TRAINING: Friday 6th December 2019

[Watson11 2,219]

8 hours ago, McQueen said:

 

Good grief!

You reckon Hardwick would play ANB for averaging a single tackle more per game? 
ANB vs Castagna

Good grief. You’ve only compared 2019. ANB would have been selected in round 1 2019.

ANB v Castagna 2018

[fr_ap 2,433]

8 hours ago, Fifty-5 said:

Oh boy, I can buy a Castagna vs ANB comparison, but I think Castagna is a superior player.

ANB is not even in the same postcode as Kane Lambert who is a terrific player

https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/why-richmond-star-kane-lambert-is-at-centre-of-underrated-debate-between-jason-dunstall-and-mark-robinson/news-story/1fa45505dcd24f5fbaab498f986c266d

"Lambert finished second in last year’s Jack Dyer Medal and earned a spot in the All-Australian squad, after finishing third in the best and fairest in Richmond’s premiership winning 2017 campaign."

Read my post again.

Did I say that ANB is as good as or better than Lambert? 

Did I compare their skills or stats?

The only comparison I made is that Lambert, like ANB, is not particularly stylish or fashionable, yet, like ANB, is very effective for his team and their gamestyle.

Ask any Richmond fan about Lambert - they don't have anyone else who can play his role. For that reason, he is crucial. That's my point, we have no other high hff/mid who is happy to run all day from contest to contest to tackle, but not necessarily win the ball. When ANB is missing or down on form, it is obvious to me that we miss the extra number at many contests between the arcs and also miss the implied pressure an extra number creates. I suspect the only things obvious to you are his turnovers, small stature and low draft pick. 

For what it's worth, I agree Lambert is a much better player than ANB. 

I'm not saying he's in our top 10 or top 5 players at all, just that his role is important and we have none other who can play it. On his day, he can play it well. Needs to be his day more often though.

 

[Wiseblood 24,637]

21 minutes ago, fr_ap said:

I'm not saying he's in our top 10 or top 5 players at all, just that his role is important and we have none other who can play it. On his day, he can play it well. Needs to be his day more often though.

 

What is his role, though?  

He had a pretty good 2018, although hints of true form were there throughout.  I even defended him when others knocked him.

However, the hints we saw in 2018 became major issues and ones in which I don't think he can overcome.  He has a dip but is an extremely limited footballer.  He doesn't go hard enough, doesn't hit the scoreboard enough and, this season especially, didn't hit the scoreboard enough.  We just can't have that in our side.

Hopefully with a fitter Melksham, Hannan and even AVB, he will become nothing more than a handy depth player in 2020.

[Satyriconhome 10,340]

"Alex Neal-Bullen had an awful 2019 but is an endurance and pressure specialist and a best-22 staple when in form"

From AFL website, nobody is disagreeing he has limitations, but Goodwin, when ANB is in form, seems willing to overlook these doesn't he

[Satyriconhome 10,340]

8 minutes ago, Wiseblood said:

What is his role, though?  

He had a pretty good 2018, although hints of true form were there throughout.  I even defended him when others knocked him.

However, the hints we saw in 2018 became major issues and ones in which I don't think he can overcome.  He has a dip but is an extremely limited footballer.  He doesn't go hard enough, doesn't hit the scoreboard enough and, this season especially, didn't hit the scoreboard enough.  We just can't have that in our side.

Hopefully with a fitter Melksham, Hannan and even AVB, he will become nothing more than a handy depth player in 2020.

We had a whole team that was like that in the season just gone, but ANB seems to be the new whipping boy

[Rod Grinter Riot Squad 5,654]

4 minutes ago, Satyriconhome said:

We had a whole team that was like that in the season just gone, but ANB seems to be the new whipping boy

He is not the new whipping boy, but a topic of conversation.

 

overall ANB was fantastic in 2018, despite the odd missed easy goal, last year he was a disappointment (he wasn’t on his own in that), I think on his 2018 form he has an important role to play, but if he can’t replicate that form he will have a limited future in the AFL

[Wiseblood 24,637]

14 minutes ago, Rod Grinter Riot Squad said:

He is not the new whipping boy, but a topic of conversation.

 

overall ANB was fantastic in 2018, despite the odd missed easy goal, last year he was a disappointment (he wasn’t on his own in that), I think on his 2018 form he has an important role to play, but if he can’t replicate that form he will have a limited future in the AFL

2020 will tell us which season was the anomaly - 2018 or 2019.  My money is on the latter.

[McQueen 17,864]

1 hour ago, Watson11 said:

Good grief. You’ve only compared 2019. ANB would have been selected in round 1 2019.

ANB v Castagna 2018

Lol

[Moonshadow 17,557]

So, any training on Monday?

FMD 

[JakovichScissorKick 771]

12 hours ago, Satyriconhome said:

"Alex Neal-Bullen had an awful 2019 but is an endurance and pressure specialist and a best-22 staple when in form"

From AFL website, nobody is disagreeing he has limitations, but Goodwin, when ANB is in form, seems willing to overlook these doesn't he

Yup,  one of Goodwins flaws.

