Trade Targets

[spirit of norm smith 16,615]

Agree. Love to see two skilled fast players added.  One into the midfield and another across half forward.  Prototype like Oliver Florent and a Mitch Duncan/Steele Sidebottom.  

[jumbo returns 6,741]

Specialised back pocket

Another dynamic forward

[KingDingAling 3,758]

2 hours ago, spirit of norm smith said:

Agree. Love to see two skilled fast players added.  One into the midfield and another across half forward.  Prototype like Oliver Florent and a Mitch Duncan/Steele Sidebottom.  

Florent would be great. I think Sydney is the side we could look at poaching from. They have a lot of great ball users, and may be looking to replace an inside midfielder like Kennedy. So it could work out well for both clubs. We probably have an over influx of inside mids, whereas the Swans could probably afford to let go a good baller user for the right balance in their side.

Edited July 25, 2021 by KingDingAling

[Gawndy the Great 9,011]

2 hours ago, KingDingAling said:

Florent would be great. I think Sydney is the side we could look at poaching from. They have a lot of great ball users, and may be looking to replace an inside midfielder like Kennedy. So it could work out well for both clubs. We probably have an over influx of inside mids, whereas the Swans could probably afford to let go a good baller user for the right balance in their side.

Oh I’d love to get Erol Gulden. Kids a gun. How does a Ballarat kid get picked via the Swans academy. Daylight robbery.

[rjay 25,304]

10 hours ago, CYB said:

Oh I’d love to get Erol Gulden. Kids a gun. How does a Ballarat kid get picked via the Swans academy. Daylight robbery.

Gulden played his junior footy for the Maroubra Saints, reckon that's in Sydney not Ballarat....and was in their academy for years before being picked up in the draft. 

No daylight robbery there, good player though.

[Turner 1,516]

been a couple pages since anyone has said lipinskis name so ill throw it back into the mixer for the hf/w spot and narkle ✅

[whatwhat say what 23,428]

33 minutes ago, Turner said:

been a couple pages since anyone has said lipinskis name so ill throw it back into the mixer for the hf/w spot and narkle ✅

not sure about narkle - he is an inside midfielder who refuses to tackle or work defensively, which is why he is in and out of their side all the time

[Simon Port 201]

List of viable options that would suit our side. Not a list of players I think we have any connection to as of yet just ones I think we should be looking at. 

Outside mids/ball use: Oliver Florent, Liam Duggan, Harry Perryman, Xavier Duursma, Justin Mcinerney, Sam Petrevski-Seton

Would love a josh kelly/karl amon type but that just won't happen

Defenders: Brayden Maynard, Dan Houston, Ed Richards, Darcy Tucker, Sean Lemmens, Jake Kelly, Daniel Rioli (liked his move to half back)

Forwards: Ben Ainsworth, Jack Petrucelle, Lachie Schultz, Mitch Wallis, Jeremy Finlayson, Todd Marshall, Sam Reid

[Little Goffy 14,750]

In hindsight, it is becoming easy to see why Goodwin and the selection committee persisted with Melksham for so long.  'Good Melksham' is precisely what we are missing - if that version of him was available for trade we would jump at it as top priority. No wonder we were so desperate to try to play him back into form.

Meanwhile, I actually feel like we're going to have a bit more salary cap space to play with than is generally expected over the next two to four years. Multiple mature, mid-priced players will be retiring this year and next. Several more mature players who haven't been able to crack the best-22 will also be facing reduced contracts or a polite exit.  A couple of players will definitely not be getting deals in the same range as their previous (McDonald and Brayshaw both re-signed on four year deals at their absolute peak form of 2018) and a number of our other best-22 players with contracts coming up are more the role-player types (Spargo, Petty and Hunt) who won't be looking at runaway salaries even in good form. Fritsch is a tricky one to price but his inconsistency and the fact he doesn't 'shape' the forward line around him means he won't be in the top brackets.

For trading in, there's not much that really sits in our sweet spot. Doesn't seem to be a 'good Melksham' out there for us! I dislike trading for 'premiums' like Kelly and Cerra, and then the available players swing all the way to the other end with players you try to reconstruct as something new at a new club, like Guelfi, Constable or even attempt a Mark Williams confidence transplant for Sam Petrevski-Seton.

