Umps got it wrong - need a please explain

[deebug 1,754]

You would be dirty if you had money on this game and lost it because of an umpire?

[doc roet 1,287]

2 minutes ago, Redleg said:

We will get the apology for the "mistake". Problem is, I don't believe it it was a mistake. It was deliberate by the umpire who saw it. Not in a cheating way, but out of fear, in front of a ground full of fanatics, to pay a free that would lose them the game

Beat me to me to it .

[John Crow Batty 8,863]

I thought we got the better of the umpiring early but I had a niggling feeling it will go against us late in the game if scores are close and become victims of home crowd decisions later in the game. The same happened in 2019 when we got some shocking decisions against us in the last quarter against WC in Perth. This year it’s become a big problem for away teams in close finishes and vocal crowds. The umpires need some form of re-education.

Edited May 22, 2021 by John Crow Batty

[Lord Nev 13,512]

Related question: Did our 'good guy' mentally cost us that free kick? Not enough of our players 'appealed' for the deliberate decision. ANB half heartedly put his hands up, no one else did anything. If a few of them had, even if ANB or Jacko had started to lineup like he was expecting the decision, it potentially could have tipped the balance in the umpires eyes.

We were poor. Absolutely 0 pressure until after half time. A fair few blokes should be hanging their heads. Crows 100% deserved to win. Doesn't mean we can't talk about yet another decision/non-decision that has decided the outcome of a game though.

Staggering we still have part timers officiating a billion dollar game.

 

[Webber 10,468]

6 minutes ago, Redleg said:

We will get the apology for the "mistake". Problem is, I don't believe it it was a mistake. It was deliberate by the umpire who saw it. Not in a cheating way, but out of fear, in front of a ground full of fanatics, to pay a free that would lose them the game.

This is a dangerous precedent and we have seen several this year.

Not paying a blatant free to the away side that could give them the game has occurred too often this year to be just a coincidence.

If this is not eradicated, we will have a very serious problem for the game. Umpires are supposed to be professional and impartial.

This is a failure on both fronts. I repeat, this was not a mistake by the umpire, but rather a choice to not pay what he had seen. Even Nicks in the Crows box winced and swore when the handball happened.

Btw, Pickett was pushed fair and square in the back a few seconds earlier, when he went for a mark about 40 out. 

There were 3 blatant frees not paid to the away side, in the last 2 minutes, deliberate, in the back and holding the ball.

All would have changed the result. See the similarity.

On another note fairly soft frees and 50"s were paid to the home side, resulting in 4 goals from the umps and loud cheering from the crowd. Popular umpires. Better feeling than being booed.

It is simply not good enough in professional sport to allow umpiring to the crowd to continue.

On another note, the Crows were the better side on the day and we should never have been in the position where a bad umpire call or two would affect the result. That is on us.

Fumbling. Falling over. Long bombs to the forward line. About 2/3 of the side having their worst game of the year, together in the same game. As an example I don't think Hunt had one clean possession in his 7 meaningless possies. It was the disaster happening in front of our eyes, against a low side, with 5 losses in a row, who were as fanatical as the crowd. Meka no mistake they set themselves for this game and rested Tex in preparation. We on the other hand brought not our A or even B game, but our C game. In professional football games that is nearly always a loss.

Time to regroup and take on the flag favourites in the next two weeks.

 

You’re dead on Redleg. Why those in charge of the game continue to let it be a blight is baffling. Unfortunately, I believe it’s by far the worst aspect of our great game. As an indication that change is possible, we’ve seen an obvious and successful attempt to stop the ridiculous umpiring imbalance in Perth in the last few years. Last night was disgraceful, as was the Geelong v Brisbane ‘incorrect disposal’ shambles (Blicavs) and the Swans v Geelong ‘not 15’ madness (Cameron). All 3 games should have had different results. 

[Rodney (Balls) Grinter 10,826]

15 minutes ago, CYB said:

I’m sick and tired of the narrative that the umpiring non decision isn’t why we lost. I get the sentiment but I always call a spade a spade and that non decision was the deciding factor. Yes we were off our game but Adelaide played out of their skins and it took a few bad calls for the game to fall in their favour.

 

100% yes we were off our game and didn't play that well for big periods, but we were also pretty good at times too.  Our 3rd quarter was good and we got to a position of being 16 points up with 8mins to go, a goal of which we lost, because of a howler non free kick.  Oliver, Lever, Track, Spargo, ANB and others were pretty dam good and played at least as good team first footy as they did that second half.