[Watson11 2,219]

14 hours ago, Wiseblood said:

2020 will tell us which season was the anomaly - 2018 or 2019.  My money is on the latter.

He was better than average in 2017 too Wiseblood. If he, like 90% of the team, is fit and gets his confidence back he will do his role as he brings something different and runs hard both ways.  He has his limitations but if he gets back to 16-18 possessions, 5-6 score involvements, and ~5 tackles, then I’ll hope he reduces his turnovers from 4 a game but I accept he has flaws but still brings more than he costs. His role in doing the job on half back running machines seems unrecognised.  Think the round 22 game against GWS in 2018 where he cut Whitfield out of the game.

Whitfields 2018 Stats

[Wiseblood 24,637]

1 hour ago, Watson11 said:

He was better than average in 2017 too Wiseblood. If he, like 90% of the team, is fit and gets his confidence back he will do his role as he brings something different and runs hard both ways.  He has his limitations but if he gets back to 16-18 possessions, 5-6 score involvements, and ~5 tackles, then I’ll hope he reduces his turnovers from 4 a game but I accept he has flaws but still brings more than he costs. His role in doing the job on half back running machines seems unrecognised.  Think the round 22 game against GWS in 2018 where he cut Whitfield out of the game.

Whitfields 2018 Stats

I'll agree that his 2017 season wasn't too bad to go along with a good 2018.  

However, in both of those seasons we saw flashes of what quickly became a regular occurrence in dropped marks, missed targets, fumbles under pressure and missed shots on goal.  

I'll say it again - he is handy depth for us, but if he starts in Round 1 next season then I'll be disappointed in those who haven't come on to take his place.  I won't blame ANB for that - if he is fit and doing everything asked of him, while others are not, then he deserves his spot.  But if guys like Hannan, AVB, Melksham, Pickett etc are doing what is expected of them, then there won't be a place in the side for him.  He is best 30, but not best 22.

[Pates 9,625]

I know this thread's being a bit derailed with talk on ANB so I'll give my two cents, when teams are playing well there are certain average players who seem to lift or at least their deficiencies are less prevalent and damaging to the team. ANB is one such player, the whole team in 2019 was awful (save for a few individuals that were able to maintain high quality output), but because of that ANB's deficiencies were full on display and exposed. 

His game, his worth to the team is his high athletic output and the one percenters that he produced in 2018, his role wasn't glamorous but it seemed to play an important part in that patch between half forward and deep forward. Whether or not he can reproduce that is a big question but if he can, then yes I think he's in Goodwin's 22 (frustrating as it may be for some).

[Axis of Bob 11,222]

I think ANB will be there in round 1. The role of small forward needs different types of players, and he has that bulk gut running ability to make like unpleasant for the opposition. Yes, he stuffs up some opportunities, but his defensive work is really good and he makes us a better team. He’s a serviceable player in a good team, but an ordinary player in a bad team. 

I suppose it depends on your perspective. If you mainly look at mistakes then you’ll hate him, but if you look at what he can bring to the team then you can see the value. 

[grazman 7,299]

If the biggest issue for us in pre-season is debating the limitations of ANB and whether he plays Rd 1 then we have had a pretty good preparation.  Fingers crossed it continues.

[jnrmac 19,908]

On 12/7/2019 at 11:44 AM, Fifty-5 said:

Gysberts cops plenty for that pic because of the relatively light weight but it does depend on how many sets and reps he's done.

Maybe because he refused to run a time trial because it was too hot....

The lack of leadership at our club was unbelievable as evidenced by announcing the youngest AFL captain in history.

It was a cluster888k of the highest order that we are still emerging from.

[jnrmac 19,908]

10 hours ago, Axis of Bob said:

I think ANB will be there in round 1. The role of small forward needs different types of players, and he has that bulk gut running ability to make like unpleasant for the opposition. Yes, he stuffs up some opportunities, but his defensive work is really good and he makes us a better team. He’s a serviceable player in a good team, but an ordinary player in a bad team. 

I suppose it depends on your perspective. If you mainly look at mistakes then you’ll hate him, but if you look at what he can bring to the team then you can see the value. 

The problem with this is that when he's in a chain and he is responsible for stuffing up that chain the effect is well, a chain reaction. The ball is turned over, efforts are wasted, frustration is built and player buy-in to the the team ethos is eroded. Similarly when shots at goal are frittered away it is a cascading affect - bad for us, good for the opposition

Role players are great if they can play their role. Not do 6 or 7 things out of 10.

[Demon Dynasty 17,098]

On 12/9/2019 at 9:08 AM, jnrmac said:

Maybe because he refused to run a time trial because it was too hot....

The lack of leadership at our club was unbelievable as evidenced by announcing the youngest AFL captain in history.

It was a cluster888k of the highest order that we are still emerging from.

Even a top VFL club would probaly have performed as well or better if there was a relegation model in place.

Coming from a very long way back were we and some of those skeletons probably resurfaced a little at times this season imv (mentally).

Hopefully we can exorcise a few more of those skellies in 2020.  Going to be a very interesting and a telling one for this club.

