1 hour ago, No Plan B said:I wish OMac all the best, but let's face it. In the past decade only one MFC player has actually gone to a new club and flourished (Jeremy Howe). We overrate our players big time, in most cases anyway. 

And even then Howe went because Buckley promised him he’d be a forward. 5 games later he was in the backline (where he’d been a good player for us). He became an AA defender - but had he stayed he’d likely have been that for us too.

90% of the time after 3-4 years in the system players are what they are. Oscar is what he is by now.

1 hour ago, picket fence said:

Who SHOULD be played FORWARD. Until he is given a fair go up Forward.... lets reserve judgement re "Whipping Boy" just yet!

 

So... bag out some who have had better games but reserve judgement on others who have had zero 'good' games??

Thank [censored] you are not our list manager picket!

42 minutes ago, The heart beats true said:

And even then Howe went because Buckley promised him he’d be a forward. 5 games later he was in the backline (where he’d been a good player for us). He became an AA defender - but had he stayed he’d likely have been that for us too.

90% of the time after 3-4 years in the system players are what they are. Oscar is what he is by now.

He never became an AA defender .The deficiencies in his game with us are still his deficiencies at Collingwood .. 

3 hours ago, kallangurdemon said:

he is an absolute spud whose only sporting asset is his golf game .If we are a club that is serious for success rather than a home for 3rd raters he should go now if not sooner .Trade value ? Absolutely none ,If we got pick 84 we would have robbed someone .

Yeah, but what do you really think of him.

In your opinion he may be no good, but that is no reason to slag off at him.

1 hour ago, poita said:

This is so dumb. You can't just trade out every depth player on your list and expect to be competitive. The first time Lever or May gets injured you are back to playing Hore and Smith in the key defensive roles and wondering why the backline is completely dysfunctional. The same goes for trading Preuss and expecting Gawn to play 22 games every year without any support.

And for what? He probably brings a third round pick that will get pushed back to about pick 60 and deliver nothing. Or Goodwin will go ga-ga for yet anothermid-sized forward who can spend the next two years wandering around at Casey.

I'd much rather keep Oscar, build his confidence and work on not allowing his weaknesses to be exposed so easily.

Our backline is the opposite of completely dysfunctional. I'd argue it was elite this year.

It's a system, so if we incur injuries, we have Smith or Petty playing back.

It's about improving our best 22 and at this stage, we're short for picks, so I think you'll find we're trying to ship out players for picks or straight up best 22 players. Oscar for Polec or Oscar for Smith would be wins.

Oscar is neither as good as a few make out nor as bad as many make out. He has deficiencies but can come in and do a defensive job and if selected ahead of Tomlinson, can run a zone, allowing May & Lever to do their thing. His bad games have usually come when the team defence as a whole collapses and he becomes a convenient scapegoat.

If he stays he's good injury coverage. If he leaves I won't be overly fussed.

The thought of reading a Hawthorn backline of Frost, Frawley & Omac does provide some amusement though.

1 hour ago, poita said:

This is so dumb. You can't just trade out every depth player on your list and expect to be competitive. The first time Lever or May gets injured you are back to playing Hore and Smith in the key defensive roles and wondering why the backline is completely dysfunctional. The same goes for trading Preuss and expecting Gawn to play 22 games every year without any support.

And for what? He probably brings a third round pick that will get pushed back to about pick 60 and deliver nothing. Or Goodwin will go ga-ga for yet anothermid-sized forward who can spend the next two years wandering around at Casey.

I'd much rather keep Oscar, build his confidence and work on not allowing his weaknesses to be exposed so easily.

You are (almost) on your own on this one. Mitch Brown showed in the last round he is a mile ahead of Oscar as a cheap defensive back up for a year or 2.

2 hours ago, poita said:

This is so dumb. You can't just trade out every depth player on your list and expect to be competitive. The first time Lever or May gets injured you are back to playing Hore and Smith in the key defensive roles and wondering why the backline is completely dysfunctional. The same goes for trading Preuss and expecting Gawn to play 22 games every year without any support.

And for what? He probably brings a third round pick that will get pushed back to about pick 60 and deliver nothing. Or Goodwin will go ga-ga for yet anothermid-sized forward who can spend the next two years wandering around at Casey.

