The Diamond Defence

[beelzebub 23,370]

Adam,  I hope so 

[P-man 13,366]

1 hour ago, nutbean said:

I understand the reasoning

We are 3rd in hitouts,

We are 1st in clearances and centre clearances.

So when big Maxy is in the form he has been in why wouldn't you set up an offensive plan to capitalise on it ?

I don't see the issue of losing the centre clearance as I haven't seen us burned too badly  - the ball comes into our forward line pretty quickly -  The diamond has pretty effective as it is usually a bit of bomb in an then under some pressure . The issue we have is if we get the ball and turn it over going forward as the half backs have then pushed up way tooo far and we will absolutely get hammered on the counter attack as the ball comes first to a loose on the wing/ half back line and then it is an easy entry into our back 50.

Isn't this a bit of a chicken and egg scenario though, in that we are a high ranking aide in centre clearances partly as a result of this tactic of half backs pushing up towards the centre in order to create the 9 v 7?

I'm not disparaging the Demon Diamond. The name alone has me sold  But this season we have looked as exposed on turnovers as I can recall. The ease with which a developing side like the Saints were able to tear us up does make me a little nervous. I would hope and expect that not all the eggs are being placed in the one basket, although the absence of a Plan B has also been unnerving.

[Tony Tea 2,809]

I'd be staggered if we used the Demon Diamond every bounce. Surely it's only one of a suite of tactics. We'd be stupid to overuse it. Once a quarter ought to do it. Opposition clubs would be all over it, if they already aren't. Sexy tactics are fun, but best use them sparingly to ambush the opposition.

[beelzebub 23,370]

If nothing else youd think there was an option for when Max WASNT taking the bounce 

[Barney Rubble 1,576]

2 hours ago, ArtificialWisdom said:

Ok then that allows the 3 at the back of the diamond to converge on him when the ball gets kicked in. Hitting a man surounded by 3 defenders is difficult and a risk that we are willing to take. Assuming none of the converging defenders can take a grab we are backing in our mids and half backs to get to the fall of the contest and help contest the loose ball then clear it. Its a full team effort and thats why it failed at times on the weekend but you're kidding yourself if you think there weren't diamond successes during the game. I can guarantee the dogs were pointing out flaws in their own zone after that game too. We were not able to exploit them a much as they did us. Doesnt mean our game plan was worse just means they are a better team.

So how do we beat a better team? 

If you haven't a game plan to beat better teams what is the use of playing.

Edited May 18, 2016 by Barney Rubble

[old dee 23,790]

22 minutes ago, Barney Rubble said:

So how do we beat a better team? 

If you haven't a game plan to beat better teams what is the use of playing.

It does not matter what your plan is if you don't have the players to make it work.

Right now we have an improved squad that can take it up to teams in the bottom half of the ladder.

However we are still 5-6 players short of matching the top eight.

We have a lot of wet behind the ears kids who will improve but right now they are not there.

We still need to improve our list over the next couple of years only then will we be capable of consistently beating sides in top eight.

[Barney Rubble 1,576]

14 minutes ago, old dee said:

It does not matter what your plan is if you don't have the players to make it work.

Right now we have an improved squad that can take it up to teams in the bottom half of the ladder.

However we are still 5-6 players short of matching the top eight.

We have a lot of wet behind the ears kids who will improve but right now they are not there.

We still need to improve our list over the next couple of years only then will we be capable of consistently beating sides in top eight.

OD.

I know we are still developing but We get done by Messendrugs and the Saints.

Not what you call top 8 teams.

[Barney Rubble 1,576]

OD.

I wish I had your patience.

It has been 52 years since I attended a Melbourne premiership winning game.

Now that I can see light at the end of a long tunnel.

I want results now. Don't tell me we need to improve the list.

We have a midfield that can operate up there with the best.

I think our defence is our Achilles heel.

Dont tell me he Diamond Defence is the answer.

I hear so much about Netball and Hockey using a similar defence plan 

Have a look at the size of the field they play on and amount of players.

Those sports don't relate to Aussie Rules.

If we are going to persevere with the Diamond we need a whole new backline that can think on their feet.

Our backline is a bunch of robots that can only think one plan at a time.

T McD Dunny and Garland experienced as they are, do not understand the modern game.

[defuture15 899]

9 hours ago, Wrecker45 said:

I'm not sure opposition teams want Jack Watts marking deep in that city end pocket.

The pocket that i refer to as"the jack watts pocket!"

[old dee 23,790]

8 minutes ago, Barney Rubble said:

OD.

I wish I had your patience.

It has been 52 years since I attended a Melbourne premiership winning game.

Now that I can see light at the end of a long tunnel.

I want results now. Don't tell me we need to improve the list.

We have a midfield that can operate up there with the best.

I think our defence is our Achilles heel.

Dont tell me he Diamond Defence is the answer.

I hear so much about Netball and Hockey using a similar defence plan 

Have a look at the size of the field they play on and amount of players.

Those sports don't relate to Aussie Rules.

