3 hours ago, picket fence said:

We have the following who in my book are elite

CLARRY

MAX

TRACC

MAY

LEVER

SALEM

LANGDON

FRITSCH

Thats just for starters add the almosts Viney, Bowey,BBB, Kossy, Gus theres 13 straight up who would walk into ANY side then add Rivers, Sparrow to the mix and whadaya know, there's a premiership team right there!

Champion data, ?? Full of flaws!

Agree PF - Kozzie with 40 goals for a small forward isn't elite? never mind his tackling pressure

Give me Max over Nic Nat or Grundy any day, also what a joke stringer is there 

1 hour ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Salem's exclusion doesn't make sense in this context though

Salem’s one of my all time favourite players but his ball use is far more focussed on efficiency (especially under heavy pressure) than it is damage.

Overall his kicking is overrated and all the other aspects of his game underrated. His defensive efforts, contested ball, tackling etc are exceptional and separate him from other half back flankers far more than his kicking does.

This analysis by Champion Data is essential...if you're picking a team for Supercoach. It's probably mildly useful if you're interested in a flutter on the Brownlow (although how Jack Steele isn't said to be elite is beyond my understanding). But it is comprehensively useless if you're trying to identify a Premiership team. That's  because Champion Data emphasises individualism rather than the team.

Best example is Max Gawn. He's probably not "elite" because he shares duties with Luke Jackson so his statistical influence is diminished. I suspect, however, if there was a Champion Data category for "ruck combination", they'd be off the charts with daylight between them and the next combination.

Edited February 15, 20223 yr by La Dee-vina Comedia

Steven May is not an Elite Defender. 
Brodie Grundy is an Elite Ruckmen, Max isn’t 

Salem in September? I mean that’s when it really counts 

Jackson, L. (6) Did you notice his work?

K.K. Pickett??

footscray [censored] the bed under pressure apart from Treloar and Bontempelli

Caleb Daniel had a Performance in the GF he would rather forget

Champion Data are not well…Sick…

Edited February 15, 20223 yr by Sir Why You Little

Further proof that statistics can lie, I mean how can a team that has seven “elite” players get absolutely destroyed by a team with only three. 

One answer is the the statistics themselves are simply flawed, as they only give a data representation of the players impact. But you look at Max’s game vs Geelong and tell me he’s not elite. 

The other answer is that the system we have is elite, even if the players are only average. 

Champion data need to look at stats that make a difference and give them a much, much higher weighting.  Disposals and disposal efficiency are stupid measures for the modern game, as chip chip teams like West Coast etc and chip-chip players skew the results. I think Score Involvements should be the highest weighting no matter where you play.  All the other stats mean nothing if after you touch the ball your team never scores from the chain.  The other important stat for ruck and mid defenders is intercepts, as when your team doesn't have the ball stopping your opponent scoring is kind of important (not according to champion data though).  

Score involvements and intercepts for max versus the "elite" rucks are below.  Max clearly is elite at both offense (ranked 2nd) and defence (ranked 1st by a long way).  Nic Nat is clearly a liability at defence (in fact of all AFL rucks he is ranked 35th for intercept marks). Sean Darcy is becoming a gun but still miles behind Max. 

Sean Darcy - 6.00 and 2.67 per game

Max Gawn - 5.48 and 3.56 per game

Nic Nat - 5.32 and 1.55 per game

Hickey - 4.62 and 2.90 per game

Grundy - 4.65 and 2.7 per game

For mid size defenders, here are the stats for Salem versus the elite defenders. Salem ranks 1st for intercepts and 4th for score involvements but all the others rank elite and he ranks average.  Makes no sense.

Salem 3.92 and 6.08

Saad 3.73 and 5.95

Rich 3.88 and 5.92

Hind 4.45 and 5.64

Dale 4.08 and 5.23

Williams 3.64 and 5.21

Daniel 4.08 and 4.48

 

17 hours ago, Elwood 3184 said:

Hickey and Naitanui are elite and Max isn’t - well, well. I must have been dreaming during 2021.

My thoughts execactly.  Yes Dorothy - it was all a dream.

Gawd help the Competion when Max becomes elite this year.

Salem not mentioned - sheeesh!

13 hours ago, faultydet said:

I reckon many (like me) would have got a bit shirty and indignant when they first read that, but it's nothing more than a glowing endorsement of the team first ethic instilled in the group by our "under siege/gambler/alco" 🙄 coach and his team. 

Max played the best 2 games of his life to help us finish number 1, and to humiliate the Cats on the second biggest stage of all.

Angus would be a midfield star at 17 other clubs - yeah Bulldogs, I'm even looking at you- but we see him getting 15 possies a game while running his guts out to remain OUTSIDE the play, because that is where the team can get the biggest benefit from his work.

Champion data. yeah ok.

