays that role.

By the by, miers is averaging almost twice as many possessions as spargs. I suspect spargs has been in the twos to get his tank up so he can get to more contests.

I don't agree that Spargo and Chandler play significantly different roles - can you provide evidence?  There's no good data on kms covered per game, but Chandler regularly features in the top 5 "speed in defence" measures which shows he's getting back there.  I think Spargo is a capable AFL player but I think that Chandler has gone past him in every category:

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_player_compare?playerStatus1=A&tid1=12&playerStatus2=A&tid2=12&type=A&pid1=4150&pid2=6680&fid1=S&fid2=S

Spargo's vision and kicking are his weapons but he has had 10 or more kicks only 12 times in 96 games.  Your comparison of Spargo with Gryan Miers is very unflattering for Spargo, Miers kills him in every meaningful category:

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_player_compare?playerStatus1=A&tid1=12&playerStatus2=A&tid2=10&type=A&pid1=4150&pid2=6471&fid1=S&fid2=S

Let's say for arguments sake that I accept your premise that Spargo plays a similar role to ANB.  You know that the value this role is hotly debated - do we really need two playing it?  And Spargo's contribution is way below ANB's:

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_player_compare?playerStatus1=A&tid1=12&playerStatus2=A&tid2=12&type=A&pid1=4150&pid2=4067&fid1=S&fid2=S

 

[Fat Tony 5,228]

1 hour ago, binman said:

To be honest, I don't really think it is a 'take', in the same way that calling maxy a ruck is not a take.

But leaving that aside, personally I put a lot of stock in the team they select in the first round of the season in terms of a guide to what their preferred method and best 22 looks like (obviously this can change - Laurie was in the round one team for instance, as was grundy)

Full list to choose from and all players are at optimal fitness so can play their assigned role in the way it needs to be played. 

Round one against the dogs, Koz , Spargo (who had 15 disposals, 2 goals and 8 score involvements), ANB and Chandler all played - kicking 8 goals between them.

So, no reason to think it can't work again. 

In 2023 we are 6 wins & 5 losses when we have 3 midget forwards (Kossie, Spargo and Chandler) and 8 wins & 2 losses (both by less than a goal) when we play just 2 midget forwards.

The balance of our side is out with too many small players, particularly forward of the ball where players need to compete in the air in outnumbered situations.. We are already playing 2 small wingers and Bowey in defence.

[daisycutter 29,613]

there's still a chance they go with same team as last week but a different sub

just saying

[Webber 10,465]

41 minutes ago, old55 said:

I don't agree that Spargo and Chandler play significantly different roles - can you provide evidence?  There's no good data on kms covered per game, but Chandler regularly features in the top 5 "speed in defence" measures which shows he's getting back there.  I think Spargo is a capable AFL player but I think that Chandler has gone past him in every category:

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_player_compare?playerStatus1=A&tid1=12&playerStatus2=A&tid2=12&type=A&pid1=4150&pid2=6680&fid1=S&fid2=S

Spargo's vision and kicking are his weapons but he has had 10 or more kicks only 12 times in 96 games.  Your comparison of Spargo with Gryan Miers is very unflattering for Spargo, Miers kills him in every meaningful category:

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_player_compare?playerStatus1=A&tid1=12&playerStatus2=A&tid2=10&type=A&pid1=4150&pid2=6471&fid1=S&fid2=S

Let's say for arguments sake that I accept your premise that Spargo plays a similar role to ANB.  You know that the value this role is hotly debated - do we really need two playing it?  And Spargo's contribution is way below ANB's:

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_player_compare?playerStatus1=A&tid1=12&playerStatus2=A&tid2=12&type=A&pid1=4150&pid2=4067&fid1=S&fid2=S

 

Spargs role is not the same as Nibbler. Nibbler plays ‘on-ball’ a lot, to say he’s a regular ‘first hands’ attendee at stoppages (rarely CBA), so will obviously get more possessions. Spargs is never that, he’s next layer out, wider for the release, of which he’s just one of other options. 
 

