The trade Jack Viney thread

[WA Demon Boy 966]

8 minutes ago, drdrake said:

What is the right price a third or fourth round pick that is all you would get for him with his age and recent injuries

I think we could get more for him than that 

Again, for the right price I would

Even for right player + a second rounder 

[Redleg 37,780]

4 hours ago, Lord Nev said:

TBF that seems to be a trend this year - leading to the pockets - you're probably correct in your observation it's to prevent turnovers/rebound opportunities.

I don't totally blame the players though, our forward structure has been a mess for a while and it would be compounded by the selection this year which has meant it's not only different players every week but also numerous different structures. TMac and Brown were back to being all over each other on the weekend.

Plus, from what I've heard, quite often forward leads haven't been honoured when they should have so that would add to the mess.

Leading to the pockets is IMO an instruction from the coaches.

It is clearly based on keeping possession and IMO,  affects our chances of scoring from inside 50 entries.

That is probably borne out by our scores.

[WA Demon Boy 966]

9 minutes ago, Smokey said:

Lot of people praising Jack for his "toughness", "loyalty", "heart and soul" etc. but not many praising him for his ability to affect scoring chains, hitting targets or making good decisions. That says it all really. Heart and soul doesn't win games, skill execution does. 

It's time for Jack to reinvent himself. He is a liability in the middle now. 

I agree

He has 0 goal assists for the year

That's one stat that really frightens me 

 

[1964_2 2,357]

6 minutes ago, WA Demon Boy said:

I agree

He has 0 goal assists for the year

That's one stat that really frightens me 

 

WOW

8/9 games, 0 assists......surely not? Surely he even mis-kicked one to an un-suspecting forward? 
 

how many assists Petracca and Oliver? (if you can find it easily) 

[WA Demon Boy 966]

3 minutes ago, 1964_2 said:

WOW

8/9 games, 0 assists......surely not? Surely he even mis-kicked one to an un-suspecting forward? 
 

how many assists Petracca and Oliver? (if you can find it easily) 

Check it out here
 

[Lord Nev 13,511]

16 minutes ago, WA Demon Boy said:

I agree

He has 0 goal assists for the year

That's one stat that really frightens me
 

Sure, but for score involvements he's ahead of Melksham, Spargo, Langdon, Jackson, ANB, Brown, Harmes, Weid and a ton more...

Goal assists isn't a great stat. Pickett is one of our best for that right? He averages 0.47 per game.

Edited July 19, 2021 by Lord Nev

[Lord Nev 13,511]

8 minutes ago, 1964_2 said:

WOW

8/9 games, 0 assists......surely not? Surely he even mis-kicked one to an un-suspecting forward? 
 

how many assists Petracca and Oliver? (if you can find it easily) 

Petracca averages 0.47 per game, Oliver 0.53.

[adonski 9,173]

2 coaches votes for Jack. Surely from Clarkson. 

[roy11 2,963]

I know statistics aren't everything but some of the key outputs (from a scoring POV) of the mids so far this season .

 

[Smokey 4,138]

8 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

Sure, but for score involvements he's ahead of Melksham, Spargo, Langdon, Jackson, ANB, Brown, Harmes, Weid and a ton more...

Goal assists isn't a great stat. Pickett is one of our best for that right? He averages 0.47 per game.

On the contrary, I think the score involvement as a stat is pure fluff. Score assists are material. 

And I reckon he has a higher number of "involvements" than most of those players you've listed simply because he plays on the ball and is normally involved from the stoppage. It's really just a stat for the sake of a stat though, the score can happen 10 disposals away from the player and they are still "involved" according to the stat. Doesn't tell you much other than the procession of players that touched the ball after you didn't turn it over. 

[Lord Nev 13,511]

3 minutes ago, roy11 said:

I know statistics aren't everything but some of the key outputs (from a scoring POV) of the mids so far this season .

 

That's totals though. Viney's missed a bunch of games.

