Preseason Training - Week commencing 11/12/17

[La Dee-vina Comedia 16,909]

14 hours ago, The Lobster Effect said:

Bring on those silky kicking skills!

So who's position will Salem take in the midfield for next year? 

Based on other comments on Demonland in the last week or so, I would have thought it's a straight swap with Jordan Lewis.

[dpositive 1,692]

Great pics. Thanks all.

good to see the muscle development on the longer term players.

[Deemania since 56 6,718]

16 hours ago, hardtack said:

That's a rather unfortunate shot of Baker... or rather, unfortunate positioning of (is it?) Jetta's backside.

When I cleaned my glasses, this 'stomach' looked much better...

[Deemania since 56 6,718]

14 hours ago, DeeSpencer said:

He could easily play half back for the next decade and when he's fully fit - which should be easier as preseasons build up - he'll play very well, and if he isn't he might play poorly. I'd say the same about Brayshaw.

Both of those guys are getting the challenge to get as fit as they can and to make themselves key parts of the midfield rotation - be it on ball, the wing and then time forward or back. 

It might be simpler for us as fans to just lock someone like Salem in on a flank but the greater challenge for him and his development is to see if he can make it as a midfielder and get that fitness in his legs and versatility. 

Salem does come out of the backline very well, quickly and with the ball, his kicking is often masterclass. He also provides a terrific running link for the progress of play into the forwards. Keep him on the backline to mellow from familiarity...

[TeamPlayedFine39 8,510]

5 hours ago, Cards13 said:

Sorry I meant the original comment, Goody won’t pick the best side, just the side he likes that day? 

I think it meant that the "better player" would not necessarily be picked in the best 22, but rather the better role-player.  If player 'A' is individually better than player 'B', but 'B' plays his role better, then he'll bet the one selected.

[Demonland 73,156]

I think he meant that there are no favourites with Goody and he will pick the best team/matchup for the opposition of the day. I'm not sure if this was something that was actually communicated to him or if it was just an opinion. I'm not sure if you can just pick a whole new team from week to week as there are so many factors and moving cogs.

[Satyriconhome 10,879]

8 minutes ago, Demonland said:

I think he meant that there are no favourites with Goody and he will pick the best team/matchup for the opposition of the day. I'm not sure if this was something that was actually communicated to him or if it was just an opinion. I'm not sure if you can just pick a whole new team from week to week as there are so many factors and moving cogs.

A few of the players have communicated that to me, new season clean slate, Goody will pick the 22 fit, in form and playing their role to a high consistent standard 

If we have a consistent 22 over a period of games, it will mean we are playing a good winning brand of footy

[tiers 2,843]

Has there ever been another way to select a team? The coaches know what they expect and, in many cases, it can be different to what we expect.

I am happy to leave selection and roles to Goody. Otherwise, it messes with my mind.

Go dees.

[Satyriconhome 10,879]

4 minutes ago, tiers said:

Has there ever been another way to select a team? The coaches know what they expect and, in many cases, it can be different to what we expect.

I am happy to leave selection and roles to Goody. Otherwise, it messes with my mind.

Go dees.

Unfortunately over the last few years, it was not always the best available, it was what was available 

We now have cover across every line with all 44 players with the opportunity to make a position their own

[Dr. Gonzo 24,304]

4 minutes ago, tiers said:

Has there ever been another way to select a team? The coaches know what they expect and, in many cases, it can be different to what we expect.

I am happy to leave selection and roles to Goody. Otherwise, it messes with my mind.

Go dees.

Plenty of times players have got games on reputation rather than merit. I assume every coach will say that is out the window when they come in and a clean slate will apply but it's not always the case.

[rjay 25,092]

8 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Plenty of times players have got games on reputation rather than merit. I assume every coach will say that is out the window when they come in and a clean slate will apply but it's not always the case.

It's the the first statement from the coaching cliche handbook...

Sorry 'Sat', not trying to be negative but...

I've never met, played under or heard a coach who hasn't used this one.

However human nature says the coach will have favourites no matter what he says. It's not always a bad thing, it's just life.

 

 

[tiers 2,843]

Favourites can mean players who the coach, unlike us, believes can perform to the required standard.

To commit a heresy, there have been times when I thought that Jack Viney was not performing to his best standard. Obviously, the coaches thought otherwise as he has been highly placed in the B&F.

Let's accept that they are looking for something else and that our perceptions are different.

 

 

[Deemania since 56 6,718]

100 days to Round 1. Time to get cracking Dees. Each year that advancing doubt raises its head. This (2018) has got to be the year. Injuries must be overcome before February. Let's do it! 

[sue 9,145]

3 hours ago, rjay said:

It's the the first statement from the coaching cliche handbook...