All players spend time in defence, as defined by the back half of the ground, given the high press. Chandler is always the last line, the most attacking line, as per JVR. Spargs will be higher in that press, closer to the defending goal. Different role.
 

There’s no doubt that Spargs possession numbers are his weakness, but I reckon he’s top 5 for ball use in the team. Top 3 probably. Bringing the two together is obviously the goal, and he’s taken his chance to offer just that again. He gets 15 possessions, the team benefits hugely. 

[rpfc 28,384]

2 minutes ago, Webber said:

Spargs role is not the same as Nibbler. Nibbler plays ‘on-ball’ a lot, to say he’s a regular ‘first hands’ attendee at stoppages (rarely CBA), so will obviously get more possessions. Spargs is never that, he’s next layer out, wider for the release, of which he’s just one of other options. 
 

All players spend time in defence, as defined by the back half of the ground, given the high press. Chandler is always the last line, the most attacking line, as per JVR. Spargs will be higher in that press, closer to the defending goal. Different role.
 

There’s no doubt that Spargs possession numbers are his weakness, but I reckon he’s top 5 for ball use in the team. Top 3 probably. Bringing the two together is obviously the goal, and he’s taken his chance to offer just that again. He gets 15 possessions, the team benefits hugely. 

I think they are similar roles that are played differently because of the varying strengths. 

ANB is different because of the work he does to release CP5 and CO13 at stoppages but MC need to decide what interpretation of the role they appreciate best and/or are complimentary. 

I think Spargo is a momentum killer and he dwells on the ball to much for a team that has too many of those players up and down the ground.

But we will see what the FD think soon enough

[rjay 24,917]

5 minutes ago, Webber said:

There’s no doubt that Spargs possession numbers are his weakness, but I reckon he’s top 5 for ball use in the team. Top 3 probably.

I reckon his ball use has gone off a bit this year and is part of the reason he was back at Casey.

If his kicking is off he brings nothing else to the team.

He has no depth in his kick so it's vital he hits targets.

[old55 23,548]

7 minutes ago, Webber said:

Spargs role is not the same as Nibbler. Nibbler plays ‘on-ball’ a lot, to say he’s a regular ‘first hands’ attendee at stoppages (rarely CBA), so will obviously get more possessions. Spargs is never that, he’s next layer out, wider for the release, of which he’s just one of other options. 
 

All players spend time in defence, as defined by the back half of the ground, given the high press. Chandler is always the last line, the most attacking line, as per JVR. Spargs will be higher in that press, closer to the defending goal. Different role.
 

There’s no doubt that Spargs possession numbers are his weakness, but I reckon he’s top 5 for ball use in the team. Top 3 probably. Bringing the two together is obviously the goal, and he’s taken his chance to offer just that again. He gets 15 possessions, the team benefits hugely. 

Spargo, neither fish nor fowl

[Redleg 40,895]

6 minutes ago, Webber said:

Spargs role is not the same as Nibbler. Nibbler plays ‘on-ball’ a lot, to say he’s a regular ‘first hands’ attendee at stoppages (rarely CBA), so will obviously get more possessions. Spargs is never that, he’s next layer out, wider for the release, of which he’s just one of other options. 
 

All players spend time in defence, as defined by the back half of the ground, given the high press. Chandler is always the last line, the most attacking line, as per JVR. Spargs will be higher in that press, closer to the defending goal. Different role.
 

There’s no doubt that Spargs possession numbers are his weakness, but I reckon he’s top 5 for ball use in the team. Top 3 probably. Bringing the two together is obviously the goal, and he’s taken his chance to offer just that again. He gets 15 possessions, the team benefits hugely. 

But isn’t that the problem, that he doesn’t get 15 possessions?

Old 55 posted a stat that he has only had more than 10 kicks 12 times in 96 games.

That is the issue with Spargo, great user of the ball but doesn’t get it enough. Change that and we have a valuable contributor.

Atm I can’t see how Kozzie, Chandler, ANB and Spargo play in the same forward line.

