POST MATCH DISCUSSION - Round 4

[Redleg 40,925]

2 hours ago, hank said:

Just to be clear, Melksham will not be dropped, he is the coaches love child.

10 possessions all unopposed, 7 turnovers. Great game.

[KysaiahMessiah 725]

15 hours ago, Watts the matter said:

Could just as easily be 0-4. We are where we deserve to be.

Very disappointed....But at the start of the season most would have had us at 2-2 considering Saints at Etihad and Geelong.  

[No10 461]

48 minutes ago, Is Dom Is Good said:

It seems that Viney is currently being used as a tagger of sorts, at least that is what it looks like.

If that is the case, then that is extremely dumb coaching.

We take a guy who was a weapon last season as a ball winner and turn him into a defensive player?

Dumb,dumb,dumb.

Viney's now never on the burst.  There were times last year when he looked powerful and attacking, A grade potential.

The system of feeding the ball backwards was figured out by Freo in the first qtr, they rushed that release player and turned it over several times.

When Viney handballed backwards in the last minutes to nothing, it was the most obvious display of a system that was so broken and predictable.

[Lord Travis 10,730]

Agreed. And the few times the ball spilt forward in the centre bounces and we got it going forward instead of backwards caught them unaware and lead directly to goals or scoring shots. The coaching staff need to come up with some different plans. They were out coached yesterday. No team should ever concede 8 goals in a row and still not bother to change tactics. Throw a man behind the ball and kill momentum or something at least. The coaches sticking to a very offensive game plan that was clearly not working cost us the game yesterday. Hopefully Goodwin is learning something from these losses and looks at becoming more flexible and developing a plan b.

[picket fence 17,169]

13 hours ago, Wiseblood said:

For a bloke being asked to play a third tall role, yes.  He may not be hitting the scoreboard as much as we would like, but to suggest he needs a run at Casey is a little baffling coming from you jumbo.

Yeah I agree third tall a handful of games some average to dreadful delivery. Time at Casey?? No way known! must be played and will become Stevie Johnson like or even better!

[Demon Dynasty 17,109]

8 minutes ago, Lord Travis said:

Agreed. And the few times the ball spilt forward in the centre bounces and we got it going forward instead of backwards caught them unaware and lead directly to goals or scoring shots. The coaching staff need to come up with some different plans. They were out coached yesterday. No team should ever concede 8 goals in a row and still not bother to change tactics. Throw a man behind the ball and kill momentum or something at least. The coaches sticking to a very offensive game plan that was clearly not working cost us the game yesterday. Hopefully Goodwin is learning something from these losses and looks at becoming more flexible and developing a plan b.

We had a +1 down back early on Lord. They got on top slowly around the stoppages and as Sandi started to find or direct the ball favourably to his targets and/or those targets started reading him better. Fyfe, Hill and McArtney keeping them in it early and then slowly getting on top with Sandi's assistance. They had their +1 around the ball early and most of the time throughout the match which we never seriously addressed. Thought this cost us dearly in the end with the number of clearances they extracted and quickly into their 50. I thought the mountain man did a sterling job under the circumstances though and even took a few nice clunkers and some nice goals.

I actually dont think we were offensive enough as we tended to be happy to try and work our way backwards as you were suggesting far too often (i agree it became very predictable), and we were also too slow from off HB to get the ball into 50 when the opportunity arose, fluffing it around laterally around HB and even across HF at times failing to put Freo under pressure often enough.

Freo did a great job of working their way around our +1 defence and finding a free player somewhere inside 50 or alternatively happy to just plonk it in quickly, taking their chances with the havoc ball on the ground, the ball bouncing luckily their way for the easy pick up and goal on a few occasions.

Our biggest fail though IMO was our failure to handle their heavy press in the 3rd. Very hard to get the ball out under such circumstances for any team but i thought it was badly handled. We were happy to hang off our opponents sitting 60/70 meters from goal, instead of manning up and putting pressure on them and contesting. One on one was the way to go. Back each individual player to beat their direct opponent instead of allowing a panic kick to be easily marked and driven straight back in under extreme heat and havoc for eventual easy goals by a Freo player who has 5/10/15 meters on his opponent time after time.