[TRIGON 4,719]

9 minutes ago, adonski said:

2 coaches votes for Jack. Surely from Clarkson. 

Haven't looked at the AFL website yet, how many votes did Goodwin give Frost?

[Lord Nev 13,511]

3 minutes ago, Smokey said:

On the contrary, I think the score involvement as a stat is pure fluff. Score assists are material. 

And I reckon he has a higher number of "involvements" than most of those players you've listed simply because he plays on the ball and is normally involved from the stoppage. It's really just a stat for the sake of a stat though, the score can happen 10 disposals away from the player and they are still "involved" according to the stat. Doesn't tell you much other than the procession of players that touched the ball after you didn't turn it over. 

I would agree, except it's not 'score assists' it's 'goal assists' and the number is that low for them that it's not really worth bothering with. Using your same argument, someone could give a Joe the goose handball and get a 'goal assist' when in reality others have done the work.

I prefer the 'kick inside 50 retention rate' stat for the sake of what we're talking about, but unfortunately it's not publicly available.

Edited July 19, 2021 by Lord Nev

[roy11 2,963]

7 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

That's totals though. Viney's missed a bunch of games.

Yep, included Matches Played for the reference of others but just couldn't be bothered doing the math for each stat.

His tackling #s compared to some of the other mids is elite especially as he's played half the games of some of the others 

Tackles - 4th
Tackles inside 50 - 2nd

 

 

 

[WalkingCivilWar 32,371]

41 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

Sure, but for score involvements he's ahead of Melksham, Spargo, Langdon, Jackson, ANB, Brown, Harmes, Weid and a ton more...

Goal assists isn't a great stat. Pickett is one of our best for that right? He averages 0.47 per game.

If you don’t mind, could you please explain the difference between goal assists and score involvements? All good if you cbf. I’m sure there’s AFL for Dummies somewhere online. ?

[Lord Nev 13,511]

3 minutes ago, WalkingCivilWar said:

If you don’t mind, could you please explain the difference between goal assists and score involvements? All good if you cbf. I’m sure there’s AFL for Dummies somewhere online. ?

So, score involvement means the player has been involved in an unbroken chain of play that leads to a score.

Goal assist is creating a goal by getting the ball to a teammate either via a disposal, knock-on, ground kick or hitout, or by winning a free kick before the advantage is paid to the goal scorer.

TBH, neither is particularly telling IMO.

Edited July 19, 2021 by Lord Nev

[demon3165 1,976]

22 hours ago, Lord Nev said:

Fritsch is 60m away and calling for the kick to go even longer.

Viney could have run another 10 metres but no, just took the first option a poor one at that.

[Lord Nev 13,511]

3 minutes ago, demon3165 said:

Viney could have run another 10 metres but no, just took the first option a poor one at that.

No guarantee he'd still find a better option though...

My problem from our delivery on the weekend was we looked deep nearly every time. We're better when we're looking further out and more laterally.

[Redleg 37,780]

1 hour ago, roy11 said:

I know statistics aren't everything but some of the key outputs (from a scoring POV) of the mids so far this season .

 

On that chart, Gus kicks less than 1 from 6 shots and Clarry at nearly 1 in 4.

Saturday Hawks mids scored 5 goals to our none.

A slight improvement by our mids and we probably beat Hawks, Crows and Giants.

Edited July 19, 2021 by Redleg

[Half forward flank 1,022]

2 hours ago, drdrake said:

OK, you are slamming him, his past/current coaches which includes his dad for not taking him down a peg or two.  That Viney will read The Age best players and think I was awesome today, you don't think that his current coaches will review his turnovers and  highlight them.

Taking down a peg or two. Your words, not mine. I think him seeing ball, get ball is so ingrained it is now difficult to change, I think the evidence is pretty clear it is difficult to change a sportsman base tactics in their late twenties. Some do it to their great credit. I have confidence in Mark Williams being able to review Jacks game and highlight things such as when he gave up the chase running behind Max Gawn in the second or third quarter. I will concede lack of fitness with Jack. As for the Age best players, then for some players and we do not know if Jack is one of them, a contradictory message is sent as I said at the outset.