[Deesprate 1,324]

12 minutes ago, Redleg said:

We will get the apology for the "mistake". Problem is, I don't believe it it was a mistake. It was deliberate by the umpire who saw it. Not in a cheating way, but out of fear, in front of a ground full of fanatics, to pay a free that would lose them the game.

This is a dangerous precedent and we have seen several this year.

Not paying a blatant free to the away side that could give them the game has occurred too often this year to be just a coincidence.

If this is not eradicated, we will have a very serious problem for the game. Umpires are supposed to be professional and impartial.

This is a failure on both fronts. I repeat, this was not a mistake by the umpire, but rather a choice to not pay what he had seen. Even Nicks in the Crows box winced and swore when the handball happened.

Btw, Pickett was pushed fair and square in the back a few seconds earlier, when he went for a mark about 40 out. 

There were 3 blatant frees not paid to the away side, in the last 2 minutes, deliberate, in the back and holding the ball.

All would have changed the result. See the similarity.

On another note fairly soft frees and 50"s were paid to the home side, resulting in 4 goals from the umps and loud cheering from the crowd. Popular umpires. Better feeling than being booed.

It is simply not good enough in professional sport to allow umpiring to the crowd to continue.

On another note, the Crows were the better side on the day and we should never have been in the position where a bad umpire call or two would affect the result. That is on us.

Fumbling. Falling over. Long bombs to the forward line. About 2/3 of the side having their worst game of the year, together in the same game. As an example I don't think Hunt had one clean possession in his 7 meaningless possies. It was the disaster happening in front of our eyes, against a low side, with 5 losses in a row, who were as fanatical as the crowd. Meka no mistake they set themselves for this game and rested Tex in preparation. We on the other hand brought not our A or even B game, but our C game. In professional football games that is nearly always a loss.

Time to regroup and take on the flag favourites in the next two weeks.

 

I totally agree with that summation the guy had a split second decision to make and he simply froze. Whether it unconscious I reckon that what happened and why this ump should not be allowed near a big game. Must have felt good for being applauded off for being a squib and don’t even start with HTB and Kossie. All non decisions cowered by the crowd. Pathetic.

[dee-tox 4,835]

Weird thread. 

Will a please explain by the AFL ease the frustration of losing? Will it help distort the reality of what happened?

Will a please explain help the players move on to next week?

Control the controlables Umpiring ain't one of those. 

 

[BDA 22,755]

41 minutes ago, Left Foot Snap said:

I have been thinking about this for a while and I guess this is as good a place as any to put it. There has always been a lot of talk that umpires are not full time professionals, but they are still paid pretty damn well for what they do. I think it is time for them to be held accountable for their performances. I think major howlers should result in fines to the offending official - no matter when in the game the decision is made. Only way I can see to force some improvements. 

This is regardless of yesterday's game.

Will we start fining players for missing set-shots?

We need umps with the cojones to make the call. It takes real guts to make those calls in hostile environments. Most umps being human will succumb. Perhaps some sort of video review could work, perhaps 2 challenges per game goes to the video ump. buys time and takes the pressure off the ump.

[The heart beats true 18,123]

While I’m firmly of the opinion that we were completely robbed by the non holding the ball decision and the non deliberate OOB, I also don’t what that to become the narrative.

We are a senior team now - in terms of games experience and age demographic. You don’t get 16 points up with 7 minutes left and get beaten. That should be the story of this game. A blow torch on the leaders. May and Gawn in particular should be held to account for their inability to set up better. We didn’t control the game all night, and struggled to maintain possession. I want some pressure on the leaders, as that will do us more good in the long run. 

[BenJamin on Deesy St 805]

7 minutes ago, John Crow Batty said:

I thought we got the better of the umpiring early but I had a niggling feeling it will go against us late in the game if scores are close and become victims of home crowd decisions later in the game. The same happened in 2019 when we got some shocking decisions against us in the last quarter against WC in Perth. This year it’s become a big problem for away teams in close finishes and vocal crowds. The umpires need some form of re-education.

Indeed JCB. With around 4 minutes remaining, I actually turned to my partner and said, "We won't be getting any free kicks for the rest of the game." It was as predictable as it was disgusting (from a Melbourne point of view). Umps get swept up in the moment like any of us would, I suppose. Self-preservation kicks in, in high pressure moments.

Hate the bloke but I don't recall David Howlett squibbing blowing the whistle in the '87 preliminary final, after the siren mind you, to give Buckenara that 15-metre penalty in front of a passionate and partisan Melb crowd. That's the sort of bravery and integrity required from umps in situations like last night (and in Geel v Bris, and Syd v Geel).

