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Lefty

Did they cost Max an AA nod by...

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... making him tag Grundy and not play his usual game?

I think the AA committee will give Grundy the No.1 ruck position because Collingwood have had the better year and Grundy's disposal stats have been superior to Max. Max is probably the better tap ruckman with hitouts to advantage and better at marking around the ground but Grundy has been racking up disposals and kicking goals. I don't think many (outside of Dees supporters) would complain about Grundy getting No. 1 ruck in AA. I think not allowing Max to play his normal game and give him the chance to towel up Grundy for the second time this year has cost him a spot in the All Australian team full stop. It's like conceding that Grundy is the better player.

Thoughts.

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Gawn doesn't have much chance of AA this year.  Probably make the squad but it'll be Grundy in the 22

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Serious question. David King claims Salem was Sidebottom's man. How would he know that? I could see that most of the time Frost was on Elliott, but after that I couldn't tell who was playing on whom. Was it clear to others that Salem was meant to be playing on Sidebottom?

My suspicion is that what King saw was when Goodwin decided to semi-reinstate last year's ploy of running an extra into the midfield at a centre bounce. When we did that (it was usually Baker or JKH), because of the 6-6-6 requirement, one of Salem or Jones was nominally in the wing position but about 1 metre from the back edge of the square. That had them 30 metres away from the Collingwood wingman, who was sometimes Sidebottom. When the ball was bounced, Baker/JKH ran forward and Salem/Jones ran into the 50m arc to pick up a man.

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2 minutes ago, DubDee said:

Gawn doesn't have much chance of AA this year.  Probably make the squad but it'll be Grundy in the 22

I agree. I love Gawn and he has been one of the only enjoyable players to watch this year but I think he'll make the squad and not the actual team.

Where was it said that Max was instructed to tag Grundy? I must have missed that in my footy blackout from the end of the game until this morning.

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Just now, La Dee-vina Comedia said:

Serious question. David King claims Salem was Sidebottom's man. How would he know that? I could see that most of the time Frost was on Elliott, but after that I couldn't tell who was playing on whom. Was it clear to others that Salem was meant to be playing on Sidebottom?

My suspicion is that what King saw was when Goodwin decided to semi-reinstate last year's ploy of running an extra into the midfield at a centre bounce. When we did that (it was usually Baker or JKH), because of the 6-6-6 requirement, one of Salem or Jones was nominally in the wing position but about 1 metre from the back edge of the square. That had them 30 metres away from the Collingwood wingman, who was sometimes Sidebottom. When the ball was bounced, Baker/JKH ran forward and Salem/Jones ran into the 50m arc to pick up a man.

When on the wing Salem was on the same side as Sidebottom but was playing the position on the HBF edge of the square. Sidebottom was alone for the majority of the game. If Salem was playing wing he was instructed to play a certain way and that did not include an instruction to man Sidebottom. Not Salem's fault.

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3 minutes ago, Demonland said:

I agree. I love Gawn and he has been one of the only enjoyable players to watch this year but I think he'll make the squad and not the actual team.

Where was it said that Max was instructed to tag Grundy? I must have missed that in my footy blackout from the end of the game until this morning.

Max has come out and said he was told to tag Grundy by Goodwin.

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Just now, dazzledavey36 said:

Max has come out and said he was told to tag Grundy by Goodwin.

There are not enough facepalm memes on the internet to express my feelings towards this.

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As a ruck, Gawn has had a far superior year than Grundy. Its not even close. Gawn is a pure ruckman, Grundy is just a fourth midfielder who competes in the ruck. Big difference. If the AA was done seriously then Gawn is the only choice.

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The fact that Goodwin made Gawn, the best ruckman in the league, tag Grundy makes me feel sick. How can a coach be this dumb? Does Fyfe tag Martin? Wtf is this strategy? Let’s nullify our best player by making him nullify an equally good player. And let’s do it in the ruck. Words fail me. 

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2 minutes ago, KingDingAling said:

As a ruck, Gawn has had a far superior year than Grundy. Its not even close. Gawn is a pure ruckman, Grundy is just a fourth midfielder who competes in the ruck. Big difference. If the AA was done seriously then Gawn is the only choice.

Correct. If you’re picking players on their positions, Gawn is hands down the best RUCKMAN in the game. His ruck stats are simply superior. So if you’re picking a ruckman it has to be Gawn. If you’re just picking 22 midfielders than sure Grundy gets the nod. 

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3 minutes ago, Jaded said:

The fact that Goodwin made Gawn, the best ruckman in the league, tag Grundy makes me feel sick. How can a coach be this dumb? Does Fyfe tag Martin? Wtf is this strategy? Let’s nullify our best player by making him nullify an equally good player. And let’s do it in the ruck. Words fail me. 

Whilst I don't think it was a good move in response to your question yes, Ross Lyon is well known to let Fyfe go head to head with the oppositions best player

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I think Goodwin made the decision that Collingwood would be affected more than Melb if that tag was in on grundy. Nothing to do with conceding he was the better player. But, in a year when there’s previous little of my interest left  in anything this club do on field, to see max playing his natural game and win that battle would have been good. 

Seems like whatever string goody tries to pull it backfires,  and when it doesn’t we miss easy shots at goal until it does.  I know it’s not a part of this thread but 1.4 from Fritsch was just soul destroying. 