This, our continual backwards/lateral play (the ball being worked/switched around the back half often unnecessarily) and the failure to flood in the last 2 to 3 minutes were the stand out fails of coaching on the day from where i was sitting. Goody and the boys still have a fair bit of learning left if we are to win/ice close games like this in future. If they keep playing and using strategies like yesterday, expect to be in games for longer, just don't expect to win many of the close ones.

[beelzebub 23,376]

18 hours ago, Moonshadow said:

If we cannot win these games in the first half of the season when our draw is favorable, we are certainly going to get torn a new one in the second half of the season

100% agree

Next game season litmus.

[Macca 16,970]

In the end it came down to 2 evenly matched sides and 1 had to lose

We got smashed in the ruck though (22 - 58) and that was the difference.  With Gawn playing we could have been expected to have at least broken even but given the form he is in, we probably would have had an edge in the ruck.  Spencer toiled manfully but was clearly outpointed.

In turn, we forfeited any advantage we could have had with regards to clearances and more importantly, clean clearances.  Take away that advantage and that brings them (Freo) closer to us.  Same goes for our upcoming games.

Added to that we were without 2 more of our most important players (Hogan & Lewis)  We at least get Hogan back next week but the rucking could remain an issue.  That's not to say we can't win without Gawn - of course we can.  It's just more difficult without him. 

Clean clearances often result in scoring opportunities and we need to figure out how to create clean clearances without Gawn.

[CarnTheDees 52]

17 hours ago, Watts the matter said:

Had forgotten about this one, but Dom Tyson's tackling effort on Balic in the third quarter was a disgrace.

Yep, disgraceful. Tyson's in the team on the weight of numbers of his possessions, but the quality of his touches and his lack of defensive effort are a liability.

[Gator 17,357]

 The coach and game - plan are good. 

Really strong defensive structures, hard around the contest and bold ball movement.  Right now it's not happening for long enough, but it will. 

At times we're moving the footy too quickly from D50 and too slowly from forward of centre.

We'll get the balance right. 

[Demon Dynasty 17,109]

I realise DE% is a very loose stat and very dangerous on its own but noticed we were a fair way off previous weeks and Freo's yesterday (and last week).

Noting the AFL medium term team 'average' is approx 73%.......

• Rnd 1 .... 74.7% (W) Saints 70.4%
• Rnd 2 .... 74.5% (W) Blues 70.3%
• Rnd 3 .... 70.1% (L) Cats 71.1%
• Rnd 4 .... 71.7% (L) Dockers 74.5%

~ Commence rants on how horrible/meaningless stats are

[DemonLad5 1,642]

Just did another ladder predictor because why not

I had us winning some 50/50 games but also had us losing to Carlton and Sydney. We still finished 6th on 13 wins

There was 1 game separating 8th-14th position. It's gonna be a tight race  

[Cheap Seats 3,310]

1 hour ago, Lord Travis said:

Agreed. And the few times the ball spilt forward in the centre bounces and we got it going forward instead of backwards caught them unaware and lead directly to goals or scoring shots. The coaching staff need to come up with some different plans. They were out coached yesterday. No team should ever concede 8 goals in a row and still not bother to change tactics. Throw a man behind the ball and kill momentum or something at least. The coaches sticking to a very offensive game plan that was clearly not working cost us the game yesterday. Hopefully Goodwin is learning something from these losses and looks at becoming more flexible and developing a plan b.

You could also argue LT (to continue with the analysis) that the coaches cost us the game late in the final qtr as well.

When we hit the front with 2 - 3 mins left we continued to play the press instead of dropping men back. I was at the ground and that final McCarthy goal all 3 Freo players were goal side and If I remember correctly I think thery were all 1v1s. When the ball got fired in quickly all 3 Freo players were in great spots to score. T Mac or Frost (I haven't seen the replay sorry) all did exceptional to spoil but there should have been men back to clean up.

The counter argument is that we were being beaten up at the stoppeges (which stats suggest we broke even) but maybe the men were needed around the ball. Sadly Freo were able to break free from the contest and kick well enough to create the opportunity

Look footys a harsh mistress and I don't mind the boys taking the game on and sticking to the game plan, but they didn't impact at the contest and the ball got over the top and McCarthy goaled.

I hate we lost this game, but the reality is you gotta back the boys in. My take is Goodwin is an aggressive coach who backs the boys in. I like it. You have to admit although we are 2 and 2 we've been in every game so far this year, and without suspensions, more leadership and experience we could have been 4 and 0.

