Why is Tim Smith even on the list given he played for Casey?

What is the diff between "test" and TBC

Communication is not our club's strong point.

And what is the diff between season and "indefinite"

58 minutes ago, binman said:

I simply don't understand why people (fans, media people and a high proportion of dl posters) can't understand that simple fact.

They understand it, but they reject it as it doesn't align with their feelings (anger, disappointment etc.). It's because of the way our brains have evolved to work. As Daniel Kahneman says, "We are much better storytellers than we are logicians."

On 7/20/2019 at 1:01 PM, Lucifer's Hero said:

 

Other clubs in as bad a predicament as us:  Richmond (key injuries to top 10 players) and St Kilda (key injuries to top 10 players in the preseason who have barely played this year) haven't been playing 'the preseason' or 'the injury' card. 

As I and others have been at pains to point out this is plain wrong and to be honest is a really unhelpful narrative to be pushing as a dees fan. Why? Because it is wrong.

You made that assertion a fee weeks ago and I posted the link of the article from may with the games missed by best 22 through injury ladder. I'm not sure if you read it but it showed we were hit hardest at that stage by a big, big margin. And things have got much worse since then. If that ladder was done now we would be so far ahead of second it is not funny.

And as noted by wrecker45 the injury issue has to be seen in context of our shocking preseason and resulting lack of a strong fitness base (by the by the tigers had a great preseason, as did not coincendally all the teams in the top 5. Saints didn't and have struggled all season. Go figure). Caro should stick to footy politics if she doesn't understand that.

Sure, debate the actuall impact of a poor preseason and injury. But please don't misrepresent how bad both have been for the dees. As I say it is an unhelpful narrative and just feeds all those lazy footy media people who love to reinforce such myths.

Edited July 24, 20195 yr by binman

4 minutes ago, binman said:

As I and others have been at pains to point out this is plain wrong and to be honest is a really unhelpful narrative to be pushing as a dees fan. Why? Because it is wrong.

You made that assertion a fee weeks ago and I posted the link of the article from may with the games missed by best 22 through injury ladder. I'm not sure if you read it but it showed we were hit hardest at that stage by a big, big margin. And things have got much worse since then. If that ladder was done now we would be so far ahead of second it is not funny.

And as noted by wrecker45 the injury issue has to be seen in context of our shocking preseason and resulting lack of a strong fitness base (by the by the tigers had a get rid preseason, as did not coincendally all the teams in the top 5, go figure). Caro should stick to footy politics if she doesn't understand that.

Sure, debate the actuall impact of a poor preseason and injury. But please don't misrepresent how bad both have been for the dees. As I say it is an unhelpful narrative and just feeds all those lazy footy media people who love to reinforce such myths.

Well spoken Binman. There's a narrative run by danny Frawley on the weekend the we have dodged scrutiny. Lazy and unoriginal commentary plain and simple.

I believe we lacked experience in pre season planning following a late sept finish but the club will learn from this. Its been 20 years since the last time.

1 hour ago, Demon17 said:

 

I believe we lacked experience in pre season planning following a late sept finish but the club will learn from this. Its been 20 years since the last time.

Now that is a more interesting discussion and one that is worth exploring. Very hard to do so however in the absence of both inside knowledge and a strong understanding of what best practice is in that space.

For example I wonder if they actually had to do all the surgeries preseason. Could have some waited to say the bye. Could have they done some during the 2018 season or even ended some seasons early? But of course i'm in no position to have an informed opinion on such questions.

That said my gut feeling is they thought they had a shot at the flag last year and, not unreasonably put their eggs in that basket. I think they rolled the dice and hoped they would avoid major injuries and start hitting peak fitness by the bye. Rolled the dice and came up snake eyes.