Proof of your pudding is that Hawthorn have 4, Port Adelaide 6, and many teams like Essendon have the same number as the Demons. And look at the Grand Final Scoreboard and tell me how many of the elite Doggies got a sniff that day.

4 hours ago, Jaded No More said:

Hawthorn having more elite players than the premiers says it all. 

The key disconnect simply put Jaded.

Champion Data's algoritms are flawed, depending what you are looking for. This list is interesting but the exceptions highlight it's uselessness.

I guess someone is paying them to produce this but I have no idea why and would wonder who is the client that uses this info and for what purpose.

I assume they will produce a list based on team performanace eventually pre-season which will be of interest.

 

5 hours ago, picket fence said:

We have the following who in my book are elite

CLARRY

MAX

TRACC

MAY

LEVER

SALEM

LANGDON

FRITSCH

Thats just for starters add the almosts Viney, Bowey,BBB, Kossy, Gus theres 13 straight up who would walk into ANY side then add Rivers, Sparrow to the mix and whadaya know, there's a premiership team right there!

Champion data, ?? Full of flaws!

I agree with all those names. I would also say that Viney's final series in the engine room was totally Elite and A grade. I also think like you Mr. Fence that there are a number of them knocking on the door who could easily become Elite this season. Kossy , Sparrow and Bowey are the front runners imo. I wouldn't count out LJ making the transition either. Whatever way you slice it we now have a very talented and deep list who now know how to win on the big stage. I believe the club has now been set up for a sustained period of success because of the incredibly astute drafting by Jason Taylor and his team. They have turned "trading up in the draft into an art form.

 

There is a lot of interesting data in here. The most obvious problem has been pointed out by a number of people. Champion Data have some work to do on their modelling. These ratings look very much like they aggregate some arbitrary stats (someone’s best guess at what constitutes elite) along with some weighting. I’m sure it is more sophisticated than that but it clearly doesn’t stack up against reality.

Most data scientists would call this a starting point and establish some base truths about the status of players over a number of years to assess their key stats and train their model against.

I’m not worried by these ratings, they are obviously extremely suspect and really only useful for click bait and generating heated discussion (as evidenced by this thread it is very successful 😊 ). What does worry me is the immaturity of the data science underlying this. I am hoping this is just the low grade rubbish that they give to the non-paying general public and not what clubs are using.

6 minutes ago, FlashInThePan said:

There is a lot of interesting data in here. The most obvious problem has been pointed out by a number of people. Champion Data have some work to do on their modelling. These ratings look very much like they aggregate some arbitrary stats (someone’s best guess at what constitutes elite) along with some weighting. I’m sure it is more sophisticated than that but it clearly doesn’t stack up against reality.

Most data scientists would call this a starting point and establish some base truths about the status of players over a number of years to assess their key stats and train their model against.

😊I am hoping this is just the low grade rubbish that they give to the non-paying general public and not what clubs are using.

Base data is important but you would hope the Dees have their own sophisticated data they use for analysis.

I have a mate who is a professional punter and he uses all the publicly available information but has some of his own inputs that are not publicly available which gives him an edge.

 

18 hours ago, Clintosaurus said:

Zac Williams - the defender who does not defend? OK.

Of course Western have half their list.

Flag > being elite 

Zac Williams- General Defender of nothing 😂

How can Gawn, Fritta, Salem, Langers and Maysie not be Elite??? 🤷‍♂️

It purely can't be a Numbers thing surely?

What ever formula they have derived to deliver these outcomes they are completely flawed.

They are Elite players in their positions in the comp blind Freddy can see this.

Champion Data not what it use to be.

Edited February 15, 20223 yr by YesitwasaWin4theAges

1 hour ago, Watson11 said:

Champion data need to look at stats that make a difference and give them a much, much higher weighting.  Disposals and disposal efficiency are stupid measures for the modern game, as chip chip teams like West Coast etc and chip-chip players skew the results. I think Score Involvements should be the highest weighting no matter where you play.  All the other stats mean nothing if after you touch the ball your team never scores from the chain.  The other important stat for ruck and mid defenders is intercepts, as when your team doesn't have the ball stopping your opponent scoring is kind of important (not according to champion data though).  

Score involvements and intercepts for max versus the "elite" rucks are below.  Max clearly is elite at both offense (ranked 2nd) and defence (ranked 1st by a long way).  Nic Nat is clearly a liability at defence (in fact of all AFL rucks he is ranked 35th for intercept marks). Sean Darcy is becoming a gun but still miles behind Max. 

Sean Darcy - 6.00 and 2.67 per game

Max Gawn - 5.48 and 3.56 per game

Nic Nat - 5.32 and 1.55 per game

Hickey - 4.62 and 2.90 per game

Grundy - 4.65 and 2.7 per game

For mid size defenders, here are the stats for Salem versus the elite defenders. Salem ranks 1st for intercepts and 4th for score involvements but all the others rank elite and he ranks average.  Makes no sense.