Sorry I haven't gone through the whole thread, but Freo did really well to cut out our ball winners yesterday. Jones, Viney etc were cut out of the game brilliantly by Freo

I think the Tigers will trouble us on Monday week, but if I know one things for sure we are in with a massive chance.

 

Edited April 16, 2017 by Unleash Hell

[buck_nekkid 5,861]

5 minutes ago, Unleash Hell said:

You could also argue LT that it cost us the game later as well.

When we hit the front with 2 - 3 mins left we continued to play the press instead of having men back. I was at the ground and that final McCarthy goal all 3 Freo players were goal side and If I remember correctly I think thery were all 1v1s.

Look footys a harsh mistress and I don't mind the boys taking the game on and sticking to the game plan, but they didn't impact at the contest and the ball got over the top and McCarthy goaled.

I hate we lost this game, but the reality is you gotta back the boys in.

There were several occasions where we allowed them to set up goal side with no player back on the line, esp boundary throw ins in their F50.  Really dangerous, especially when we are struggling to win the clearance.

also, Hill absolutely creamed us- he was responsible for so many goals through his delivery inside 50 and goal assists, and we did little if anything to shut him down.  

Letting 7 goals and 30 minutes pass by before anyone did anything is appalling.  Even Frost to the ruck, Watts to half back or rover, and extra man back, Jake to full forward.  Something.  Mix it up a bit!

a young team learning its craft, but you don't train a dog by getting it to do the wrong things.  Why do it with a football team?

[Macca 16,970]

Our best players are collectively well below par and that's one of the reasons we're dropping games ... and we don't have an abundance of top/good players on our list (right now)

Last year we had Jones,  Vince,  Hogan,  Viney,  Gawn,  T-Mac,  Tyson and probably Jetta & Watts.  A top/good player should be expected to play well and/or beat his opponent 4 out of 5 weeks (or at least 3 out of 4)

So ... fast forward to yesterday's game.   Here's that same list of 9 players ...

• Jones (a quiet day)
• Vince (not at his best)  
• Hogan (unavailable) 
• Viney (out of form) 
• Gawn (unavailable)
• T-Mac (average day) 
• Tyson (prolific but still wasteful) 
• Jetta (not at his best) 
• Watts (was quite good)

Of course, we've got others now who are now stepping up to the plate including Oliver,  Hunt,  Salem,  Petracca & ANB but we aren't getting anywhere near the same output from the senior players (and that list now includes Lewis)

It's been an issue for years with regards to our senior players ... we need to get a lot more output (aside from an injured Gawn) and it needs to start next week.

 

Edited April 16, 2017 by Macca

[Demonised 1,354]

13 hours ago, Dante said:

Roos was at the game today sitting just in front and to the left of where I sit, he had a hoodie on appeared to just wanted to be a spectator.

Didnt see him at the end, so I'm not sure when he left, but it was good to see he still has an interest. 

He was there at the end. I saw him heading down the stairs, just after the siren. 

[Cheap Seats 3,310]

1 hour ago, buck_nekkid said:

There were several occasions where we allowed them to set up goal side with no player back on the line, esp boundary throw ins in their F50.  Really dangerous, especially when we are struggling to win the clearance.

also, Hill absolutely creamed us- he was responsible for so many goals through his delivery inside 50 and goal assists, and we did little if anything to shut him down.  

Letting 7 goals and 30 minutes pass by before anyone did anything is appalling.  Even Frost to the ruck, Watts to half back or rover, and extra man back, Jake to full forward.  Something.  Mix it up a bit!

a young team learning its craft, but you don't train a dog by getting it to do the wrong things.  Why do it with a football team?

Yep agree sadly

I am not one for making excuses I am just trying to rationalise it. But is there an element of the coaching staff and the playing group were inexperienced?

But you have to admit for all the f ups they did put themselves in a position to win

[old dee 23,791]

4 hours ago, bandicoot said:

MCC members should be ashamed.

The ball is thrown in on the members side in the last qtr. dees need as much support as possible and the members area is silent.  It's like they are too good to cheer.

Melbourne doesn't need supporters like that. 

50 years of experience has taught them  not expect much bandicoot.

And again their fears were realised.