[Demon Dynasty 17,098]

On 12/9/2019 at 9:11 AM, jnrmac said:

The problem with this is that when he's in a chain and he is responsible for stuffing up that chain the effect is well, a chain reaction. The ball is turned over, efforts are wasted, frustration is built and player buy-in to the the team ethos is eroded. Similarly when shots at goal are frittered away it is a cascading affect - bad for us, good for the opposition

Role players are great if they can play their role. Not do 6 or 7 things out of 10.

The turnover/clanger missed goal factor also gives the opposition coaching panel and its team a bit of an out in the sense that if they know a player isn't very damaging with ball in hand then his direct opponent can be given a bit more licence.  Thereby offering more time, space & freedom to play forward of the ball or away from a stoppage as an additional outlet / spread player.  Off the leash if you like.

Allocate a very good player as the match up also and all of a sudden a player like ANB has a big task on his hands not only trying to counter that disrespect / positioning factor (space/time) but also the improved finishing opportunities now given to an already highly talented opponent.  Double whammy.

As good a run with / tackle athlete as ANB might be, and he is elite in this regard, that will end up being a major component of his role in most matches ie;  running his butt off all day trying to keep opponent's output/impact to as little as possible.  Too stuffed to finish off his own good work or that of others in a chain much of the time and often handing it straight back or just selling a player into trouble instead of finishing off the good work at the end of a chain himself (major fatigue factor>finishing/decision making eroded>confidence down of both individual & team).  If his skills aren't that clean to begin with then we are talking major issues with ball in hand.

Whether the regular chain busting or goal inaccuracy is coming from say an ANB, Gus, Harmes or Billy Blogs is irrelevant, the spin off effect right through the team can be a potential morale and momentum killer.

The key is to minimise the weak side of a player like ANB imho.  His running and pressure factor side is not an issue.  We all know he is at the top of the game here.

And this is what separates an ok/good coach from a very good to elite one imo.  The latter see these weaknesses in players and, where possible, allows them to work on it big time.  Maybe focussing a little less time/effort on the exisiting strengths to do so if necessary.

Ensuring that they don't let up until improvements are made and the balance of elite running plus AFL average to good (or better) decision making and disposal is added to a player's arsenal.  Turning him from fringe/borderline to AFL standard, quality or even top end in some cases.

Of course even after all that the player might have his/her own limitations and might not improve much at all.  But assuming a quality coach, support staff, facilities and a number of pre-seasons he/she will at least be given every opportunity to do so.

Edited December 10, 2019 by Rusty Nails

[jnrmac 19,908]

17 hours ago, Rusty Nails said:

The turnover/clanger missed goal factor also gives the opposition coaching panel and its team a bit of an out in the sense that if they know a player isn't very damaging with ball in hand then his direct opponent can be given a bit more licence.  Thereby offering more time, space & freedom to play forward of the ball or away from a stoppage as an additional outlet / spread player.  Off the leash if you like.

Allocate a very good player as the match up also and all of a sudden a player like ANB has a big task on his hands not only trying to counter that disrespect / positioning factor (space/time) but also the improved finishing opportunities now given to an already highly talented opponent.  Double whammy.

As good a run with / tackle athlete as ANB might be, and he is elite in this regard, that will end up being a major component of his role in most matches ie;  running his butt off all day trying to keep opponent's output/impact to as little as possible.  Too stuffed to finish off his own good work or that of others in a chain much of the time and often handing it straight back or just selling a player into trouble instead of finishing off the good work at the end of a chain himself (major fatigue factor>finishing/decision making eroded>confidence down of both individual & team).  If his skills aren't that clean to begin with then we are talking major issues with ball in hand.

Whether the regular chain busting or goal inaccuracy is coming from say an ANB, Gus, Harmes or Billy Blogs is irrelevant, the spin off effect right through the team can be a potential morale and momentum killer.

The key is to minimise the weak side of a player like ANB imho.  His running and pressure factor side is not an issue.  We all know he is at the top of the game here.

And this is what separates an ok/good coach from a very good to elite one imo.  The latter see these weaknesses in players and, where possible, allows them to work on it big time.  Maybe focussing a little less time/effort on the exisiting strengths to do so if necessary.

Ensuring that they don't let up until improvements are made and the balance of elite running plus AFL average to good (or better) decision making and disposal is added to a player's arsenal.  Turning him from fringe/borderline to AFL standard, quality or even top end in some cases.

Of course even after all that the player might have his/her own limitations and might not improve much at all.  But assuming a quality coach, support staff, facilities and a number of pre-seasons he/she will at least be given every opportunity to do so.

Comprehensive response.

This is where game plan comes into it. Richmond were complete t/over merchants until they developed a plan that the players believed in. They didn't suddenly develop elite skills but the game plan took pressure off the player with ball in hand. Players running to the right space, for example make the kickers job a lot easier . Running to space allows the kicker to put the ball in front of the leading player rather than trying to pinpoint a pass under pressure.

Open fwd lines also make it easier for fwds to run into space.

A large amt of this stuff is coaching which is why I blame Goodwin for the appalling year we just had. Sure we had injuries but players were hopeless with ball in had and our fwd structure was terrible. He admitted as much himself when he said that we didn't focus n the basics but tried to introduce "nuance" to the game plan.