We've got little draft value to offer - currently we have two picks in the early 30s on hand. That kind of rules out anything dramatic like a hail Mary play to add Dylan Stephens to our wingers club.

[Jjrogan 1,448]

9 minutes ago, Little Goffy said:

In hindsight, it is becoming easy to see why Goodwin and the selection committee persisted with Melksham for so long.  'Good Melksham' is precisely what we are missing - if that version of him was available for trade we would jump at it as top priority. No wonder we were so desperate to try to play him back into form.

Meanwhile, I actually feel like we're going to have a bit more salary cap space to play with than is generally expected over the next two to four years. Multiple mature, mid-priced players will be retiring this year and next. Several more mature players who haven't been able to crack the best-22 will also be facing reduced contracts or a polite exit.  A couple of players will definitely not be getting deals in the same range as their previous (McDonald and Brayshaw both re-signed on four year deals at their absolute peak form of 2018) and a number of our other best-22 players with contracts coming up are more the role-player types (Spargo, Petty and Hunt) who won't be looking at runaway salaries even in good form. Fritsch is a tricky one to price but his inconsistency and the fact he doesn't 'shape' the forward line around him means he won't be in the top brackets.

For trading in, there's not much that really sits in our sweet spot. Doesn't seem to be a 'good Melksham' out there for us! I dislike trading for 'premiums' like Kelly and Cerra, and then the available players swing all the way to the other end with players you try to reconstruct as something new at a new club, like Guelfi, Constable or even attempt a Mark Williams confidence transplant for Sam Petrevski-Seton.

We've got little draft value to offer - currently we have two picks in the early 30s on hand. That kind of rules out anything dramatic like a hail Mary play to add Dylan Stephens to our wingers club.

Nice post. Not many polished half forward flankers out there. In another universe we have Chad Wingard for any combination of harmes, viney, brayshaw. A man can dream. 

[Gawndy the Great 9,011]

5 minutes ago, Little Goffy said:

In hindsight, it is becoming easy to see why Goodwin and the selection committee persisted with Melksham for so long.  'Good Melksham' is precisely what we are missing - if that version of him was available for trade we would jump at it as top priority. No wonder we were so desperate to try to play him back into form.

Meanwhile, I actually feel like we're going to have a bit more salary cap space to play with than is generally expected over the next two to four years. Multiple mature, mid-priced players will be retiring this year and next. Several more mature players who haven't been able to crack the best-22 will also be facing reduced contracts or a polite exit.  A couple of players will definitely not be getting deals in the same range as their previous (McDonald and Brayshaw both re-signed on four year deals at their absolute peak form of 2018) and a number of our other best-22 players with contracts coming up are more the role-player types (Spargo, Petty and Hunt) who won't be looking at runaway salaries even in good form. Fritsch is a tricky one to price but his inconsistency and the fact he doesn't 'shape' the forward line around him means he won't be in the top brackets.

For trading in, there's not much that really sits in our sweet spot. Doesn't seem to be a 'good Melksham' out there for us! I dislike trading for 'premiums' like Kelly and Cerra, and then the available players swing all the way to the other end with players you try to reconstruct as something new at a new club, like Guelfi, Constable or even attempt a Mark Williams confidence transplant for Sam Petrevski-Seton.

We've got little draft value to offer - currently we have two picks in the early 30s on hand. That kind of rules out anything dramatic like a hail Mary play to add Dylan Stephens to our wingers club.

Why not offer Cerra a 600-650K 2 year deal or back end a longer term 4 year deal so that we can cope with the current salary cap restrictions and the fact that we are in a premiership window. I dont think we can go after both Maynard and Cerra unless we take a premium player off our list though but its exactly what we need to do. 

I think Jetta, Jones will probably need to retire to free up some cap space (probably worth 400-500K combined?) Mitch Brown is possibly another with Daw able to hold a ruck and forward contingency plan. That is probably another 250K. That maybe enough to get Cerra in the door. As for Maynard he is probably a 400-500K / year player. I would make Hibbo's contract extension decision on the basis of whether we could secure Maynard or not. But hard to see Hibbo in the back starting 6 once Tommo and Hore are back from injury. 

Not sure whether the numbers work but there is at least a plan to add two key players to our list and it will only cost us a first rounder (cerra) ... dont think we have one of those ..hmmmm

[Superunknown 4,241]

Looks like Clarkson might be available to draft in 2023.

