POST MATCH DISCUSSION - Round 18

[Satyriconhome 10,880]

2 minutes ago, Biffen said:

Speaking of children.

Sam Mitchell running out on our growing with his Aryan spawn just made me want to heave.

Hope the kids are good at tennis or international smirking and not footy.

congrats on 300 Sammy.

may you have very few more.

become a meth addict, lose everything, become a wanted man and spend the rest of your life in Angola??

You leave the Everton supporter alone

[Biffen 12,947]

3 minutes ago, Satyriconhome said:

You leave the Everton supporter alone

 I like kicking short Poppies.

Ruminating on his success brings out the Geoffrey Dahmer in me.

I can get darker , but this is the wrong thread,time , place etc.

Anyway ,I'm making a dungeon with holography of SM everywhere  in it .Innit?

[Redleg 41,627]

19 minutes ago, big_red_fire_engine said:

Who were or are our veteran leaders to match Riewoldt, Montagna and co?

I can answer the were part, Neita and Garry, probably being the last couple, but currently we have a couple of good players trying hard to lead, who don't seem to be in their class.

[FireInTheBennelly 4,099]

Any word on The Nev?

[Jaded No More 68,974]

It was such a heartbreaking and frustrating loss, but you can't ignore the positives no matter how furious you are about the loss. 

We lack composure. If the tide is turning in a game we go to water, when the game is on the line we lose our nerves. We make bad mistakes at crucial times and we desperately need Salem back, because our kick outs situation is diabolical at times. Wagner kicking out? Really? Not ok. 

We don't have enough leadership to steady the ship and we can't afford to win the stats so comprehensively for 3 quarters and not make the most of it in front of goal! Easy misses, bad umpiring, poor decision making, these things are not permanent.

The talent is there but we need time. 

Edited July 24, 2016 by Jaded

[Guest]

13 hours ago, big_red_fire_engine said:

Who were or are our veteran leaders to match Riewoldt, Montagna and co?

As Redleg stated, some of our last set of great leaders that we had were Neita, Todd, Jimmy and Gaz. I would class Junior as a very good leader but maybe not in the class above.

No one will mistake blokes like Cam Bruce, Brad Miller or Brad Green for William Wallace on a football field but them leaving (in some cases before their time) leaves behind  a cultural legacy in the long term of kids who react in the way that we observed yesterday. 

I recently listened to Russell Greene on Open Mike describe the situation at St. Kilda in the 70's when Cowboy Neale, Brian Mynott and the like all retired or left at once. Essentially it left behind very little support and structure to a bunch of impressionable young men who went down the wrong path. Was it any coincidence that it then took St. Kilda 18 years to recover? 

I don't feel that those blokes do measure up to Roo in a playing sense (few do). However, we lack calmer 30 year old heads who could guide our young charges through those situations and that can not be denied.

Edited July 24, 2016 by Colin B. Flaubert
Don't post after just waking up.

[bing181 9,332]

4 hours ago, old dee said:

... I just get annoyed that a lot of people seem happy that we only lost by a small margin again.

Some of us can talk and chew gum at the same time OD.

[old dee 23,879]

52 minutes ago, bing181 said:

Some of us can talk and chew gum at the same time OD.

That is a neat trick bing . I can manage walking and chewing gum. You are too good for me obviously vey talented.

[bing181 9,332]

47 minutes ago, old dee said:

I can manage walking and chewing gum.

Just not when it comes to footy?

You seem unable to comprehend/acknowledge that anyone could be simultaneously gutted by the loss and still find positives in the performance.

No-one's happy that we lost - (as you claimed).

[old dee 23,879]

2 minutes ago, bing181 said:

Just not when it comes to footy?

You seem unable to comprehend/acknowledge that anyone could be simultaneously gutted by the loss and still find positives in the performance.

No-one's happy that we lost - (as you claimed).

No I understand that bing and you can.

there are some that are happy that we nearly won.

there is a difference. 

But enough of splitting hairs and I think you missed my point about chewing gum.

you said talking and chewing gum. And I acknowledged that I could not do.

it is still a good effort.

[beelzebub 23,383]

Whilst many bask in the luminosity of our great positives I'm bemused how few seem concerned about the inabity to craft a win. This is not about them 'trying' to win, which they obviously were, it's about any capability to make the magic work when required. 

In contrast the team that should have lost by all accounts didn't. They found a way to win. We need to find this ability. 

Edited July 24, 2016 by beelzebub

[Demonsone 2,049]

On 23/07/2016 at 10:18 PM, picket fence said:

Oh yeah home ground advantage, Darwin and Shitihad anyone??

Afl have destroyed home ground advantage for Victorian based clubs & including crap stadium deals & therefore selling home games to help with the bottom line!

[beelzebub 23,383]

7 hours ago, Hogan2014 said:

Afl have destroyed home ground advantage for Victorian based clubs & including crap stadium deals & therefore selling home games to help with the bottom line!