If we are going to persevere with the Diamond we need a whole new backline that can think on their feet.

Our backline is a bunch of robots that can only think one plan at a time.

T McD Dunny and Garland experienced as they are, do not understand the modern game.

I doubt my patience is any better than yours barney but what choice do we have.

We have to keep remembering that just two years ago we were a VFL talent list.

While we have come a considerable distance list wise since then we are still very young in the development stakes.

Esssendrug is the only bad result in my view. The saints are about our standard and I expect they will finish close to us on the ladder at year end. Even in that game we were only beaten IMO by the Roo, when the game was up for grabs we seemed to just let him roam at will. The closest anyone got to him was 20 metres.

Just hang in there Barney better is to come in 2017 and beyond.

The only thing I can gaurantee you is there will be no miracle rise up the ladder this year.

 

 

[hells bells 2,023]

3 hours ago, AdamFarr said:

I've said it since last year. We'll win 10-12 games this year. 

This will work pretty much every second week, because our team is so wildly inconsistent. We've won 4. I reckon we'll win two in the next month that'll put us to 6 wins after 12 rounds and we'll win at least 4, 5 maybe 6 more in the second part of the year.

I know we get down on ourselves after a loss, but stay the course. Things are finally starting to turn at Melbourne. Hip hip bloody hooray.

I think we need to win the next 2 and beat Collingwood on Queens Birthday to be any shot to winning 12.  That would take us to 7 and 6 at the Bye.  I can't see us getting close to Hawthorn or Sydney.  

The second half of the year is very tough.

The Suns and Blues are the only that I'd be relatively confident of winning at this stage. 

Adelaide, Saints and Freo the next best chances.

WC, Hawks, Cats, Port (in Adelaide) will be very tough.

We have to improve another 5-10% to win 12 IMO.

[Adam The God 30,249]

9 minutes ago, hells bells said:

I think we need to win the next 2 and beat Collingwood on Queens Birthday to be any shot to winning 12.  That would take us to 7 and 6 at the Bye.  I can't see us getting close to Hawthorn or Sydney.  

The second half of the year is very tough.

The Suns and Blues are the only that I'd be relatively confident of winning at this stage. 

Adelaide, Saints and Freo the next best chances.

WC, Hawks, Cats, Port (in Adelaide) will be very tough.

We have to improve another 5-10% to win 12 IMO.

Yep, 12 will be tough, but we're a chance if we can build some momentum. An average side like Carlton are showing that.

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

24 minutes ago, AdamFarr said:

Yep, 12 will be tough, but we're a chance if we can build some momentum. An average side like Carlton are showing that.

 

An average side just won four in a row.

We haven't managed three in a row since the 1800's so I'm not sure why so many on here believe we're a monty to win 10+ for the year.

We've shown we can win against good sides. But we have also shown we can lose to terrible sides and play horrible football.

Our second half of the year is very tough. And games against Carlton won't necessarily be 'locks'.

If we maintain our 'good form' then we should be right.

[beelzebub 23,370]

2 hours ago, Barney Rubble said:

So how do we beat a better team? 

If you haven't a game plan to beat better teams what is the use of playing.

The point missedby many here

 

[DeeZone 9,837]

I'm with you Barney and Old Dee, the Diamond looked OK when Kingy was explaining it and it works well when we win the centre bounce BUT we look hopelessly exposed when we turn it over which we do on a regular basis. I know that we are all impatient for that consistent and reliable team effort that will win us a number of games on the trot but the reality is that we are the most inexperienced team in the league at the moment and we need to continue to get games into these kids, we have the talent to be seriously good in the near future barring injury.  

[Adam The God 30,249]

27 minutes ago, stevethemanjordan said:

An average side just won four in a row.

We haven't managed three in a row since the 1800's so I'm not sure why so many on here believe we're a monty to win 10+ for the year.

We've shown we can win against good sides. But we have also shown we can lose to terrible sides and play horrible football.

Our second half of the year is very tough. And games against Carlton won't necessarily be 'locks'.

If we maintain our 'good form' then we should be right.

Carlton are being propped up by a couple of B grade leaders who have finally started performing and Bolton structures/Clarkson IP. They're an average side, playing out of their skins. Cripps, Weitering and Curnow. After them, who have they got coming through? A couple of rejects from GWS and Adelaide.

Edited May 18, 2016 by AdamFarr

[Coq au vin 755]

Of course it's named after me sweeties!

[The Reverend 1,736]

1 hour ago, old dee said:

I doubt my patience is any better than yours barney but what choice do we have.

We have to keep remembering that just two years ago we were a VFL talent list.

While we have come a considerable distance list wise since then we are still very young in the development stakes.

Esssendrug is the only bad result in my view. The saints are about our standard and I expect they will finish close to us on the ladder at year end. Even in that game we were only beaten IMO by the Roo, when the game was up for grabs we seemed to just let him roam at will. The closest anyone got to him was 20 metres.

Just hang in there Barney better is to come in 2017 and beyond.