[praha 11,240]

2 hours ago, binman said:

They must have seriously cut back on funding for comms.

We have two players playing huge milestone games in two days, including our skipper, and one of the greatest dees of all time playing his 200th, and unless i can't see them on the MFC website, there are no videos celebrating Nibblas or maxy's career and milestones. 

Maybe they will come out today, but really it's not good enough. Both deserve more. As do fans. 

And whilst of course members buymemberships to support the club, part of the value proposition is decent content, not to mention some level of clarrrity about injuries and the like. 

I've seen lots. Just got an email from the club as well.

 

 

https://shop.melbournefc.com.au/gawn-200/

 

Also seen a few interviews on TV (these would be organised by the media department).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Fanatique Demon 2,642]

2 hours ago, Demon Dynasty said:

You can't leave our only KTF or TF roles up to JVR alone as the rookie.

Sorry, I am not familiar with the terms KTF and TK. Please enlighten me.

[dazzledavey36 54,862]

48 minutes ago, rpfc said:

I think they are similar roles that are played differently because of the varying strengths. 

ANB is different because of the work he does to release CP5 and CO13 at stoppages but MC need to decide what interpretation of the role they appreciate best and/or are complimentary. 

I think Spargo is a momentum killer and he dwells on the ball to much for a team that has too many of those players up and down the ground.

But we will see what the FD think soon enough

As evident against Brisbane where he turned it over badly in our front half and gave Brisbane all that momentum to pile on 7 of the next 8 goals for Brisbane.

I also think he's body language this year has been [censored] poor this year. The constant waving of arms and screaming at his teammates to give it to him when even he's not in a comfortable spot himself has been poor from his end.

He did this to Kynan Brown who on the weekend who in fairness should have given the hands off, but instead of going up to him and patting him on the back he had his arms out and shook his head out of frustration. Didn't even go up to him and explain so which was disappointing. 

No coincidence that we haven't seen him since Brisbane and hopefully it stays that way.

Edited August 18, 2023 by dazzledavey36

[Webber 10,465]

37 minutes ago, Redleg said:

Atm I can’t see how Kozzie, Chandler, ANB and Spargo play in the same forward line.

Part of my point is that they’re never all assumed goal kickers at the same time. ANB and Spargs are not ‘small forwards’. Nibbler’s game against North in Tassie was the perfect example of how his role gets confused. He kicked 3 goals, but he was everywhere on the day (as he is every week, an endurance freak), not predominantly up forward. Other weeks he’ll score donuts, yet play his role to a tee as prescribed. As to his landmark, what an extraordinary achievement. 150 games of sheer determination, dedicated team work and on field ethic (and all for a whipping boy!). He’s a special player. Well done Alex Neal Bullen. 👏🏻 

[poita 3,902]

13 hours ago, Willmoy1947 said:

Grundy Disposals....................  Above Average in 2023

Grundy Handballs.................... Elite                     in 2023

The rest .....................................Average              in 2023

All Career  Statistics are either Elite or Above Average Look for yourself.

Average team score last 4 games with Brodie Grundy 60.75 (last 8 = 64.75)

Average team score last 4 games without Brodie Grundy 108.75

I'm not saying we are 8 goal worse team with Grundy playing, and he was handy when Gawn was injured, but clearly his presence is preventing some of his teammates from playing their best football, Gawn in particular.

[DeeZone 9,823]

4 hours ago, leave it to deever said:

Yea Na Maybe .Mr winners.

Smith needs to go fwd and Grundy needs a spell. Sorry.

I reckon this will happen too.

Agree on Spargo. Your on the money.

JJ. I don't knowlove Pig back on and I guess Bowey is the most likely out for him.

I guess Tommo comes in for Smith fwd.

Sub. Don't know.

You are welcome LITDeever, I enjoy your posts.!!