For what it's worth, I was more livid with the missed Keays holding the ball decision. After more than 20 HTB decisions the week before v Carlton, I am totally confused by the rule and its wildly inconsistent interpretation.

[Swooper1987 3,322]

4 minutes ago, dee-tox said:

Weird thread. 

Will a please explain by the AFL ease the frustration of losing? Will it help distort the reality of what happened?

Will a please explain help the players move on to next week?

Control the controlables Umpiring ain't one of those. 

 

Agree entirely.  It was a terrible non-decision, but it was no more costly than Fritsch's terrible underground grubber attempt when Tracc was on, or Lever's ridiculous push in the back, or any of Tracc's multitude of fumbles, or Harmes falling over, or Gawn's dropped mark, or Hibberd's failure to check Rowe at a stoppage etc etc. Yes we expect a higher standard, but I'm sure Goody will spend 99.99% of the time after the match addressing our team's shortcomings and around .01% worrying about the AFL umpires department.

[John Crow Batty 8,863]

5 minutes ago, Ben E said:

Indeed JCB. With around 4 minutes remaining, I actually turned to my partner and said, "We won't be getting any free kicks for the rest of the game." It was as predictable as it was disgusting (from a Melbourne point of view). Umps get swept up in the moment like any of us would, I suppose. Self-preservation kicks in, in high pressure moments.

Hate the bloke but I don't recall David Howlett squibbing blowing the whistle in the '87 preliminary final, after the siren mind you, to give Buckenara that 15-metre penalty in front of a passionate and partisan Melb crowd. That's the sort of bravery and integrity required from umps in situations like last night (and in Geel v Bris, and Syd v Geel).

For what it's worth, I was more livid with the missed Keays holding the ball decision. After more than 20 HTB decisions the week before v Carlton, I am totally confused by the rule and its wildly inconsistent interpretation.

I get the impression umpires are like professional wrestling performers in these kind of games. Play the “heel” early to get all the boos and hate then switch over to become the “face” at the end to gain the platitudes and cheers. Must make them feel good.

Edited May 22, 2021 by John Crow Batty

[Webber 10,468]

13 minutes ago, dee-tox said:

Weird thread. 

Will a please explain by the AFL ease the frustration of losing? Will it help distort the reality of what happened?

Will a please explain help the players move on to next week?

Control the controlables Umpiring ain't one of those. 

 

Isn’t that the point though, dee-tox? The default belief that umpiring can’t be “controlled” is next to just accepting its mediocrity. It should be better, so we can all - players, supporters, umpires - enjoy the game more. Obviously it means more when your team is on the s**t end of it,  but I can equally say that my enjoyment of non-Dees games this year has been ruined by bad umpiring. Of course the team will give it no consideration because of that lack of influence, but that shouldn’t leave it unexamined by those who should be responsible for improving it. It is THE rubbish part of our game. 

[Bleed red and blue 59]

Will ask the question to the AFL but we shoot ourselves in the foot by missing goals we should have kicked 

Just shows how underrated Salem's ball use off half back is and how it effects your structure when your missing key players 

But if where a good club me move on and look forward to having a crack against an inform doggies can't wait for the battle ahead bounce back and scare the comp go dees

[sue 9,106]

14 minutes ago, dee-tox said:

Weird thread. 

Will a please explain by the AFL ease the frustration of losing? Will it help distort the reality of what happened?

Will a please explain help the players move on to next week?

Control the controlables Umpiring ain't one of those. 

 

Of course a please explain won't do any of the two things you mention.  But an appropriate whinge about bad umpiring by top teams is likely to do them some good in future games.  Just as umpires are influenced by the home crowd, they are also influenced by not wanting to be seen making another big mistake against the same team shortly thereafter.  Neither are professional, but then the umps aren't very professional and are human.

There a lots of bad decisions that are excusable and within the usual range of iffy decisions. I'd put the non-holding the ball which led to their last goal as an example.  Clearly a free, but what the heck, it happens all the time.  Maybe the ump's line of vision was blocked or whatever.  The non-deliberate was in an entirely diferent class.  Blatant and no excuse for the umpire.

Goodwin won't even spend the 0.01% of time that Swooper mentioned on it with the players and coaches.  I don't think any of those whinging about the umpiring or calling for a please explain would expect him to.  