Geelong says hello

[Little Richard 6,265]

13 hours ago, Colin B. Flaubert said:

As Redleg stated, some of our last set of great leaders that we had were Neita, Todd, Jimmy and Gaz. I would class Junior as a very good leader but maybe not in the class above.

No one will mistake blokes like Cam Bruce, Brad Miller or Brad Green for William Wallace on a football field but them leaving (in some cases before their time) leaves behind  a cultural legacy in the long term of kids who react in the way that we observed yesterday. 

I recently listened to Russell Greene on Open Mike describe the situation at St. Kilda in the 70's when Cowboy Neale, Brian Mynott and the like all retired or left at once. Essentially it left behind very little support and structure to a bunch of impressionable young men who went down the wrong path. Was it any coincidence that it then took St. Kilda 18 years to recover? 

I don't feel that those blokes do measure up to Roo in a playing sense (few do). However, we lack calmer 30 year old heads who could guide our young charges through those situations and that can not be denied.

It goes back to that extremely poor period of drafting which has left us with the generation gap that went unfilled. Now we finally have a couple of quality players around that 30 mark in Jones and Vince, but the damage has been done already. It'll take time but the gap is closing.

[old dee 23,879]

23 minutes ago, Django said:

It goes back to that extremely poor period of drafting which has left us with the generation gap that went unfilled. Now we finally have a couple of quality players around that 30 mark in Jones and Vince, but the damage has been done already. It'll take time but the gap is closing.

Jones will be gone in a couple of years and Vince has one year left at best.

Who  then to close the Gap?

Edited July 24, 2016 by old dee

[Little Richard 6,265]

2 minutes ago, old dee said:

Jones will be gone in a couple of years and Vince has one year left at best.

Who  then to close the Gap?

Jones' longevity is phenomenal - he's missed something like 3 games since he was drafted. He'll play until 32/33 I think, which gives him another 4 years approximately. After that, it'll be up to the generation of Jetta, Viney, Watts, Gawn, McDonald to provide that senior leadership. Admittedly it's still a bit of a gap (again, atrocious drafting), but they'll be more numerous and good leaders. Until then we are still in for a bit of a rollercoaster, unless we draft in players to fill that gap, which I can definitely see us doing.

[beelzebub 23,383]

10 minutes ago, old dee said:

Jones will be gone in a couple of years and Vince has one year left at best.

Who  then to close the Gap?

Bernie has 2_3 more 

[P-man 13,366]

We need to extract everything we can out of Jones and Vince because of that void immediately behind them in the 23-27 bracket  It's another reason why Prestia would be a good pick up. He helps plug that gap..

[deanox 10,012]

15 minutes ago, old dee said:

Jones will be gone in a couple of years and Vince has one year left at best.

Who  then to close the Gap?

You've asked the right question. 

 

Since we lost draft picks for the salary cap breach (that's where this started, it's been compounded by por drafting and poor development) we have been in the same position; missing at least one generation on our list profile. 

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/tp-melbourne-demons?year=2016&sby=15

Right now we are missing more than one. 

Jones, Jones, Dawes, Garlett and Vince are the only players from the weekend 27 or older. Nate is solid, Vinces' leadership is up and down, most of demonland don't want Dawes in and Matt Jones and Garlett are hardly leaders for their own reasons. This probably sums up why we lost yesterday, and against St Kilda, and against essendon etc. 

 

In the next age bracket sit Jetta, Watts, Melksham, Gawn, TMac. Young players who this year (Melksham the exception but I've included him because presumably he'll play next year) have stepped up to be mod range leaders and consistent contributors. 

 

Everyone else is 23 or under. 

The downside: this is going to take longer than people acknowledge. Another two years and we'll have an average age resembling AFL norms and a couple of senior guys (listed above) who will drag us over that line. 

The upside: if we stick this out and don't burn down the house looking for short term results we will have a super lay, all young, coming through together.  Potentially setting up a number of years of opportunity. 

 

 

We can bring in older players but if they are old and good they will cost too much. If they are old and average they won't get a game with our crop of youngsters. Hopefully Dunn/Garland/Grimes/Trengove can come good over the next 12 months and force their way back into the team and add that experience.  But that isn't looking likely right now. 

 

[old dee 23,879]

2 minutes ago, deanox said:

You've asked the right question. 

 

Since we lost draft picks for the salary cap breach (that's where this started, it's been compounded by por drafting and poor development) we have been in the same position; missing at least one generation on our list profile. 

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/tp-melbourne-demons?year=2016&sby=15

Right now we are missing more than one. 

Jones, Jones, Dawes, Garlett and Vince are the only players from the weekend 27 or older. Nate is solid, Vinces' leadership is up and down, most of demonland don't want Dawes in and Matt Jones and Garlett are hardly leaders for their own reasons. This probably sums up why we lost yesterday, and against St Kilda, and against essendon etc. 

 

In the next age bracket sit Jetta, Watts, Melksham, Gawn, TMac. Young players who this year (Melksham the exception but I've included him because presumably he'll play next year) have stepped up to be mod range leaders and consistent contributors. 