(Takes Black Hat off)

[whatwhat say what 23,428]

1 minute ago, CYB said:

Why not offer Cerra a 600-650K 2 year deal or back end a longer term 4 year deal so that we can cope with the current salary cap restrictions and the fact that we are in a premiership window. I dont think we can go after both Maynard and Cerra unless we take a premium player off our list though but its exactly what we need to do. 

cerra is, reportedly, being offered $3m over four years by other clubs

[Gawndy the Great 9,011]

21 minutes ago, whatwhat say what said:

cerra is, reportedly, being offered $3m over four years by other clubs

yes i know that. what was implicit in my post was the fact that we are in (or approaching) our premiership  window. If he wants to chase success over remuneration, then he would need to take a shave...otherwise he can chase the $$$ and become part of a team that may not get to where we are right now. 2.4-2.6M over 4 years isn't that bad of an offer either... we can definitely put in further sweetener clauses if he were to back end his contract as well. We just couldn't afford $3M over 4. 

The other thing is that he is a potential great player but hasn't done much to command big $ just yet so we would be silly to pay overs, which 3 over 4 is given where he is as a player right now. 

[drdrake 3,203]

To get Cerra we would need to off load Brayshaw, that opens up some space.  The big question would be more does fremantle accept brayshaw and a mid 30s pick for Cerra

Edited July 27, 2021 by drdrake

[Nascent 9,320]

On half forward flankers we were linked to Sam Sturt from freo in his draft year. Has been quite injury prone so far and not entirely sure on his skillset due to limited exposure to him at AFL level. Maybe a WA demonlander can shed light on if he would be a suitable option.

[WA Demon Boy 966]

No chance we get Cerra - plus don't want to pay overs for him 

Would love us to get Blakey from Swans and use Salem a bit higher up the ground. 

Seems like there isn't much on offer this year so I would rather us try draft as best as we can then pay over anywhere. 

We need need outside class but we also need our mids to start kicking goals (Viney, Gus, Oliver, Jordon, Harmes) more than anything. 

Sick of seeing other mids press forward and do it. 

 

[Lil_red_fire_engine 11,288]

I would be targeting the out of contract Duggan but dont know if we have the pieces to get it done or if we could convince him to come home. Right age profile, Victorian boy and would add kicking class halfback mid or wing. 

[WA Demon Boy 966]

1 hour ago, big_red_fire_engine said:

I would be targeting the out of contract Duggan but dont know if we have the pieces to get it done or if we could convince him to come home. Right age profile, Victorian boy and would add kicking class halfback mid or wing. 

Doubt he'd leave (apparently he's in line for next Capt) 

 

[Gawndog98 364]

3 hours ago, big_red_fire_engine said:

I would be targeting the out of contract Duggan but dont know if we have the pieces to get it done or if we could convince him to come home. Right age profile, Victorian boy and would add kicking class halfback mid or wing. 

Really like the Duggan call, gone very under the radar as still out of contract, exactly what we need in our midfield and he might lack opportunity in that Eagles midfield as Shuey, Kelly, Yeo, Gaff, Sheed all still have plenty of footy left in them. I believe Duggan still has a lot of untapped potential as an inside or outside mid who has just lacked opportunity.

I actually believe our biggest need aside from a lockdown small defender to replace Hibbo (Maynard perfect target) is a quality inside mid. If you look at our midfield in comparison to the other top 4 teams it can fall away very quickly after Clarry and Trac. Saying that as well I reckon Trac is so dangerous when 1 out up forward and should be spending more stints deep forward 1v1, and he does do a lot of hack kicks out of the midfield. Here are the inside midfields of the other top 4 teams:

Western Bulldogs: Bont, Macrae, Libba, Dunkley, Treloar, Bailey Smith

Geelong: Dangerfield, Guthrie, Duncan, Selwood, Menegola, Parfitt

Brisbane: Neale, Lyons, Zorko, McCluggage, Bailey, Dev Rob (not high quality yet but really like him)

Melbourne: Oliver, Petracca, Viney, Harmes, Jordon, Brayshaw

 

The bulldogs are a bit of an anomaly with how ridiculously good their midfield is but if you look past the first two names of our midfield in comparison with the other teams I believe there is a stark difference. Our midfield can become too reliant sometimes on Clarry and Trac and worst case scenario if one of them ever got injured we would be in serious strife. We ain't gonna have the cash to chase the big names like J.Kelly so here are a few cheaper mids that might be available.