I'd much rather keep Oscar, build his confidence and work on not allowing his weaknesses to be exposed so easily.

You can't keep holding on to players that are NQR. You need to keep turning over the list in the hope that you can find a group of players that can do the job for you. At the moment we have around 12 senior guys and three kids who we know are up to it. We need plenty more.

Teams that win finals are often judged on their bottom six players, those that can break even and do a job. Currently, we have a bottom 10 and that's what is holding us back.

 

It would be acceptable to me if he left to refresh his career, and I'd expect only minimal trade return, but can people not throw abuse at the guy? Seriously, act like adults. 

There would be a question on our defensive depth but who knows, maybe the plan is to send his brother back there. T.Mac had a couple of seasons in defence almost as good as his 2018 in attack. Maybe being relieved of the pressure thanks to May and Lever being the 'stars' will freshen him up.

 

Trading or delisting Oscar McDonald would be an early Xmas present. No idea what the club saw in him. 

15 minutes ago, Dr.D said:

Trading or delisting Oscar McDonald would be an early Xmas present. No idea what the club saw in him. 

He was a speculative pick in the 50s.  It's not as if he is a first round pick that never came on.  

Even though I don't really see a future for him at the club, he has gotten plenty out of himself considering where we took him, and I'd wager that his career will continue at a second club as well.  He's done better than many, many others who are taken in the third or fourth round of the draft.

Clearly there are plenty who see something in him.  

2 hours ago, Wiseblood said:

He was a speculative pick in the 50s.  It's not as if he is a first round pick that never came on.  

Even though I don't really see a future for him at the club, he has gotten plenty out of himself considering where we took him, and I'd wager that his career will continue at a second club as well.  He's done better than many, many others who are taken in the third or fourth round of the draft.

Clearly there are plenty who see something in him.  

in terms of games yes, he has exceeded his pick 50 value. But I don't think he has ever shown any afl traits since day 1. 

10 hours ago, kallangurdemon said:

He never became an AA defender .The deficiencies in his game with us are still his deficiencies at Collingwood .. 

And what are they?

deficiensies ?

I am not an Omac best 22 believer but I also believe you need plan Bs for injury. If he wants to move on and there is opportunity to assist then we should. If not a one year deal on low salary if he wants to continue to develop is fair for both parties.If he does leave and TMac does not get traded we will need to consider bringing in some form of low cost coverage as well as drafting a kid to develop. 

15 hours ago, dee-tox said:

You can't keep holding on to players that are NQR. You need to keep turning over the list in the hope that you can find a group of players that can do the job for you. At the moment we have around 12 senior guys and three kids who we know are up to it. We need plenty more.

Teams that win finals are often judged on their bottom six players, those that can break even and do a job. Currently, we have a bottom 10 and that's what is holding us back.

 

Top teams have elite superstars like Dustin Martin or Lachie Neale. 

9 hours ago, Dr.D said:

in terms of games yes, he has exceeded his pick 50 value. But I don't think he has ever shown any afl traits since day 1. 

No AFL traits since day 1 but managed a rising star nomination and has 81 games from 6 seasons so far. 
I don’t think he’s much chop either but geez you talk some [censored]. 

1 hour ago, Coq au vin said:

Top teams have elite superstars like Dustin Martin or Lachie Neale. 

How many do Port, WCE or St K have?

Oscar is very frustrating- he shows glimpses but then reverts to type very quickly. I doubt he will change much.

2 hours ago, Coq au vin said:

Top teams have elite superstars like Dustin Martin or Lachie Neale. 

....or christian petracca or clayton oliver

we have the top level talent on our list; can we get the c-graders up to play like b-graders (see 2018) and the footy dept. to put the pieces in place to get the best out of the whole group?

1 minute ago, whatwhatsaywhat said:

....or christian petracca or clayton oliver

we have the top level talent on our list; can we get the c-graders up to play like b-graders (see 2018) and the footy dept. to put the pieces in place to get the best out of the whole group?

footy dept. to put the pieces in place to get the best out of the whole group?

Obviously not!

29 minutes ago, chook fowler said:

Oscar is very frustrating- he shows glimpses but then reverts to type very quickly. I doubt he will change much.

We have too many of this type.