[Redleg 40,895]

29 minutes ago, Webber said:

Part of my point is that they’re never all assumed goal kickers at the same time. ANB and Spargs are not ‘small forwards’. Nibbler’s game against North in Tassie was the perfect example of how his role gets confused. He kicked 3 goals, but he was everywhere on the day (as he is every week, an endurance freak), not predominantly up forward. Other weeks he’ll score donuts, yet play his role to a tee as prescribed. As to his landmark, what an extraordinary achievement. 150 games of sheer determination, dedicated team work and on field ethic (and all for a whipping boy!). He’s a special player. Well done Alex Neal Bullen. 👏🏻 

Agree he is a whipping boy and I admit whipping him too and that is uncomfortable for me, as he is a really lovely guy and did something for my grand daughter’s birthday, which all of us really appreciated.

I congratulate him for sticking it up everyone like me and being a MFC premiership player and now playing his 150th. Have a great game and a big win.

Keep it up Nibbler and keep sticking it to those who knock you.

Edited August 18, 2023 by Redleg

[BangBnagBang 694]

22 hours ago, Dannyz said:

Looks like it's Grundy out and Smith back to the forward line.

Is assume this is better mail than last time when it was Petty to miss 5 weeks???

[Dannyz 2,739]

3 minutes ago, BangBnagBang said:

Is assume this is better mail than last time when it was Petty to miss 5 weeks???

Hopefully. Selection mail is normally pretty close. 

[La Dee-vina Comedia 16,751]

If Grundy doesn't play, it would appear to be "game over" for the Grundy-as-a-forward experiment. There won't be enough time before finals to get the "connection" that Goodwin is always talking about if Grundy doesn't play in the seniors.

I'm not as surprised as others should Hibberd not play. He looked miles off the pace when he came on last week. I think he's essentially lost his spot to McVee, with Bowey, Salem and Rivers rounding out the defensive smalls. Smith and Tomlinson are fighting for the other "tall" defender spot to help Lever and May. (Unless Smith replaces Grundy as a forward in which case Tomlinson will definitely play.)

[binman 42,899]

2 hours ago, old55 said:

I don't agree that Spargo and Chandler play significantly different roles - can you provide evidence?  There's no good data on kms covered per game, but Chandler regularly features in the top 5 "speed in defence" measures which shows he's getting back there.  I think Spargo is a capable AFL player but I think that Chandler has gone past him in every category:

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_player_compare?playerStatus1=A&tid1=12&playerStatus2=A&tid2=12&type=A&pid1=4150&pid2=6680&fid1=S&fid2=S

Spargo's vision and kicking are his weapons but he has had 10 or more kicks only 12 times in 96 games.  Your comparison of Spargo with Gryan Miers is very unflattering for Spargo, Miers kills him in every meaningful category:

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_player_compare?playerStatus1=A&tid1=12&playerStatus2=A&tid2=10&type=A&pid1=4150&pid2=6471&fid1=S&fid2=S

Let's say for arguments sake that I accept your premise that Spargo plays a similar role to ANB.  You know that the value this role is hotly debated - do we really need two playing it?  And Spargo's contribution is way below ANB's:

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_player_compare?playerStatus1=A&tid1=12&playerStatus2=A&tid2=12&type=A&pid1=4150&pid2=4067&fid1=S&fid2=S

 

Old i know you disagree, and i don't want to get into a back and forth on it. 

Happy for you to disagree, and rebut too of course but i'll post this response and leave it here if that is ok. I'm trying to get better at not feeling like i have to prove i'm right all the time (on DL and elsewhere)! 

The high half forward role is a thing.

It is an increasingly critical role because all team defence depends on having multiple players who can cover huge ground, at pace, and gut run all game to track the ball from deep into the oppo defence and half forward flank (inside 50 sometimes too of course, but not like the traditional small forwards). 

They are critical roles because without them all team defence doesn't work as holes open up everywhere that the oppo use to tic tac the ball to free players on transition.

And on offence they provide an outlet, tic tac offensive transition option.  

Forever and a day the game has been about getting the pill - and players are judged on the ability to do so (good players juts know how to get the pill, good players get to where the ball is etc etc). 