[BDA 20,254]

1 hour ago, adonski said:

2 coaches votes for Jack. Surely from Clarkson. 

We need a head scratcher emoji

[demon3165 1,976]

32 minutes ago, Half forward flank said:

Taking down a peg or two. Your words, not mine. I think him seeing ball, get ball is so ingrained it is now difficult to change, I think the evidence is pretty clear it is difficult to change a sportsman base tactics in their late twenties. Some do it to their great credit. I have confidence in Mark Williams being able to review Jacks game and highlight things such as when he gave up the chase running behind Max Gawn in the second or third quarter. I will concede lack of fitness with Jack. As for the Age best players, then for some players and we do not know if Jack is one of them, a contradictory message is sent as I said at the outset.

And he does that a lot, this is not the first time.

[picket fence 15,299]

9 hours ago, Bring-Back-Powell said:

Was going to a post the same thing about Montagna who I rate as an analyst.

Montagna thought Viney was outstanding and made a point that once a player reaches his fourth game on return from long term injury, they get back to their normal output.

Viney was far from perfect on Saturday night but it was certainly a step up from the last 3 weeks.

Saw that and also they brought up the Clayton Oliver incident where Spargo marked in front of him. I didnt think anything if it at the time and still say the same

[waynewussell 4,092]

I take more notice of the 'experts' on Demonland than AFL coaches when it comes to knowledgeable appraisal of a player's worth.... NOT!

[titan_uranus 22,515]

Here is some statistical comparisons (on averages) for this season between Viney, Petracca, Oliver, Jordon and Harmes:

1. Tackles: Viney 7.4, Oliver 5.2, Harmes 5.2, Jordon 5.1, Petracca 4.1
2. Tackles inside 50: Viney 1.4, Jordon 1.1, Harmes 0.7, Oliver 0.5, Petracca 0.4
3. Pressure acts: Viney 26.7, Harmes 24.2, Oliver 23, Petracca 22.1, Jordon 18.2
4. Score involvements: Petracca 7.8, Oliver 7.4, Viney 4.6, Harmes 3.9, Jordon 3.7
5. Goal assists: Oliver 0.5, Petracca 0.5, Harmes 0.3, Jordon 0.3, Viney 0
6. Inside 50s: Petracca 7.3, Oliver 5.2, Viney 4.2, Harmes 3.4, Jordon 2.4 
7. Clearances: Oliver 7.5, Petracca 6.3, Viney 4.4, Harmes 3.1, Jordon 1.7
8. Centre clearances: Oliver 2.9, Petracca 2.9, Viney 1.6, Harmes 1.1, Jordon 0.3
9. Stoppage clearances: Oliver 4.6, Petracca 3.4, Viney 2.9, Harmes 2.0, Jordon 1.4
10. Contested possessions: Oliver 16.6, Petracca 14.1, Viney 10.8, Harmes 9.8, Jordon 6.1
11. Turnovers: Petracca 6.9, Oliver 5.2, Viney 4.9, Harmes 3.7, Jordon 3.4
12. Clangers: Petracca 5.3, Oliver 5.1, Harmes 4.0, Viney 3.9, Jordon 2.5
13. Ground ball gets: Oliver 10.5, Petracca 9.5, Harmes 7.4, Viney 6.1, Jordon 4.8
14. Metres gained: Petracca 545.1, Oliver 420.5, Viney 274.8, Oliver 243.2, Harmes 231.2
15. Marks: Petracca 5.3, Oliver 4.1, Harmes 3.3, Jordon 2.9, Viney 2.2

Viney rates top for some defensive stats (tackles and pressure acts) but mid-table for offensive stats.

Which makes sense, tbh.