[old dee 23,791]

1 hour ago, Macca said:

Our best players are collectively well below par and that's one of the reasons we're dropping games ... and we don't have an abundance of top/good players on our list (right now)

Last year we had Jones,  Vince,  Hogan,  Viney,  Gawn,  T-Mac,  Tyson and probably Jetta & Watts.  A top/good player should be expected to play well and/or beat his opponent 4 out of 5 weeks (or at least 3 out of 4)

So ... fast forward to yesterday's game.   Here's that same list of 9 players ...

• Jones (a quiet day)
• Vince (not at his best)  
• Hogan (unavailable) 
• Viney (out of form) 
• Gawn (unavailable)
• T-Mac (average day) 
• Tyson (prolific but still wasteful) 
• Jetta (not at his best) 
• Watts (was quite good)

Of course, we've got others now who are now stepping up to the plate including Oliver,  Hunt,  Salem,  Petracca & ANB but we aren't getting anywhere near the same output from the senior players (and that list now includes Lewis)

It's been an issue for years with regards to our senior players ... we need to get a lot more output (aside from an injured Gawn) and it needs to start next week.

 

Macca do you remember our list just three short years ago?

We have come along way since then.

We are no longer a VFL team making up the numbers.

We are a mid list outfit That has IMO one top class player believe it or not his name is J Watts.

We then have a number of good players but still a lot of average players.

With an ounce of luck we can finish the year around the 8th to 10th mark.

However we are still 2 -3 seasons away from having a list to run deep in September.

WE have no CHF or CHB and we desperately need a match winner.

Freo had 3 yesterday.

However the positive is we have a number of kids who will improve and we have the next couple of draft periods to get a CHB and CHF.

Until then we are going to have a number of days like yesterday.

Not sure my old body can take it but what choice do I have.

 

 

[Jaded No More 68,915]

18 hours ago, dazzledavey36 said:

I thought Frost was quite good.

I definitely feel far more relaxed with him down back then Oscar.

Yeah he's great when he doesn't need to defend. Was nowhere near an opponent all day and his man McCartney ripped us apart. Was horrid and has zero awareness. 

[Jaded No More 68,915]

3 hours ago, Redleg said:

10 possessions all unopposed, 7 turnovers. Great game.

My Essendon friend hasn't stopped laughing since we recruited this guy. He's laughing even louder now. 

Complete liability. 

[Adam The God 30,259]

4 hours ago, Is Dom Is Good said:

It seems that Viney is currently being used as a tagger of sorts, at least that is what it looks like.

If that is the case, then that is extremely dumb coaching.

We take a guy who was a weapon last season as a ball winner and turn him into a defensive player?

Dumb,dumb,dumb.

This might be a result of the niggle that Viney is carrying. I think they might revert to allowing him to attack the game a bit more and play instinctively. 

4 hours ago, Unleash Hell said:

Like this post. Mirrors my thoughts

We can go through the whole game and criticise, whine and nit pick but it really boils down to lack of experience and leadership.

I cbf reading through this whole thread again but has anyone at all acknowledged Freo had a lot more experience on the park and looked pretty damn good moving the ball.

The most worrying thing for me is how easy teams score when they beat our press.

Frost and Hunt played the anchor role in the second half of last season to straighten up our press and give us some cover. Hunt appears to be playing higher now and Frost was a bit lost yesterday. We need someone with that pace to cover if we're going to play such a high line, but also, our backs and mids need to lift their work rate. They don't get back quick enough. 

If you watched Adelaide last night, if they made an error, their backs weren't pushed too high (consistently around the defensive 50m arc) and were able to push their mids back quick to cover any turn overs in the midfield.

A couple of things about Adelaide, and I think given they're the early premiership contenders, it's worth looking at how they operate. Some of their best kickers are half backs and roll through the midfield too. Smith, Laird and Crouch are extremely good users. Those three are given licence to line break, but as I say, all execute extremely well. They also know when to go and when there's cover. But because they rarely turn it over, they aren't caught out going the other way.

In comparison, off our half back line, we probably have Salem, Lewis, Hunt and Jones when he's in form. I'd say Hunt is the weakest kicker, but the best line breaker out of our guys. So far this season, most of these guys have turned it over and allowed the opposition to hurt us going the other way. Adelaide rarely do this, so they've managed to build great trust in their team mates. We're not there yet on that front.