(By the by, this started to shift at club land because when Craig was at the Crows he paid someone to time how often Ricciuto, who was regularly getting 35 plus possessions a game, actually had the ball in his hand during a game. I can't recall the exact number, but over the course of a 2 hour game they realized that Roo, their most prolific ball winner, only had the ball in his hands on the ball something like 3.5 minutes per game. Arguably this changed footy because it shifted the thinking about the contribution of players when they don't have the ball in hand - something that has always been a big part of say basketball). 

A challenge for the role is that involves a huge amount of unrewarded running and often low possession numbers because they often gut run to spots that result in the ball actually not going near them. 

For example they gut run to cover a clear switch. If they make it, the ball doesn't get switched, and instead might get kicked down the line 70 metres away from them.

Or they sprint to the open space to provide a switch option. The ball is not kicked to them but it drags their opponent with them (gassing that player in the process) to create a hole for a teammate to run into and provide the tic tac option and support transition.

The impact is measurable in scores from turnover - just about the most critical stat in footy now (eg stopping the oppo scoring on transition, for example gut running to spoil or running to cover space and forcing a kick down the line to a contest. And scoring on transition when after creating turnover or winning it in the back half of the ground).

Or put another way - being involved in scoring chains AND stopping oppo scoring chains (another 'unrewarded' act in terms of accruing a stat - well at least by the media and fans, but not by clubs and teammates). 

If they do their job they don't get a disposal. Hard to appreciate something that has not occurred, ie everyone can see when a player who gets kick.  

Every player has to gut run at times and all have to contribute to all team defence.

The difference is the unique combination of attributes the high half forward role requires - football skill, football iq, discipline (for instance to not chase the pill to fatten their stats sheet when fans are calling for them to be dropped), elite endurance and elite athletic skills - most notably a high cruising speed akin to a 400 metre runner. 

Teams need several such players. Langers and Hunter have a similar function - and athletic attributes to Nibbla and Spargo. 

With no Spargo, another players has to play role (eg Woey) and/or other players have to cover the clicks at speed we miss when Spargo is not in the team (eg chandler playing a hybrid role).

I really like Chandler, but he is does not have the athletic attributes required for the role. 

And i would argue he has been playing a hybrid role, and we saw the issue with that against the blues.

He was ineffective as a small forward, in part i would argue because he spent too much time outside 50 and of course was also more gassed than he would have bene if he stayed inside 50 more of the time.

And i would argue, as evidenced by the fact they were well ahead on scores from turnover (which almost NEVER happens to us) until late in the third, we also struggled with our all team defence because Chandler cant play that high half forward role to the level Spargo can (and that is not a criticism, just diff types of athletes).  

And in any case we want Chandler close to goal, as fresh as possible (eg not gassed because he has to sprint from the half back to the forward pocket), applying pressure inside 50, crumbing packs and kicking goals.

On Gryan Miers, i thought i made clear that i was comparing roles not performance. I did after all note that Myers averages almost twice as many possessions and that he was chance of AA selection.

I chose Myers as a comparison because he is a forward and the conversation is how can a forward get into he AA team having only kicked six goals. Stengel made AA becuase he kicked goals, for instance. 

Sure, people will say that he in the frame for AA selection because of his goal assists, but although he is miles ahead of every other player (trac is second), he still only provides 1.9 goal assists per game.

Curiously though, Spargs, despite being playing 8 fewer games, has kicked almost twice as many goals as Myers (11) and whilst behind on score involvements, not as much as might be imagined (Myers averages 7 per game, Charlie 3.9).

As for evidence for the different roles Spargo and Chandler play, it's hard to find specific evidence.

The heat maps of both players when both in the team would provide a visual of their diff roles, but i couldn't' find them online.

And the other good evidence is total kms covered in a game, defensive kms covered (which is when the oppo have the ball), and ks covered at speed.

Again i cant find that data online, but it is on telstra tracker during games and i always look at it at quarter breaks.  Nibbla, Langers and Hunter are always at the top of the above measures for us.