 

Agree.  You need to look no further than the fact that Captains almost never get dropped even if they are hitting a poor patch.  And the reasons for that filter down to apply to other players as well.

[Cards13 9,117]

7 hours ago, Satyriconhome said:

A few of the players have communicated that to me, new season clean slate, Goody will pick the 22 fit, in form and playing their role to a high consistent standard 

If we have a consistent 22 over a period of games, it will mean we are playing a good winning brand of footy

Great so no free games to developing players. Just pick the best side for each week. Win at all costs.

[Longsufferingnomore 1,647]

Just in case you have missed it, the final training session for the year is Friday 15th. The Club will be putting on the usual BBQ, Coffee and Demon Shop will be available. All profits from the BBQ will go to the Demon Army to help fund the purchases of new "heads". So if you have an hour or two to spare come down and watch the boys train the house down. 

[Skuit 10,031]

On the best-performing selection debate: how can this possibly be determined week to week? JKH for example may be in super-form in the seconds, come in to replace someone not in form in the firsts, and not perform in his promoted role while the demoted player does so in the seconds. Do they swap again? And again and again and again?

Goody, at the start of last year at least, demonstrated that he was willing to give blocks of time to players in the senior team when they weren't at their best. This will inevitably lead to players getting games ahead of others while they are under-performing. Some of it may be more naturally talented players returning from injury and building form, but another form of it is generally termed 'development', and it's a fairly common and important facet of running a semi-successful club.

I'm glad the players have a supposedly clean-slate. The rest of it is lip-service.

 

[Vogon Poetry 2,095]

The best 22  and "in form" and "playing your role" and "fully fit" message is of course bullocks.

The same was said last year but what really happened.

• Hannan plays round one after one practice game the week before for Casey.
• JKH gets rushed in after injury only to play a couple of very poor games
• Joel Smith is selected round one after injury
• Joel Smith gets selected after his injury on the scantest of games and performance at Casey
• Cory Maynard is promoted and then dropped after one game where he was far from our worst
• Viney gets rushed back to the team after surgery. 

Others may be able to think of other examples.  Some of these things worked and some didn't.

Goodwin wants to give hope to everyone in preseason so these things are said. He can't ever say otherwise.  Do you really think that a 90% fit Oliver will be overlooked for a one hundred percent fit Billy Stretch?

Goodwin will pick the team he thinks has the best chance of winning.  He'll weigh up a players form, ability,  injury status and role (amongst other things) for a game and select our best team. 

 

[Dr. Gonzo 24,304]

16 hours ago, Cards13 said:

Great so no free games to developing players. Just pick the best side for each week. Win at all costs.

Which is why I don't expect to see Weideman in the team unless he busts the door down at Casey (or in the practice games).

[Deemania since 56 6,718]

25 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Which is why I don't expect to see Weideman in the team unless he busts the door down at Casey (or in the practice games).

Weideman and Oscar McD - - plenty of Casey room for these two.

[Satyriconhome 10,879]

3 hours ago, Vogon Poetry said:

The best 22  and "in form" and "playing your role" and "fully fit" message is of course bullocks.

The same was said last year but what really happened.

• Hannan plays round one after one practice game the week before for Casey.
• JKH gets rushed in after injury only to play a couple of very poor games
• Joel Smith is selected round one after injury
• Joel Smith gets selected after his injury on the scantest of games and performance at Casey
• Cory Maynard is promoted and then dropped after one game where he was far from our worst
• Viney gets rushed back to the team after surgery. 

Others may be able to think of other examples.  Some of these things worked and some didn't.

Goodwin wants to give hope to everyone in preseason so these things are said. He can't ever say otherwise.  Do you really think that a 90% fit Oliver will be overlooked for a one hundred percent fit Billy Stretch?

Goodwin will pick the team he thinks has the best chance of winning.  He'll weigh up a players form, ability,  injury status and role (amongst other things) for a game and select our best team. 

 

Hannan was selected on an outstanding game at Casey showing everything that Goodwin wanted to see, sending a message to other players

JKH was rewarded for Casey form, by his own admission let himself down when given the chance and was duly dropped

Maynard was unlucky to be dropped but had earned his crack

I expect to see the same from Goodwin this yeat

[The Chazz 4,077]

56 minutes ago, Satyriconhome said:

Hannan was selected on an outstanding game at Casey showing everything that Goodwin wanted to see, sending a message to other players

JKH was rewarded for Casey form, by his own admission let himself down when given the chance and was duly dropped

Maynard was unlucky to be dropped but had earned his crack

I expect to see the same from Goodwin this yeat

They are fair responses to Vogan's points, but I notice you left the Smith recall off.