Adam Cerra - I believe whoever lands Cerra is going to significantly overpay for him, I personally don't see the insane hype he gets from the media sometimes, yeah his kicking looks sexy sometimes but I have my doubts he will ever reach those elite disposal numbers plus we won't have the assets to pluck him out of Freo which will be required which is a top 10 pick (which I think is way overs).

Matt Crouch - All signs point to him heading home to Victoria. Not a sexy player as he is known to be low-impact-per-possession but hard to argue with an average of over 30 disposals per game every year since 2017 (taking out last year with shortened quarters). His kicking and lack of versatility aren't great, I see him as a similar player to Jarryd Lyons. Bit of an injury risk too with him sitting out this year with a groin injury. However these factors mean he isn't going to cost a bucketload of cash, he is a free agent so doesn't cost anything at the trade table and is still just 26, I think he would add really good depth to the midfield.

Charlie Constable and Quinton Narkle - Both have lacked opportunity in the Geelong midfield and have a lot of untapped potential. I have my doubts as to whether Narkle has enough of a defensive side to his game and ball-winning ability to make it as a quality midfielder. Constable has been tearing up the VFL, 191cm strong mid again in the Lyons mold who also has a nice defensive side to his game. Averaged 21.4 touches in his debut but since lacked opportunity in his preferred role. Narkle is the better kick but Constable possesses a strong set of hands where either can be up forward too. Both will cost nothing, low risk, high upside.

Patrick Lipinski - Very similar player to Narkle, with the same strengths and weaknesses I mentioned. Diinterested with defensive side of the game at times is why he can't hold a spot in the dogs side but a good ball user who can also play across half forward but best position is inside mid.

Brayden Fiorini - In a rich vein of form at the moment after getting his inside mid opportunity. Can rack up touches with ease but ball use is iffy at times and small frame can lead to him being exposed defensively sometimes. Gold Coast has a lot of high draft picks to fit into their midfield there may be better opportunity elsewhere however is under contract until 2023.

Luke Dunstan - Had a good year but is a bit vanilla. Similar player to Matt Crouch but Crouch does it with better production. Also a free agent but a pass for mine there are better options.

Liam Duggan - mentioned above, originally drafted as an inside midfielder he has a really nice blend of inside/outside to his game. Tough as nails and a really nice ball user who is accountable defensively as well. Similar player to Cerra, I believe he could be even better than Cerra provided the opportunity to thrive as an inside mid. As mentioned OOC, from Vic, and still just 24.

Few others to mention who I believe are unrealistic targets, Cam Guthrie is surprisingly still OOC and a free agent at that but just can't see him leaving Geelong. Tom Mitchell might be up for grabs but Hawks will be looking for a top 10 pick which we won't have. One more which is a bit off topic is I reckon a Steele Sidebottom for Weideman swap with a few other assets moving in there is a deal makes a lot of sense for both parties.

I also believe in time Laurie can develop into a damaging high-impact midfielder in the Shane Edwards mold, as could Kozzy in a mid Walters mold. Those 2 will predominately still be small forwards though, just can provide valuable POD to run through there. In time Rivers could become an elite pure midfielder as he has that inside/outside blend which he showed great production as a pure mid in his under 18 year, but he doesn't have the tank yet to do it, in time though that's a move I'd make and Bowey can take his spot at half back. Goody will never do mid Salem and I'm okay with that as he is elevated himself to a very good-elite half back this year which im happy not to mess with that. I think Jordon and Sparrow's potential is capped as role players which is okay but when you come up against the top 4 midfields as mentioned is that enough to get you over the line? That might be a bit harsh on Jordon as his production has been capped by opportunity and time-on-ground but I think you'd want to see another step-up in his development next year. 

 

[adonski 12,907]

15 minutes ago, Gawndog98 said:

Really like the Duggan call, gone very under the radar as still out of contract, exactly what we need in our midfield and he might lack opportunity in that Eagles midfield as Shuey, Kelly, Yeo, Gaff, Sheed all still have plenty of footy left in them. I believe Duggan still has a lot of untapped potential as an inside or outside mid who has just lacked opportunity.