The only thing I can gaurantee you is there will be no miracle rise up the ladder this year.

 

 

Optimism tempered with a little pragmatism. You've come a long way OD. I suspect you're right but gee it's exciting to see things getting better. Who would have thought, this time last year that anybody would be talking about anything we do in a positive light. The times, they are a changinig.

 

Go Dees.

 

 

[old dee 23,790]

16 minutes ago, The Reverend said:

Optimism tempered with a little pragmatism. You've come a long way OD. I suspect you're right but gee it's exciting to see things getting better. Who would have thought, this time last year that anybody would be talking about anything we do in a positive light. The times, they are a changinig.

 

Go Dees.

 

 

At the start of this year Rev I thought we would ten games Essendrug were one of those games the saints and dogs were not. 

I still think ten will be won and we have definitely improved but we still have a way to go before finals are a reality .

[Dr. Gonzo 24,215]

5 hours ago, beelzebub said:

Adam,  I hope so 

Have faith mate - what do you think all these coaches do with their time? They're not gonna rest on their laurels. Hell, I haven't even seen any evidence that we start with this structure at every centre bounce but I'll keep an eye out for it the next game I watch. 

Edited May 18, 2016 by Dr. Gonzo

[beelzebub 23,370]

I have wondered Dr 

[Dr. Gonzo 24,215]

1 hour ago, AdamFarr said:

Carlton are being propped up by a couple of B grade leaders who have finally started performing and Bolton structures/Clarkson IP. They're an average side, playing out of their skins. Cripps, Weitering and Curnow. After them, who have they got coming through? A couple of rejects from GWS and Adelaide.

They've also played terrible/out of form teams the last month - Freo, Essendon, Collingwood & Port. A couple of OK wins but I think they'll come back to Earth pretty quickly over the next couple of weeks (North and Geelong).

[Dr. Gonzo 24,215]

3 hours ago, Barney Rubble said:

So how do we beat a better team? 

If you haven't a game plan to beat better teams what is the use of playing.

We are playing the long game. We could do a Terry Wallace and come up with a style to beat the top team in round 6 or 21 but which won't get us to finals let alone win a flag. Should we focus on getting our structures right and trying to get the players to learn to play the game on their terms or panic and fold when things don't go our way and play to the oppositions strengths? We are looking to implement a sustainable system that can get us to finals, GF's and hopefully premierships. Sacrificing that to try to win a game in round 8 that we would be a good chance to lose anyway won't benefit us.

Bottom line is we'd be stupid to not mix things up or have a "plan B / C" but we also need to drill the way we want to play into our players. We are the youngest team in the comp- Petracca Oliver Hunt Wagner haven't even played 5 games. Another chunk haven't made 50 yet including Viney, Gawn and Hogan. We all want success now but the fact we are even trying something innovative is heartening, I'm not sure I've ever seen that from a Demons coach/team, maybe Balme's handball/possession game he brought over from SA but even that wasn't original as other teams had already implemented something similar, notably the Crows.

Edited May 18, 2016 by Dr. Gonzo

[Chook 15,013]

6 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

We are playing the long game. We could do a Terry Wallace and come up with a style to beat the top team in round 6 or 21 but which won't get us to finals let alone win a flag. Should we focus on getting our structures right and trying to get the players to learn to play the game on their terms or panic and fold when things don't go our way and play to the oppositions strengths? We are looking to implement a sustainable system that can get us to finals, GF's and hopefully premierships. Sacrificing that to try to win a game in round 8 that we would be a good chance to lose anyway won't benefit us.

Bottom line is we'd be stupid to not mix things up or have a "plan B / C" but we also need to drill the way we want to play into our players. We are the youngest team in the comp- Petracca Oliver Hunt Wagner haven't even played 5 games. Another chunk haven't made 50 yet including Viney, Gawn and Hogan. We all want success now but the fact we are even trying something innovative is heartening, I'm not sure I've ever seen that from a Demons coach/team, maybe Balme's handball/possession game he brought over from SA but even that wasn't original as other teams had already implemented something similar, notably the Crows.

I just hope one day I see a Melbourne game in which our coach makes a tactical move that wins us that game, even though it might not be 100% in line with our predetermined gameplan. That would be nice.

[deanox 9,915]

3 hours ago, Barney Rubble said:

OD.

I wish I had your patience.

It has been 52 years since I attended a Melbourne premiership winning game.

Now that I can see light at the end of a long tunnel.

I want results now. Don't tell me we need to improve the list.

We have a midfield that can operate up there with the best.

I think our defence is our Achilles heel.

Dont tell me he Diamond Defence is the answer.

I hear so much about Netball and Hockey using a similar defence plan 

Have a look at the size of the field they play on and amount of players.

Those sports don't relate to Aussie Rules.

If we are going to persevere with the Diamond we need a whole new backline that can think on their feet.

Our backline is a bunch of robots that can only think one plan at a time.

T McD Dunny and Garland experienced as they are, do not understand the modern game.

Yep the coaches must be wrong. Let's do what worked 52 years ago.