With that in mind, there is absolutely no reason you can come up with that would justify Smith's recall later in the season.  From memory, he played one return match at Casey, and was pretty ordinary, but was then rushed back in to the seniors.

I don't really know what this whole argument is about.  Reality is, the selection committee will pick 22 likes who they think will win a game.  Its their opinion, so there's always going to be some that disagree.  But it's what they get paid to do, and we can only trust that their decisions are accurate.  They also have access to a lot of data (GPS, etc) that we will never see, and also know more about opposition teams than any of us ever know.

[What 18,810]

2 hours ago, Satyriconhome said:

Hannan was selected on an outstanding game at Casey showing everything that Goodwin wanted to see, sending a message to other players

JKH was rewarded for Casey form, by his own admission let himself down when given the chance and was duly dropped

Maynard was unlucky to be dropped but had earned his crack

I expect to see the same from Goodwin this yeat

 

5 hours ago, Vogon Poetry said:

The best 22  and "in form" and "playing your role" and "fully fit" message is of course bullocks.

The same was said last year but what really happened.

• Hannan plays round one after one practice game the week before for Casey.
• JKH gets rushed in after injury only to play a couple of very poor games
• Joel Smith is selected round one after injury
• Joel Smith gets selected after his injury on the scantest of games and performance at Casey
• Cory Maynard is promoted and then dropped after one game where he was far from our worst
• Viney gets rushed back to the team after surgery. 

Others may be able to think of other examples.  Some of these things worked and some didn't.

Goodwin wants to give hope to everyone in preseason so these things are said. He can't ever say otherwise.  Do you really think that a 90% fit Oliver will be overlooked for a one hundred percent fit Billy Stretch?

Goodwin will pick the team he thinks has the best chance of winning.  He'll weigh up a players form, ability,  injury status and role (amongst other things) for a game and select our best team. 

 

 Sam Weideman, who was not even close to being ready for senior footy,  was played at the start of last season instead of  a more deserving Pedersen, who finally came into the team and gave us a huge lift.

Hopefully Goody is serious about playing the best team on merit, cos he didn't at the start of last season (and at other stages as Vogon stated) and it  cost us a finals spot.

 

Edited December 13, 2017 by Petraccattack

[buck_nekkid 6,046]

7 minutes ago, Petraccattack said:

 

 Sam Weideman, who was not even close to being ready for senior footy,  was played at the start of last season instead of  a more deserving Pedersen, who finally came into the team and gave us a huge lift.

Hopefully Goody is serious about playing the best team on merit, cos he didn't at the start of last season (and at other stages as Vogon stated) and it  cost us a finals spot.

 

I guess it goes through phases - you have to give the kids a taste of the big time at some point.  If they have a strong belief that a player can step up to the level - and over a block of games deliver value to the team whilst getting in key development experience- then that is great.  We have never been in a position like the old Hawthorn teams where guys would play multiple seasons and not get a look in.  We were thin across a number of lines, had a swag of developing players who may have been on the cusp of selection - and with an eye to the future, getting some game time into them so they know what it is like (and what they can go back and work on) - seems like a good idea.

If we are now moving beyond that - we have enough capability and depth on each line, and we are not looking to fast track particular role players - then that is great.  

Saying 'Weiderman was crap and the Pedo came it and was awesome' also reflects a scenario of timing - maybe Pedo was less ready than Sam, but when Pedo was ready he came in???   Pedo had to fight his way in, and perhaps was better for doing so.

Lots of revisionism going on here at the moment.  Suggest we simply take away from all of this that Goody will base his team selection not on 'past glories' but on what he wants and expects - current performance, likelihood to succeed in a role and even 'development' or 'exposure'. 

 

[Tarax Club 3,960]

3 hours ago, Deemania since 56 said:

Weideman and Oscar McD - - plenty of Casey room for these two.

To quote Binman 06/12/2017 on an earlier preseason training thread ... 

"Surprise, surprise stmj is worried tmac's younger brother won't make it. Quelle horreur!

Well i'm not. I can see what the fd can. Like he has been since first selected he is a lock for our starting 22 (yes, yes, i know he was dropped. Once). I have argued the fact he is picked week in week out is proof of his standing. Some - well one - have argued his selection is down to luck and fortituous timing (there are no other options!).

The latter argument is moot this year with lever coming in. There are options for the fd if they think he is not ready.

So when he starts in the side round one and remains in all year, injuries notwithstanding, it will be crystal clear, even to his most trenchant of critics, how highly he is rated by his coach and the fd.

By the happy to bet the above scenario will come to pass."

Objective evidence of a player's performance independent of an observer's emotions or imagination reflects the pre-eminent  role modern sport science has at the pinnacle.  Objective  aces Subjective every time.

 Odds on for Oscar to replace Jack as the  Demonland whipping boy next season