As for evidence about the high half forward role existence and importance, Daniel Hoyne from Champion data explains it really well here:

Go to this link:

• https://www.sen.com.au/programs/sportsday/
• Scroll down to the 'Round 20 Full On Footy Analysis with Daniel Hoyne in the studio - Tuesday August 01 file 
• And listen from 6 mins 24 secs to the 8 mins 34 second mark

Summary:

• The transition game is the most important part of football now (something he has talked about all season)
• He defines the high half forward role
• Talks about the importance of the role
• Argues that bringing players in to play that role, eg Cunningham and Cotteral, is the key reason for the blues revival because it has allowed them them to sort out their transition game 
• He also goes on to argue that without such players, teams can not win a flag and that is why he thinks the dogs are going nowhere (because they lack such players)
• It is not in this clip, but on another night Hoyne mentioned the Giants recruited Toby Bedford to play the high half forward role, which was an important factor in their improvement too

There is also a podcast Tmac did pre season that talks about the high half forward role.

There is a thread on DL about it with with the link, and i have written about it somewhere too. I had quick search and can't find either. 

But in short, Tmac argues the high half forward role Nibbla and Spargo play (so making a clear distinction between that and other roles, eg small forward) is 'the hardest role in football, by far'.

He also talks about why that is the case - for example the gut running and 'high striding speed' required for the role and the need, all game, to push deep into defence and get behind the ball, and then on turnover, sprint to get ahead of the ball to provide a transition option.

And like i have heard so many ex players say, like Jonesy about Nibbla a few weeks back, Tmac also said that whilst fans may not appreciate players who play the high half forward role, everyone within footy clubs do because they know what is involved and how critical it is to a teams' fortunes.  

Edited August 18, 2023 by binman

[dazzledavey36 54,862]

Our win loss ratio when Spargo is playing this year is 8-5.

When he isn't playing it's 6-2.

We're just fine without him thanks.

 

[deelusions from afar 1,810]

56 minutes ago, poita said:

Average team score last 4 games with Brodie Grundy 60.75 (last 8 = 64.75)

Average team score last 4 games without Brodie Grundy 108.75

I'm not saying we are 8 goal worse team with Grundy playing, and he was handy when Gawn was injured, but clearly his presence is preventing some of his teammates from playing their best football, Gawn in particular.

It's amazing how you can slice and dice stats in different ways.  I'm not (necessarily) disagreeing with you but think a bit of context is helpful.

As in:

1. the recent games we played with Grundy in are (Geelong, GWS, St Kilda and Carlton).  At least three of these were in the wet (can't remember if Geelong was?). 
2. In the Geelong and GWS ones we kick 5.15 and 8.15 respectively.  Is it Grundy's fault that we kicked so inaccurately? 
3. And while it was low scoring against Carlton, we very nearly beat them (arguably we did with the Petracca kick).  So when they are the in-form side, does it matter that our score was low if it was good enough to win?  As I noted elsewhere, essentially all our goals in the second half (at least) came when Grundy rucked and we gave up 3 from stoppages when Gawn was rucking early in the last.  How can we say we would have done better without Grundy in the team.

I'm still not sure what our best mix is (even moreso when Fritsch returns) but I think Grundy has been a lot better than people realise.  My main concern with him is his ability to defend if he is up against a ruckman who is a threat when drifting forward.

[deelusions from afar 1,810]

4 hours ago, binman said:

To be honest, I don't really think it is a 'take', in the same way that calling maxy a ruck is not a take.

But leaving that aside, personally I put a lot of stock in the team they select in the first round of the season in terms of a guide to what their preferred method and best 22 looks like (obviously this can change - Laurie was in the round one team for instance, as was grundy)

Full list to choose from and all players are at optimal fitness so can play their assigned role in the way it needs to be played. 

Round one against the dogs, Koz , Spargo (who had 15 disposals, 2 goals and 8 score involvements), ANB and Chandler all played - kicking 8 goals between them.