I actually believe our biggest need aside from a lockdown small defender to replace Hibbo (Maynard perfect target) is a quality inside mid. If you look at our midfield in comparison to the other top 4 teams it can fall away very quickly after Clarry and Trac. Saying that as well I reckon Trac is so dangerous when 1 out up forward and should be spending more stints deep forward 1v1, and he does do a lot of hack kicks out of the midfield. Here are the inside midfields of the other top 4 teams:

Western Bulldogs: Bont, Macrae, Libba, Dunkley, Treloar, Bailey Smith

Geelong: Dangerfield, Guthrie, Duncan, Selwood, Menegola, Parfitt

Brisbane: Neale, Lyons, Zorko, McCluggage, Bailey, Dev Rob (not high quality yet but really like him)

Melbourne: Oliver, Petracca, Viney, Harmes, Jordon, Brayshaw

 

The bulldogs are a bit of an anomaly with how ridiculously good their midfield is but if you look past the first two names of our midfield in comparison with the other teams I believe there is a stark difference. Our midfield can become too reliant sometimes on Clarry and Trac and worst case scenario if one of them ever got injured we would be in serious strife. We ain't gonna have the cash to chase the big names like J.Kelly so here are a few cheaper mids that might be available.

Adam Cerra - I believe whoever lands Cerra is going to significantly overpay for him, I personally don't see the insane hype he gets from the media sometimes, yeah his kicking looks sexy sometimes but I have my doubts he will ever reach those elite disposal numbers plus we won't have the assets to pluck him out of Freo which will be required which is a top 10 pick (which I think is way overs).

Matt Crouch - All signs point to him heading home to Victoria. Not a sexy player as he is known to be low-impact-per-possession but hard to argue with an average of over 30 disposals per game every year since 2017 (taking out last year with shortened quarters). His kicking and lack of versatility aren't great, I see him as a similar player to Jarryd Lyons. Bit of an injury risk too with him sitting out this year with a groin injury. However these factors mean he isn't going to cost a bucketload of cash, he is a free agent so doesn't cost anything at the trade table and is still just 26, I think he would add really good depth to the midfield.

Charlie Constable and Quinton Narkle - Both have lacked opportunity in the Geelong midfield and have a lot of untapped potential. I have my doubts as to whether Narkle has enough of a defensive side to his game and ball-winning ability to make it as a quality midfielder. Constable has been tearing up the VFL, 191cm strong mid again in the Lyons mold who also has a nice defensive side to his game. Averaged 21.4 touches in his debut but since lacked opportunity in his preferred role. Narkle is the better kick but Constable possesses a strong set of hands where either can be up forward too. Both will cost nothing, low risk, high upside.

Patrick Lipinski - Very similar player to Narkle, with the same strengths and weaknesses I mentioned. Diinterested with defensive side of the game at times is why he can't hold a spot in the dogs side but a good ball user who can also play across half forward but best position is inside mid.

Brayden Fiorini - In a rich vein of form at the moment after getting his inside mid opportunity. Can rack up touches with ease but ball use is iffy at times and small frame can lead to him being exposed defensively sometimes. Gold Coast has a lot of high draft picks to fit into their midfield there may be better opportunity elsewhere however is under contract until 2023.

Luke Dunstan - Had a good year but is a bit vanilla. Similar player to Matt Crouch but Crouch does it with better production. Also a free agent but a pass for mine there are better options.

Liam Duggan - mentioned above, originally drafted as an inside midfielder he has a really nice blend of inside/outside to his game. Tough as nails and a really nice ball user who is accountable defensively as well. Similar player to Cerra, I believe he could be even better than Cerra provided the opportunity to thrive as an inside mid. As mentioned OOC, from Vic, and still just 24.

Few others to mention who I believe are unrealistic targets, Cam Guthrie is surprisingly still OOC and a free agent at that but just can't see him leaving Geelong. Tom Mitchell might be up for grabs but Hawks will be looking for a top 10 pick which we won't have. One more which is a bit off topic is I reckon a Steele Sidebottom for Weideman swap with a few other assets moving in there is a deal makes a lot of sense for both parties.