Edited July 24, 20195 yr by binman

Testing times

Injury LIst: Round 19

Tim Smith (calf) – available

Oscar McDonald (illness) – available

Jack Viney (concussion) – test

Harry Petty (ankle) – test

Jake Melksham (foot) – test

Marty Hore (collarbone) – test

Sam Weideman (calf) – test

Billy Stretch (foot) – test

Tom Sparrow (knee) – 2-3 weeks

Aaron vandenBerg (foot) – TBC

Kade Kolodjashnij (head) – TBC

Tom McDonald (knee) – season

Jeff Garlett (shoulder) – season

Joel Smith (groin) – season

Aaron Nietschke (knee) – season

Guy Walker (shoulder) – Indefinite

1 hour ago, binman said:

As I and others have been at pains to point out this is plain wrong and to be honest is a really unhelpful narrative to be pushing as a dees fan. Why? Because it is wrong.

You made that assertion a fee weeks ago and I posted the link of the article from may with the games missed by best 22 through injury ladder. I'm not sure if you read it but it showed we were hit hardest at that stage by a big, big margin. And things have got much worse since then. If that ladder was done now we would be so far ahead of second it is not funny.

And as noted by wrecker45 the injury issue has to be seen in context of our shocking preseason and resulting lack of a strong fitness base (by the by the tigers had a great preseason, as did not coincendally all the teams in the top 5. Saints didn't and have struggled all season. Go figure). Caro should stick to footy politics if she doesn't understand that.

Sure, debate the actuall impact of a poor preseason and injury. But please don't misrepresent how bad both have been for the dees. As I say it is an unhelpful narrative and just feeds all those lazy footy media people who love to reinforce such myths.

Sorry, but what I posted was not wrong.  I named the players at Richmond and StKilda who had interrupted preseasons and/or injured in the first half of the season. 

The article you posted earlier was iirc the top 20 players.  My comments were based on the top 8-10 players at those clubs.  Many of those I named for Richmond and StKilda still have not returned. 

It would be helpful if you had quoted the whole post.

Whether you accept what I presented is up to you but please do not tell me it was unhelpful. 

I don't have a narrative and don't push any particular view.  On the contrary my posts on all subjects are generally researched and I include facts and information whenever I can locate such.

The point of the post from which you extracted a small part was to say I believe the club needs to stop talking about the preseason and injuries because it just invites unnecessary criticism.  If you are happy for them to keep talking about it fine. 

Edited July 24, 20195 yr by Lucifer's Hero

Sorry LF you were wrong.

7No other club is in the same predicament injury wise as us. Not even close. We have by far the worse run. Top 22 players. Top 10 Top 5. Total number. Timing.

Whatever metric you want to use we have had by far the worse run with injury. 

Edited July 24, 20195 yr by binman

So our injury list is pretty much down to Tom Mcdonald.  he is only key player we are missing.

49 minutes ago, DubDee said:

So our injury list is pretty much down to Tom Mcdonald.  he is only key player we are missing.

Yes, and if we lose to St Kilda this week the narrative moves from injury riddled to just simply no good.

1 hour ago, DubDee said:

So our injury list is pretty much down to Tom Mcdonald.  he is only key player we are missing.

Sorry. How do you figure that?. From our nominal best 22 we have the following players not available though injury: jeffy, Joel Smith, tmac, melk, kk, vdb, hore and weed a test. That's a third of our best 22.

15 minutes ago, binman said:

Sorry. How do you figure that?. From our nominal best 22 we have the following players not available though injury: jeffy, Joel Smith, tmac, melk, kk, vdb, hore and weed a test. That's a third of our best 22.

I meant key injuries. Jeff, kk etc are not best 22 locks. Melk and weed are not injured anymore

All of the players i listed, with the possible exception of kk are best 22 locks and melk is not available i dont think

Just because you come back from the injury list doesn't mean you return in a good way because of lost fitness/touch etc.

Classic example Mitch Hannan. 

So don't expect players like Melkshem to be back to normal this year after missing so much time.

That’s [censored]. I swear Marty Hore got written off for the season when he did his collarbone. 

The club report indicated most on the test list would make their way back via the VFL.  One or two only with a direct path to the firsts...