So, no reason to think it can't work again. 

I think you might have misunderstood what I meant by 'take' - I was referring to you mentioning that the reason why Spargo is in the twos is to build up his endurance to play his role more effectively in the 1s (ie better tank to get to more contests).

And interesting "take" as well re what you say about the round 1 team.  It makes sense - but of course there is a full season in between which has to take into account form, fitness, and importantly what has worked structurally throughout the season.

Although a lot of us here are haggling about the best forward balance / setup - I actually think it's more about the midfield and defence - if they are closing the outlets then the extra smalls putting on pressure works very well.  Equally having extra tall targets works if the pressure is up as they get more chances on turnover (obviously too many lumbering types like Max and BBB can quickly become a liability if everything else isn't working).

[layzie 33,793]

35 minutes ago, binman said:

Old i know you disagree, and i don't want to get into a back and forth on it. 

Happy for you to disagree, and rebut too of course but i'll post this response and leave it here if that is ok. I'm trying to get better at not feeling like i have to prove i'm right all the time (on DL and elsewhere)! 

The high half forward role is a thing.

It is an increasingly critical role because all team defence depends on having multiple players who can cover huge ground, at pace, and gut run all game to track the ball from deep into the oppo defence and half forward flank (inside 50 sometimes too of course, but not like the traditional small forwards). 

They are critical roles because without them all team defence doesn't work as holes open up everywhere that the oppo use to tic tac the ball to free players on transition.

And on offence they provide an outlet, tic tac offensive transition option.  

Forever and a day the game has been about getting the pill - and players are judged on the ability to do so (good players juts know how to get the pill, good players get to where the ball is etc etc). 

(By the by, this started to shift at club land because when Craig was at the Crows he paid someone to time how often Ricciuto, who was regularly getting 35 plus possessions a game, actually had the ball in his hand during a game. I can't recall the exact number, but over the course of a 2 hour game they realized that Roo, their most prolific ball winner, only had the ball in his hands on the ball something like 3.5 minutes per game. Arguably this changed footy because it shifted the thinking about the contribution of players when they don't have the ball in hand - something that has always been a big part of say basketball). 

A challenge for the role is that involves a huge amount of unrewarded running and often low possession numbers because they often gut run to spots that result in the ball actually not going near them. 

For example they gut run to cover a clear switch. If they make it, the ball doesn't get switched, and instead might get kicked down the line 70 metres away from them.

Or they sprint to the open space to provide a switch option. The ball is not kicked to them but it drags their opponent with them (gassing that player in the process) to create a hole for a teammate to run into and provide the tic tac option and support transition.

The impact is measurable in scores from turnover - just about the most critical stat in footy now (eg stopping the oppo scoring on transition, for example gut running to spoil or running to cover space and forcing a kick down the line to a contest. And scoring on transition when after creating turnover or winning it in the back half of the ground).

Or put another way - being involved in scoring chains AND stopping oppo scoring chains (another 'unrewarded' act in terms of accruing a stat - well at least by the media and fans, but not by clubs and teammates). 

If they do their job they don't get a disposal. Hard to appreciate something that has not occurred, ie everyone can see when a player who gets kick.  

Every player has to gut run at times and all have to contribute to all team defence.

The difference is the unique combination of attributes the high half forward role requires - football skill, football iq, discipline (for instance to not chase the pill to fatten their stats sheet when fans are calling for them to be dropped), elite endurance and elite athletic skills - most notably a high cruising speed akin to a 400 metre runner. 

Teams need several such players. Langers and Hunter have a similar function - and athletic attributes to Nibbla and Spargo. 

With no Spargo, another players has to play role (eg Woey) and/or other players have to cover the clicks at speed we miss when Spargo is not in the team (eg chandler playing a hybrid role).

I really like Chandler, but he is does not have the athletic attributes required for the role. 

And i would argue he has been playing a hybrid role, and we saw the issue with that against the blues.

He was ineffective as a small forward, in part i would argue because he spent too much time outside 50 and of course was also more gassed than he would have bene if he stayed inside 50 more of the time.