[dee-tox 4,835]

4 minutes ago, Webber said:

Isn’t that the point though, dee-tox? The default belief that umpiring can’t be “controlled” is next to just accepting its mediocrity. It should be better, so we can all - players, supporters, umpires - enjoy the game more. Obviously it means more when your team is on the s**t end of it,  but I can equally say that my enjoyment of non-Dees games this year has been ruined by bad umpiring. Of course the team will give it no consideration because of that lack of influence, but that shouldn’t leave it unexamined by those who should be responsible for improving it. It is THE rubbish part of our game. 

Agreed, the mediocrity of umpires is an age old problem. As supporters we've been complaining for years.

But the MFC or us as supporters venting our spleen isn't going to change anything. Even publicly acknowledging the umpires made a mistake won't change anything. Its what the AFL do to move the conversation away from the umpires.

My point was as a club you might as well concentrate on things that can make a difference rather waste energy on things you can't. 

 

[Wadda We Sing 10,685]

12 minutes ago, dee-tox said:

Agreed, the mediocrity of umpires is an age old problem. As supporters we've been complaining for years.

But the MFC or us as supporters venting our spleen isn't going to change anything. Even publicly acknowledging the umpires made a mistake won't change anything. Its what the AFL do to move the conversation away from the umpires.

My point was as a club you might as well concentrate on things that can make a difference rather waste energy on things you can't. 

 

They change/implement rules every season in response to feedback/results/game flows etc. Things will never change if you accept or condone mediocrity. Its not so much just for us, as for the good of the game that most people here have taken issue to.

 

[Billy 2,530]

It absolutely cost us the game, it was the most deliberate OOB all year & the umpires were to gutless to call it.

 

If it was any other time in the game it would’ve been called 

It cost us 4 points & let’s hope not a top 4 finish 

 

[Wadda We Sing 10,685]

2 hours ago, Dee Zephyr said:

You probably won’t see a more deliberate handball out of play this season than last night. I understand the frustration but it won’t make most of us feel any better if they admit it was the wrong call. The Spargo one was an absolute howler, trying to pick up the ball of his bootlaces and toe pokes it out accidentally.

The Crows one is better compared to Lever getting pinged for deliberate earlier in the game when he actually made it look like he was passing to Petty. 
Time for Ump pressers after games perhaps, that would be fun.

I actually dont mind the suggestion of an umpires press conference. Might make them think twice about non decisions at least.

[Left Foot Snap 2,403]

1 hour ago, Webber said:

That is crazy. Nobody will ever want to umpire. The point you make about umpires not being full-time is the biggest issue. They should be, and they and the game would be better for it. 

Of course they will. Full time or not they get paid well to do what they do and should be held accountable for the money they earn. If they went full time, even more so. All I want is accountability,  being dropped would also have the same effect and I don't see why that isn't done more often.

[wackojacko 25]

Not deliberate . Saw another angle this morning. Spargo touched it on the way through

[Pickett2Jackson 3,904]

Wah wah wah the umps suck wah wah wah

We lost to a garbage team, the umpires are irrelevant

[binman 42,972]

1 hour ago, Webber said:

Actually it WAS why we lost. And that’s ok, on a long enough time-line it all evens out. The bigger point is that there’s no reconciling the abominable contradictions in last night’s umpiring that gifted the Crows the win, because it reflects what is the greatest blight on our game - the quality of umpiring. Not forgetting that the size of ground, speed of play and multi-directional nature of our game makes it difficult, it just has to get better. Ignoring the ‘out of bounds’ shambles for a bit, the adjudication of the ‘tackle rule’ - the essence of the game’s physical contact - is a complete shambles, an utter 50/50 mess in any given situation. The home-crowd influence factor is equally egregious, and it was on sparkling display last night. How and why the umpires can’t be specifically coached in how not to fall prey to this baffles me. They’ve corrected it to a large extent in Perth over the last couple of years, but last night was an embarrassment to the game. Bad/unbalanced umpiring determined last night’s result. It’s that simple, and it shouldn’t happen. 

Agree Webber.

Given tge stakes it is completely assured the umpires are not full time professionals. Or at the very least one, who has authority to over ride or change any call.

At the risk of being accused a conspiracy theorist, as I wrote last year, I think the AFL deliberately create  interpretation related controversies. There is at least two per year. Currently it is holding the man and I'll bet the next one is how quickly the umpires call play. Ridiculous.

Why? Just look at all the thousands of hours of free coverage and click baits the game gets as a result.

Maybe not have professional umpires is part of that strategy.

 

[WERRIDEE 5,479]

2 hours ago, BigFez said:

I'd love to see a side by side of Lever's deliberate in the second quarter and that one.

Can't blame the umps for the loss but that's as bad a decision as you'll see.  Credit to the Crows, they just wouldn't go away.

What about Spargo's deliberate?