Does this mean we can get Majak in for a couple of years? Handy key position defender and can rotate forward or in the ruck if need be. 

Clearly the FD rate Tomlinson and Smith ahead of OMac for our second/third KPD. 
With May, Lever, Tomlinson, Smith and both Petty and TMac who can potentially be sent back I totally understand why we would be looking to trade OMac. 
All things going well it looks like 42 will be the number for a list this year so our list looks like this:

Delist:

Dunkley, Wagner, Wagner

Retire

Bennell

Trade:

OMac, ANB, Preuss

If all seven go through (and I know TMac may well be traded along with some others depending on the offers but these three look likely) then we have 5 list positions to fill and the following picks:

23,47,62,63,83

I would think we would be aiming on pick upgrades with most of these trades and perhaps even packaging them up to a team with an academy prospect for an even higher pick. If OMac upgrades one of our picks in the 60s to 40s-50s we’ll be doing well. I imagine we would be hoping to get a couple of second rounders and a third rounder at least with the three players we have on the table, which would be a significant upgrade on our current draft prospects, who knows maybe we can even get to the point where we package up a couple of second rounders for a late first?

Edited October 3, 20204 yr by deejammin'

gee you are being generous to a number of players.surely kk and jetta and perhaps jones should also retire ,bedford hore chandler and hannan  are not required and we should be working to get them off the list , nietschke  can be moved to the rookie list . our top 10 are as good as any other in the comp but we have to make sweeping changes to the bottom half .

21 minutes ago, deejammin' said:

Clearly the FD rate Tomlinson and Smith ahead of OMac for our second/third KPD. 
With May, Lever, Tomlinson, Smith and both Petty and TMac who can potentially be sent back I totally understand why we would be looking to trade OMac. 
All things going well it looks like 42 will be the number for a list this year so our list looks like this:

Delist:

Dunkley, Wagner, Wagner

Retire

Bennell

Trade:

OMac, ANB, Preuss

If all seven go through (and I know TMac may well be traded along with some others depending on the offers but these three look likely) then we have 5 list positions to fill and the following picks:

23,47,62,63,83

I would think we would be aiming on pick upgrades with most of these trades and perhaps even packaging them up to a team with an academy prospect for an even higher pick. If OMac upgrades one of our picks in the 60s to 40s-50s we’ll be doing well. I imagine we would be hoping to get a couple of second rounders and a third rounder at least with the three players we have on the table, which would be a significant upgrade on our current draft prospects, who knows maybe we can even get to the point where we package up a couple of second rounders for a late first?

 

1 hour ago, kallangurdemon said:

gee you are being generous to a number of players.surely kk and jetta and perhaps jones should also retire ,bedford hore chandler and hannan  are not required and we should be working to get them off the list , nietschke  can be moved to the rookie list . our top 10 are as good as any other in the comp but we have to make sweeping changes to the bottom half .

 

I forgot about KK, I’d say he’s definitely going. I think Jones staying on as a playing coach one more year is a good idea and I think Jetta is contracted so unless he chooses to retire he goes around again and I’d back him in if he gets back to his best form, his game against St Kilda was pretty good. 
The thing about kicking people off the list is having quality to replace them with, Jones and Jetta stay for mine as even if we get three second rounders for OMac, Preuss and ANB (not going to happen) we would already be using four second rounders (and if we had this we’d definitely exchange two/three second rounders for a first round pick leaving more list spots), pick 43 and 62. Then as you say Chandler, Nietzsche and to a lesser extent in my opinion Hore and Bedford can also be delisted if we need more space. Jetta and Jones are more valuable to us than picks 63 and 83 this year and then when they retire in 2021 we’ll have higher picks to bring in as we’ll be back in the first round. 
I think we’ll be looking to consolidate our picks into 4 second/third round picks using Preuss, ANB and OMac as trades and then if we’re lucky we’ll land a Saad, Smith, Cameron and still be comfortably within our list size without having to turn out too many players. 
I think Jones, Jetta, Hore and Bedford all have more upside than speculative picks at this stage and we need leadership and professionalism for our still relatively young list.
It’s also dangerous to turn too many players over in one year with list sizes reducing again next year.
 

Edited October 3, 20204 yr by deejammin'