I also believe in time Laurie can develop into a damaging high-impact midfielder in the Shane Edwards mold, as could Kozzy in a mid Walters mold. Those 2 will predominately still be small forwards though, just can provide valuable POD to run through there. In time Rivers could become an elite pure midfielder as he has that inside/outside blend which he showed great production as a pure mid in his under 18 year, but he doesn't have the tank yet to do it, in time though that's a move I'd make and Bowey can take his spot at half back. Goody will never do mid Salem and I'm okay with that as he is elevated himself to a very good-elite half back this year which im happy not to mess with that. I think Jordon and Sparrow's potential is capped as role players which is okay but when you come up against the top 4 midfields as mentioned is that enough to get you over the line? That might be a bit harsh on Jordon as his production has been capped by opportunity and time-on-ground but I think you'd want to see another step-up in his development next year. 

 

Been thinking this for a while (even when we were winning) is that Oliver & Petracca carry too much of the load. 

Viney can, on his day be excellent, but having donated his brain to science often makes mistakes similar to Harmes.

Compounded with Brayshaw's moment into full-time podcasting it does get a bit thin. 

Personally I'd move Rivers or even Bowey (in time) to the wing, and try and reignite Brayshaw's career in his actual natural position. 

Maybe even Rivers into an inside mid role. Reminds me a bit of Yeo, booming kick, tough, good mark for a mid (not Yeo good, but close to it).

On Jordon, think you're underselling him a little, reminds me a bit of Macrae, albeit not as good as athlete. Obviously tough to gauge his upside though.

Edited July 27, 2021 by adonski

[Gawndog98 364]

15 minutes ago, adonski said:

Been thinking this for a while (even when we were winning) is that Oliver & Petracca carry too much of the load. 

Viney can, on his day be excellent, but having donated his brain to science often makes mistakes similar to Harmes.

Compounded with Brayshaw's moment into full-time podcasting it does get a bit thin. 

Personally I'd move Rivers or even Bowey (in time) to the wing, and try and reignite Brayshaw's career in his actual natural position. 

Maybe even Rivers into an inside mid role. Reminds me a bit of Yeo, booming kick, tough, good mark for a mid (not Yeo good, but close to it).

On Jordon, think you're underselling him a little, reminds me a bit of Macrae, albeit not as good as athlete. Obviously tough to gauge his upside though.

I agree with all of that, Viney, Harmes, and Brayshaw are all very limited footballers at times and fairly inconsistent. I think Rivers is the answer long term, Yeo is a great example of the type of player he could be. I think we should take a punt on someone like Constable and if Crouch didn't cost too much salary wise and his body was right I would welcome him.

[adonski 12,907]

13 minutes ago, Gawndog98 said:

I agree with all of that, Viney, Harmes, and Brayshaw are all very limited footballers at times and fairly inconsistent. I think Rivers is the answer long term, Yeo is a great example of the type of player he could be. I think we should take a punt on someone like Constable and if Crouch didn't cost too much salary wise and his body was right I would welcome him.

Constable and Crouch are too similar to Viney, Harmes. Big bodied ball winners with little versatility.

Shame there's a bidding war for Cerra, he would be nice as a cherry on top type mid...but not for $700k. Keen to see Carlton put all their eggs in one basket again tho.

[BW511 2,724]

13 hours ago, Jjrogan said:

Nice post. Not many polished half forward flankers out there. In another universe we have Chad Wingard for any combination of harmes, viney, brayshaw. A man can dream. 

I suspect Wingard is very gettable, but I would not want him. Everything I’ve read suggests he isn’t that interested in being a footballer, just does it to pay the bills. He plays that way too.

Sidebottom is a good one. He could easily play wing, HBF or HFF for us. Not sure we can get him but would dangle a year longer contract to entice him.

We are very light on in the middle and I think someone in the Crouch/Constable model could be useful. You can’t deny their ability to get their hands on the footy and they do it every week, unlike our guys (beyond Clayton and I believe James Jordon will evolve further to do similar)

 

 

[Gawndog98 364]

9 hours ago, adonski said:

Constable and Crouch are too similar to Viney, Harmes. Big bodied ball winners with little versatility.

Shame there's a bidding war for Cerra, he would be nice as a cherry on top type mid...but not for $700k. Keen to see Carlton put all their eggs in one basket again tho.

I'd argue Cerra doesn't have too much versatility either. Agreed it will be funny to see Carlton put all theirs eggs in one basket again which will destroy their salary cap overpaying B-graders like St Kilda and will be stuck mid table.