23 hours ago, Jaded said:

What’s the go with KK? Has been TBC for ages and haven’t been mentioned recently. Is he done? 

This is just a guess, but I suspect concussion symptoms are completely unpredicatble with no way of assessing any likely timeframe. In other words, players have concussion symptoms until they don't. If I'm right, KK is listed as TBC because he's not yet right and there's no way of knowing when he will be. It doesn't have to mean that he's "done"...but until he's over the symptoms we also can't rule out the possibility that he may not play again.

I'm wondering what level of science goes into analysing somebody like Steven May - mature, big bodied defender joins the club after 6 seasons consistent 17-19 games per season (missed more games through suspension than injury) and skin folds around 60.

Minute he arrives at Melbourne - need skin folds at 50 and he's had nothing but leg injuries ever since. 

If we didn't like the player he was, why did we pick him up?

MFC just like my wife - I love you just the way you are. Then we got married and I've suddenly got a bunch of flaws.

How many years did we give KK again? 3? Bizzare.

What’s up with Spargo and Jimmy Hannan -  not named for Casey.

17 minutes ago, TheoX said:

How many years did we give KK again? 3? Bizzare.

KK was a 1yr deal

On 7/24/2019 at 4:10 PM, binman said:

Now that is a more interesting discussion and one that is worth exploring. Very hard to do so however in the absence of both inside knowledge and a strong understanding of what best practice is in that space.

For example I wonder if they actually had to do all the surgeries preseason. Could have some waited to say the bye. Could have they done some during the 2018 season or even ended some seasons early? But of course i'm in no position to have an informed opinion on such questions.

That said my gut feeling is they thought they had a shot at the flag last year and, not unreasonably put their eggs in that basket. I think they rolled the dice and hoped they would avoid major injuries and start hitting peak fitness by the bye. Rolled the dice and came up snake eyes.

I think this is probably right but completely justified. 

We were definitely in with a shot and came home like a steam train until we, well, ran out of steam in the prelim against eventual premiers. 

We knew things would be tough, but the struggle with recovery made it worse than expected. We collected injuries after Christmas and in early rounds (May, Jetta, Lewis, TMac, Melk, Smith, all happened close to our in season) instead of slowly getting healthier. We didn't get match tactic practice coming into the biggest rule changes in decades.

May's injury in combination with the 666 change magnified our defensive issues, and 666 in combination with lack of opportunity for trial/practice, ruined our attack. 

The biggest issue is that a season this bad can be damaging for morale,  belief and cohesion amongst a group.

53 minutes ago, deanox said:

I think this is probably right but completely justified. 

We were definitely in with a shot and came home like a steam train until we, well, ran out of steam in the prelim against eventual premiers. 

We knew things would be tough, but the struggle with recovery made it worse than expected. We collected injuries after Christmas and in early rounds (May, Jetta, Lewis, TMac, Melk, Smith, all happened close to our in season) instead of slowly getting healthier. We didn't get match tactic practice coming into the biggest rule changes in decades.

May's injury in combination with the 666 change magnified our defensive issues, and 666 in combination with lack of opportunity for trial/practice, ruined our attack. 

The biggest issue is that a season this bad can be damaging for morale,  belief and cohesion amongst a group.

I reckon that's where a guy like Lewis is worth is weight in gold, he's been through that at Hawthorn. from what I've heard the morale within the team is still very very good, even when there a incidents like May vs Frost it's done in a respectful way and all end up happy. Hoping that points to a strong culture that will drive us forward next year with a bit better management of injuries, more experience and a little luck (every contender needs a little luck). 