And i would argue, as evidenced by the fact they were well ahead on scores from turnover (which almost NEVER happens to us) until late in the third, we also struggled with our all team defence because Chandler cant play that high half forward role to the level Spargo can (and that is not a criticism, just diff types of athletes).  

And in any case we want Chandler close to goal, as fresh as possible (eg not gassed because he has to sprint from the half back to the forward pocket), applying pressure inside 50, crumbing packs and kicking goals.

On Gryan Miers, i thought i made clear that i was comparing roles not performance. I did after all note that Myers averages almost twice as many possessions and that he was chance of AA selection.

I chose Myers as a comparison because he is a forward and the conversation is how can a forward get into he AA team having only kicked six goals. Stengel made AA becuase he kicked goals, for instance. 

Sure, people will say that he in the frame for AA selection because of his goal assists, but although he is miles ahead of every other player (trac is second), he still only provides 1.9 goal assists per game.

Curiously though, Spargs, despite being playing 8 fewer games, has kicked almost twice as many goals as Myers (11) and whilst behind on score involvements, not as much as might be imagined (Myers averages 7 per game, Charlie 3.9).

As for evidence for the different roles Spargo and Chandler play, it's hard to find specific evidence.

The heat maps of both players when both in the team would provide a visual of their diff roles, but i couldn't' find them online.

And the other good evidence is total kms covered in a game, defensive kms covered (which is when the oppo have the ball), and ks covered at speed.

Again i cant find that data online, but it is on telstra tracker during games and i always look at it at quarter breaks.  Nibbla, Langers and Hunter are always at the top of the above measures for us.

As for evidence about the high half forward role existence and importance, Daniel Hoyne from Champion data explains it really well here:

Go to this link:

• https://www.sen.com.au/programs/sportsday/
• Scroll down to the 'Round 20 Full On Footy Analysis with Daniel Hoyne in the studio - Tuesday August 01 file 
• And listen from 6 mins 24 secs to the 8 mins 34 second mark

Summary:

• The transition game is the most important part of football now (something he has talked about all season)
• He defines the high half forward role
• Talks about the importance of the role
• Argues that bringing players in to play that role, eg Cunningham and Cotteral, is the key reason for the blues revival because it has allowed them them to sort out their transition game 
• He also goes on to argue that without such players, teams can not win a flag and that is why he thinks the dogs are going nowhere (because they lack such players)
• It is not in this clip, but on another night Hoyne mentioned the Giants recruited Toby Bedford to play the high half forward role, which was an important factor in their improvement too

There is also a podcast Tmac did pre season that talks about the high half forward role.

There is a thread on DL about it with with the link, and i have written about it somewhere too. I had quick search and can't find either. 

But in short, Tmac argues the high half forward role Nibbla and Spargo play (so making a clear distinction between that and other roles, eg small forward) is 'the hardest role in football, by far'.

He also talks about why that is the case - for example the gut running and 'high striding speed' required for the role and the need, all game, to push deep into defence and get behind the ball, and then on turnover, sprint to get ahead of the ball to provide a transition option.

And like i have heard so many ex players say, like Jonesy about Nibbla a few weeks back, Tmac also said that whilst fans may not appreciate players who play the high half forward role, everyone within footy clubs do because they know what is involved and how critical it is to a teams' fortunes.  

I need to read this again later when I have time to study it. Great post!

[picket fence 17,143]

2 hours ago, old55 said:

Spargo, neither fish nor fowl

Quails into insignificance then?

[Guest]

Well we had to squash Maxy’s 200th, Nibbler’s 150th and Pink Lady onto one side of the banner (advertising on the other side) which sounds like a tough job, but it actually looks AMAZING!

Sneak peek…

Couldn’t get a good shot of the Maxy side since the giant ladder was on the Nibs side. As it is I’m testing the patience of the OGs by just climbing the giant ladder, they were hardly gonna let me attempt to drag it across the floor. 😂