 

Everyone else is 23 or under. 

The downside: this is going to take longer than people acknowledge. Another two years and we'll have an average age resembling AFL norms and a couple of senior guys (listed above) who will drag us over that line. 

The upside: if we stick this out and don't burn down the house looking for short term results we will have a super lay, all young, coming through together.  Potentially setting up a number of years of opportunity. 

 

 

We can bring in older players but if they are old and good they will cost too much. If they are old and average they won't get a game with our crop of youngsters. Hopefully Dunn/Garland/Grimes/Trengove can come good over the next 12 months and force their way back into the team and add that experience.  But that isn't looking likely right now. 

 

I think it is painfully obvious that the FD thinks that lot are for the high jump deanox we could easily see three of the four  gone at seasons end.

[John Demonic 5,865]

 

39 minutes ago, Django said:

Jones' longevity is phenomenal - he's missed something like 3 games since he was drafted. He'll play until 32/33 I think, which gives him another 4 years approximately. After that, it'll be up to the generation of Jetta, Viney, Watts, Gawn, McDonald to provide that senior leadership. Admittedly it's still a bit of a gap (again, atrocious drafting), but they'll be more numerous and good leaders. Until then we are still in for a bit of a rollercoaster, unless we draft in players to fill that gap, which I can definitely see us doing.

Why don't we again look to recruiting a 28-30 year old player like a Josh Gibson or a midfielder like Matt Rosa last year that went from WCE to GCS and giving them their last few years at our club, as an on-field leader that can help out with these qualities of composure we're lacking, But also giving us a bit more depth. It's hardly going to stretch the budget and to be quite honest, this argument that they'd be taking up a spot is not valid, i think there is one spot or player that doesn't need to be there additionally with who we delist at the end of the year. Lamumba has been sorely missing but i'm not sure he ever had enough maturity in the first place. For all the criticism i had of james kelly being shielded  by a great geelong team, he's done well for Essendon this year and would have provided a year of value this year if we'd drafted him.

An older mature player that have been in a successful finals team or a premiership team would probably be a very wise investment to stabilise our youth. 

Edited July 24, 2016 by johndemons

[Rocknroll 1,005]

23 hours ago, sue said:

Well a lot better than a 10 goal thrashing for a start.  Though to read some of the stuff on here, you'd think it was a bad as that.

Totally agree, Sue, Still it is still a strange feeling. 

[beelzebub 23,383]

23 hours ago, sue said:

Well a lot better than a 10 goal thrashing for a start.  Though to read some of the stuff on here, you'd think it was a bad as that.

Sue, I certainly understand where a many come from in this respect. I dont for one moment suggest we arent better in many respects however we arent in one major one. The ability to win.

In a game where only one team is victor it becomes  akin to the notion you cant be a little bit pregnant or a little bit dead. You are or you're not. You win or you dont.

At the end of the day only one team takes 4 points and thats all that really counts. Now I use the word counts advisedly as it depicts numeracy. Thats what the ladder is about, numbers..Theres no column for the "in between stuff" 

It would have been a very different discussion had we won because it would have been because we DID find a way to win.. We didnt

 

[Chris 2,892]

2 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

Sue, I certainly understand where a many come from in this respect. I dont for one moment suggest we arent better in many respects however we arent in one major one. The ability to win.

In a game where only one team is victor it becomes  akin to the notion you cant be a little bit pregnant or a little bit dead. You are or you're not. You win or you dont.

At the end of the day only one team takes 4 points and thats all that really counts. Now I use the word counts advisedly as it depicts numeracy. Thats what the ladder is about, numbers..Theres no column for the "in between stuff" 

It would have been a very different discussion had we won because it would have been because we DID find a way to win.. We didnt

 

You are right that we don't know how to win the close ones. That really isn't surprising as it is often the last thing you learn as you can't learn it until you have improved enough to be close. 

Learning to win is also one of the hardest things to learn, and one of the best ways to learn it is by trial and error, Saturday was an error, if we learn from it we move on and try again. We may find a lot more errors in how to do it before we find the solution and as it is really a mental thing we as supporters will not really be able to tell what the error was. 

[beelzebub 23,383]

4 minutes ago, Chris said:

You are right that we don't know how to win the close ones. That really isn't surprising as it is often the last thing you learn as you can't learn it until you have improved enough to be close. 

Learning to win is also one of the hardest things to learn, and one of the best ways to learn it is by trial and error, Saturday was an error, if we learn from it we move on and try again. We may find a lot more errors in how to do it before we find the solution and as it is really a mental thing we as supporters will not really be able to tell what the error was. 

I certainly agree it's an "between the ears"  thing. Often it requires players of a certain ilk who switch to overdrive and plainly and simply decide that they will win this game, the others follow suit. We really dont have anyone who will do that yet.

 

addendum :  Viney is very close to it though..In time Oliver also.. They have that temperament. Jones tries but its not really his gig, just my opinion.

Edited July 25, 2016 by beelzebub