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2 minutes ago, Pennant St Dee said:

Whilst I don't think it was a good move in response to your question yes, Ross Lyon is well known to let Fyfe go head to head with the oppositions best player

Big difference going head to head and being made to change how you play to specifically nullify an opponent. 

Obviously Gawn and Grundy would go head to head. But the instructions should have been, made him chase you. Our mark him. Smash him in hit outs. Do your thing. Not, don’t worry about your game just ensure Grundy is nullified. It makes no sense. 

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Taking the blinkers off- I think Grundy has had a better season than Gawn this year.  There’s definitely room for both in the AA team, just as there was last year.  

Gawn’s year holds up against any other in the competition and is as good as Grundy’s was in 2018 when he was on the AA bench.

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36 minutes ago, Lefty said:

... making him tag Grundy and not play his usual game?

I think the AA committee will give Grundy the No.1 ruck position because Collingwood have had the better year and Grundy's disposal stats have been superior to Max. Max is probably the better tap ruckman with hitouts to advantage and better at marking around the ground but Grundy has been racking up disposals and kicking goals. I don't think many (outside of Dees supporters) would complain about Grundy getting No. 1 ruck in AA. I think not allowing Max to play his normal game and give him the chance to towel up Grundy for the second time this year has cost him a spot in the All Australian team full stop. It's like conceding that Grundy is the better player.

Thoughts.

They will both get in. 

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24 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Max has come out and said he was told to tag Grundy by Goodwin.

I'm not quite sure how this is any different from how the game would have been played if Gawn wasn't "tagging" Grundy. 

Having said that, if there is some difference, Gawn getting that experience in a year when it doesn't matter makes some sense. Gawn might not be the best ruckman in the competition forever, and when the time comes that he comes up against a better ruckman, it would be useful for him to understand how to nullify said opponent.  

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17 minutes ago, Wells 11 said:

I think Goodwin made the decision that Collingwood would be affected more than Melb if that tag was in on grundy. Nothing to do with conceding he was the better player. But, in a year when there’s previous little of my interest left  in anything this club do on field, to see max playing his natural game and win that battle would have been good. 

Seems like whatever string goody tries to pull it backfires,  and when it doesn’t we miss easy shots at goal until it does.  I know it’s not a part of this thread but 1.4 from Fritsch was just soul destroying. 

Goodwin cannot merge a team. His coaching and strategies demand that one individual carry the load when the chips are down or form is once again waning. Fritsch just happened to be the one that day who was able to get the ball and it is bad luck that his kicking boots were muddy when taking shots. There were no forwards leading to space - it is not demanded of them - so Fritta took the initiative and was effective. There has not been adequate kicking practice under Goodwin where set shots and snaps at goal are required; your grandmother would have better accuracy than a Goodwin-coached team. I'd reckon Fritta will do something about his kicking in the search for improved accuracy and reliability - he was once very accurate! Moving to the seniors, he has gained in some regards and lost a few others under Goodwin. 

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Gawn has been a giant this year, but got beaten a couple of times by a taller, stronger opponent

Hickey gets under his skin, as did the big boy from Freo (name eludes me right now)

Grundy has beaten all his opponents 

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Gawn tagging anyone is a fundamental acknowledgement by the coach that we are inferior to the opposition. Max is a match winner and drives our performance when he is on song and the team plays to his game.

Coaching error showing lack of creativity and match awareness. No wonder we remain nearly, but not quite, there.

As for AA, Max should be absolute certainty. When the number of kicks and possessions, not ruckcraft, are criteria for selecting a ruckmen, then the game and the stats are losing credibility.

 

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There’s another ‘T’ word I’m thinking of right now and it’s not ‘tag’. 

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2 hours ago, Demonland said:

When on the wing Salem was on the same side as Sidebottom but was playing the position on the HBF edge of the square. Sidebottom was alone for the majority of the game. If Salem was playing wing he was instructed to play a certain way and that did not include an instruction to man Sidebottom. Not Salem's fault.

Definitely this. Jones was another I saw start there for centre bounces, and they were clearly  under instruction to not worry about Sidebottom and drop back after the bounce.

I agree with Kings article, they were both incredibly dumb moves. Didn’t agree with the pot shot at Salem at the end though.

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26 minutes ago, McQueen said:

There’s another ‘T’ word I’m thinking of right now and it’s not ‘tag’. 

Tequila?  Steady tiger, it's only Monday!

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It is actually a good time to give players different roles.  Given that the last time they played, Gawn tagged Grundy in the second half to big effect was perhaps why he was asked to do so again.  Nullify Grundy, and we have the marking power and contested players to make it a good strategy.

Max plays in a team.  if the coach says ‘stand on your head in the goal square for the benefit fo the team’, then he should do it.  AA?  Should not be on Goodwin’s concern list.  Lets win one of the last 2 and exit the season with some hope.

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1 hour ago, jumbo returns said:

Gawn has been a giant this year, but got beaten a couple of times by a taller, stronger opponent

Hickey gets under his skin, as did the big boy from Freo (name eludes me right now)

Grundy has beaten all his opponents 

No he hasn't.  When has Grundy beaten Gawn this year? I hope you aren't counting Grundy's 38% disposal efficiency game against Gawn on Saturday as "win". Grundy was also obliterated by Soldo when they played the Tigers a couple of weeks ago.

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