Let's examine Adelaide's last line of defence. Lever and Talia have an extremely good understanding with each other and their half backs and mids. Talia is 25 now and Lever has played almost 40 games. It must be said that Lever is performing ahead of expectations and is a little undersized too as 195cm and 93 kgs KPD, but these two have played two years alongside each other and understand the system Pyke is trying to play. They've had continuity together for some time. This is so important for developing trust and understanding. Both players play to their limitations, often using chip kicks or handball to release their half backs and they move the ball quickly, instinctively.

Our defence is a different story. Tom McDonald plays in a more Alex Rance way, rather than playing within his limitations like Talia and Lever do. Tom tries to take the game on and is prone to the occasional momentum shifting turn over. This means trust is hard to build with him. If I was playing alongside him, I wouldn't trust him not to make a game-changing turnover by foot or by hand. I had believed that Goodwin's take on the game at all costs would mostly pay off, but I just wonder if we need our two KPDs to play within their limitations. That way, our half backs should always know to look for the handball or break hard on the spread to provide an option. Everyone then knows their role and can play it instinctively.

We also haven't defined who that second KPD is. Is it Oscar McDonald or is it Sam Frost? There's an argument to be made that we could play all three, but I don't think you can play three guys who are liabilities with the ball in your back 6. You just don't see this in the top sides, ever. Freo and St Kilda carried Dawson's poor kicking, but then they often had another KPD who played within his limitations. ie. Sam Fisher at the Saints.

Although, it'd be great to think we've got that second KPD on our list, perhaps we'll have to trade one in to fast track the success of our backline and our defensive system? I'm not suggesting we could get him, but Weitering is exactly the sort of player that would compliment Tom perfectly and allow him to play within his limitations a little more. Lever is another, although both of those guys would cost us too much and there's no way Lever would leave Adelaide at this point.

As I mentioned earlier, our half backs are actually okay, but need to become more consistent and ensure they hit targets 9 times out of 10. Hibberd will help. Jetta is the third guy I'd allow to play within his limitations a little bit more, but still ensure he provides some run off half back. 

So the way I see it, without having continuity and a settled key defender partnership, our defence will continue to leak goals it shouldn't. It's also not a defence at this stage that will become a top 4 defence. I like attributes of both Oscar and Frost, but I think by the end of 2017, we have to know whether these guys will partner Tom or whether we have to chase someone else in the short term to get our defence up to scratch. I'd also expect us to adjust our defensive line and play slightly deeper and less aggressively as the season wears on.

Finally, the ball use around the forward arc by Adelaide forwards is world's apart from ours. So it isn't just defence, but improving ball use is certainly a key theme across the ground.

Edited April 16, 2017 by A F

[Macca 16,970]

5 minutes ago, old dee said:

Macca do you remember our list just three short years ago?

We have come along way since then.

We are no longer a VFL team making up the numbers.

We are a mid list outfit That has IMO one top class player believe it or not his name is J Watts.

We then have a number of good players but still a lot of average players.

With an ounce of luck we can finish the year around the 8th to 10th mark.

However we are still 2 -3 seasons away from having a list to run deep in September.

WE have no CHF or CHB and we desperately need a match winner.

Freo had 3 yesterday.

However the positive is we have a number of kids who will improve and we have the next couple of draft periods to get a CHB and CHF.

Until then we are going to have a number of days like yesterday.

Not sure my old body can take it but what choice do I have.

 

 

Yeah, we've come a long way but if our senior players were all playing their part along with the youngsters putting their hands up, we'd be 4 & 0.  I prefer to focus in on the better and more senior players because they set the standards.

The fact is that of the 10 players (I'll include Lewis as well) who we could confidently say we can rely on, only 1 of them did well yesterday.  Of course it's just 1 game but I'm not sure how we can win games with so many players either down on form (Jones, Jetta & T-Mac) out of form (Viney,  Tyson & Vince) injured (Gawn) or suspended (Hogan & Lewis)

We can either wonder how we got so close against Freo or imagine how much we would have won yesterday's game if most of those 10 players were major contributors. 

Of course we've got a much better list but we've still got to actually perform on the day.  We've still got to get it done.  Most of our best players yesterday were the kids and whilst that's a nice blueprint for the future, it's not a great blueprint for right now.

[Gator 17,357]

A goal is obviously massive in a game of footy. 

Freo have been universally lauded for how well they've played and we've been pilloried over a 2 point loss. 

Tomorrow week looms large. 

[What 18,810]

What odds can I get on us beating Richmond, and then losing to Essendon the week after?

I would gladly load up.