Salem 3.92 and 6.08

Saad 3.73 and 5.95

Rich 3.88 and 5.92

Hind 4.45 and 5.64

Dale 4.08 and 5.23

Williams 3.64 and 5.21

Daniel 4.08 and 4.48

 

When i heard Nic Nat and no Gawny i knew it was flawed, the lump doesn't even move out of the center square, doesn't take marks etc.

 Completely Ridiculous.

Great to see Sam Switkowski recognised, though I acknowledge it’s a bit premature. Just needs a season with out any major injuries and he’ll surprise plenty with his exceptional talent. 

Ive read some crap over the years but this article wins the WTF of the year award. Elite players don't go missing every time the heat is turned up. Of course Elite players also don't need to be told their Elite. 

2 hours ago, Sir Why You Little said:

Brodie Grundy is an Elite Ruckmen, Max isn’t

Best Hitout Differential (Win Rate)

Max Gawn +38.3%
Sam Reid +36.3%
Paddy Ryder +35.0%
Brodie Grundy +34.4%
Nic Naitanui +30.2%

Total Hit-outs 2021

1	Max Gawn	Demons	25	30 v Western Bulldogs, Grand Final	803
2	Nicholas Naitanui	Eagles	22	53 v Brisbane, Round 23	684
3	Oscar McInerney	Lions	23	40 v Western Bulldogs, Semi Final	671
4	Todd Goldstein	Kangaroos	22	41 v Adelaide, Round 23	652
5	Brodie Grundy	Magpies	20	23 v Essendon, Round 23	648
6	Sean Darcy	Dockers	21	16 v St Kilda, Round 23	599
7	Reilly O'Brien	Crows	20	28 v Port Adelaide, Round 21	588
8	Scott Lycett	Power	20	26 v Western Bulldogs, Preliminary Final	519
9	Tom Hickey	Swans	21	33 v GWS, Elimination Final	504
10	Rhys Stanley	Cats	19	26 v Melbourne, Preliminary Final	391

Back to the drawing board for these guys if they want to become relevant.

 

11 minutes ago, mauriesy said:

Best Hitout Differential (Win Rate)

Max Gawn +38.3%
Sam Reid +36.3%
Paddy Ryder +35.0%
Brodie Grundy +34.4%
Nic Naitanui +30.2%

Total Hit-outs 2021

1	Max Gawn	Demons	25	30 v Western Bulldogs, Grand Final	803
2	Nicholas Naitanui	Eagles	22	53 v Brisbane, Round 23	684
3	Oscar McInerney	Lions	23	40 v Western Bulldogs, Semi Final	671
4	Todd Goldstein	Kangaroos	22	41 v Adelaide, Round 23	652
5	Brodie Grundy	Magpies	20	23 v Essendon, Round 23	648
6	Sean Darcy	Dockers	21	16 v St Kilda, Round 23	599
7	Reilly O'Brien	Crows	20	28 v Port Adelaide, Round 21	588
8	Scott Lycett	Power	20	26 v Western Bulldogs, Preliminary Final	519
9	Tom Hickey	Swans	21	33 v GWS, Elimination Final	504
10	Rhys Stanley	Cats	19	26 v Melbourne, Preliminary Final	391

Champion Data are a joke

Pack it up boys 

On the risible assumption that champion data is an accurate assessment of football talent lets us examine the following ancient conundrum.  Which is more important :

The talent of your top 6 players (elite skill) vs the talent of your bottom 6 players (depth).

If one examines the MFC vs Bulldogs it is clearly depth.

Note : the analysis may be skewed by the Bulldogs having a surfeit of baileys.

Carlton fans will be very surprised to hear they have 3 elite defenders on their team

And as for Nic Nat. i don't understand the fawning. His fitness levels are appalling for a so called professional. Imagine what kind of player he could be if he was bothered to build a tank like Maxy has

Champion data produce excrement. Salem, Gawn and Fritter are elite, as evidenced by their performance in the final series and Max in that last game against Geelong that got us the minor premiership. Part of being elite is the ability to perform in a final series and big games and those 3 were magnificent in that environment. They probably don't include finals in their calculations and if not,  that is a major deficiency. 

10 minutes ago, BDA said:

Carlton fans will be very surprised to hear they have 3 elite defenders on their team

CFC 2021: 1972 points against. 500 more than the top 3 teams. Only one team gave away more - the wooden spooners.

 

3 hours ago, Sir Why You Little said:

Brodie Grundy is an Elite Ruckmen

"Make Grundy elite."
"But boss, the numbers don't--"
"I said, make him elite."
"Well, I'll try, but no matter how I put different weightings on things ..."
"I had Darren Millane's poster on my wall as a kid. And Nathan Buckley's as an adult. Grundy's elite. Make him elite or you'll be doing the stats for synchronised swimming."
"Yes boss."