On 7/24/2019 at 5:05 PM, Chelly said:

Testing times

Injury LIst: Round 19

Tim Smith (calf) – available

Oscar McDonald (illness) – available

Jack Viney (concussion) – test

Harry Petty (ankle) – test

Jake Melksham (foot) – test

Marty Hore (collarbone) – test

Sam Weideman (calf) – test

Billy Stretch (foot) – test

Tom Sparrow (knee) – 2-3 weeks

Aaron vandenBerg (foot) – TBC

Kade Kolodjashnij (head) – TBC

Tom McDonald (knee) – season

Jeff Garlett (shoulder) – season

Joel Smith (groin) – season

Aaron Nietschke (knee) – season

Guy Walker (shoulder) – Indefinite

The great 60’s rock group Buffalo Springfield has this song called “Something’s Happening” that opened with the lines-

“There's something happening here
What it is ain't exactly clear”

It was a song about paranoia in the days of the Vietnam War but it comes to mind when I look at what’s happened with this week’s team selections.

The first two players on the injury list are declared available and they go straight into Melbourne’s team for tonight against the Saints (Tim Smith actually played for Casey last week after already recovering from whatever ailed him the previous week). Jack Viney and Harry Petty pass their fitness tests and remain in the team for that game. 

Jake Melksham (after several weeks of wavering from 4-5 to 3-4 miraculously became a “test”), Marty Hore, Sam Weideman and Billy Stretch all pass their tests and are selected for Casey. So does rookie Austin Bradtke who was presumably rested last week.

So just when we have what should be a season low injury list of a mere 8 players, there’s also a season high of up to four “mystery injuries of the week”. 

A day after the injury list is issued, Steven May misses with a hamstring injury. Well, we knew he might have had an issue there because in the game against the Eagles in Alice Springs he went “into the rooms during the third quarter with a tight hamstring but eventually returned”. Another player injured who returns to the ground only to miss at least the following game.

Then there is the strange case of three “outs” from the Casey team - Mitch Hannan, Corey Maynard and Charlie Spargo - none of who were listed as injured. So, if that was really the case, were they rested from a must win game for the Casey Demons (they have to win every remaining game to have a chance of making the finals) when their inclusion would given them a season high of 16 AFL listed players? 

There's something happening here. I just can’t figure it out and nobody’s telling us what it is even if it probably doesn’t matter.

22 minutes ago, Whispering_Jack said:

The great 60’s rock group Buffalo Springfield has this song called “Something’s Happening” that opened with the lines-

“There's something happening here
What it is ain't exactly clear”

It was a song about paranoia in the days of the Vietnam War but it comes to mind when I look at what’s happened with this week’s team selections.

The first two players on the injury list are declared available and they go straight into Melbourne’s team for tonight against the Saints (Tim Smith actually played for Casey last week after already recovering from whatever ailed him the previous week). Jack Viney and Harry Petty pass their fitness tests and remain in the team for that game. 

Jake Melksham (after several weeks of wavering from 4-5 to 3-4 miraculously became a “test”), Marty Hore, Sam Weideman and Billy Stretch all pass their tests and are selected for Casey. So does rookie Austin Bradtke who was presumably rested last week.

So just when we have what should be a season low injury list of a mere 8 players, there’s also a season high of up to four “mystery injuries of the week”. 

A day after the injury list is issued, Steven May misses with a hamstring injury. Well, we knew he might have had an issue there because in the game against the Eagles in Alice Springs he went “into the rooms during the third quarter with a tight hamstring but eventually returned”. Another player injured who returns to the ground only to miss at least the following game.

Then there is the strange case of three “outs” from the Casey team - Mitch Hannan, Corey Maynard and Charlie Spargo - none of who were listed as injured. So, if that was really the case, were they rested from a must win game for the Casey Demons (they have to win every remaining game to have a chance of making the finals) when their inclusion would given them a season high of 16 AFL listed players? 

There's something happening here. I just can’t figure it out and nobody’s telling us what it is even if it probably doesn’t matter.

What is also strange or funny, is the different descriptions given to injuries likely duration. 

With only 5 games to go, some are stated as season, others indefinite and others TBC, when in reality they are all out for the rest of the season. 

If Sparrow for example is out for 2-3 and Casey have 4 games left we can be sure he won’t be brought back for the last game. Walker is indefinite so why not say season.

Not sure why they categorise players injuries in this way.