How upset will you be if we finish bottom

[sue 9,000]

i think you will find of that if any team has that sort of record under the current drafting equalisation rules that it would be largely self inflicted, kinda par for the course.

the afl (rightly) should be more interested in fixing uncompetitive teams (quickly as possible) than playing blame games. For the benefit of the competition not necessarily any individual club.

agree the pp seems dead, so they should kill it off

but......while it still exists no harm in trying it on. other clubs would.

yiou of all people realise our list needs massive injections and turnover

Massive injections!? Which thread am I reading?

[old dee 23,482]

Not sure macca that some people haven't answered the question they wanted put

Not the actually question or that they actually voted

[beelzebub 23,193]

Not in my mind. I don't care because I have seen enough improvement and competitiveness to realise we could have won more games with a little more talent and luck. Whether 16 or 18 or whatever, the position on the ladder is related to how many 'flukes' other bottom teams have pulled off etc.

If I was sure that a wooden spoon would somehow affect the club in the future, then I might be more concerned, but since I'm not sure of that, I don't really care. Some see that as a weak supporter/bad attitude/all that is wrong with the supporters, I see it as realism.

succint +1

[Macca 16,603]

Not sure macca that some people haven't answered the question they wanted put

Not the actually question or that they actually voted

Ok, I see posters who voted 8-10 as "caring" and those who voted 1-3 as "not caring" (in terms of being upset about finishing last)

The people who "care" seem to be generally fairly passionate in their views about not finishing last. A number of those who "don't care" seem to be having 2 bob each way. That's an educated guess of course, I can't offer definitive proof (unless more posters want to be more transparent on their motives)

What I'm saying is that it seems that many who don't care have an ulterior motive - the no.1 draft pick on offer. Not all, of course, but there's a number of people who have already admitted as such.

How could any supporter group have a figure as high as 43% with a "no care" attitude to finishing last? It doesn't make sense unless there's another "hidden" reason. Are we that brow-beaten that the worst prize on offer in sport is in some cases a goal?

What do you honestly think, old dee? Please don't answer with a "I don't care"

[Roost It 1,434]

Finish bottom

Push Frawley out

Put pick 1 on the table and see what pops up

Go hard for 2 experienced onballers

Take pick 2 and pick a ready made mid

Coax Clark out of retirement

Trust in Roos

[beelzebub 23,193]

I think for a great number here there is some automatic association to 'caring' about a particular finishing position and giving a damn about the clubs progress and its future.

I tell you that they need not be so tied together. I look at it in the J curve scenario. We needed to dip even further than we were last year because we needed to reinvent our game. Its taking a while but we're getting there. We can now only progress with more of the right style of players on the list. This too will come as will their development . We can all see these elements in play , we can all see effective advancement its just that the one most important stat , that being the final score doesnt reflect this as yet.

So just because i ont really give a rats about finishing last doesnt mean I wouldnt possibly like to see a win or two but is such endeavours are unfulfilled and we slip to last I still dont bloody care as I know we're heading in the right direction.

Whether youre pruning roses or having an op to fix a little niggle chances are you will be a lot worse off immediately after taking steps to rectify things than had you done nothing. Thats us. Were taking steps but we're not seeing it on the scoreboard yet. it will come.

So for mine this is a Straw construct..last place and not giving a damn about the club.

I dont care if we finish last because in reality it means sfa as to where and what we do NEXT season and the one after it etc.

But for those that are insistent upon wrist slitting and name calling please continue

[bing181 8,899]

Don't care, as in, it's irrelevant.

Doubling (at least) our number of wins, improving our percentage, and being "in" most games - including games against top sides - speaks more about where we're at and the progress we're making, than a number on a ladder.

I was hoping for 6-8 wins, but with what happened to Clark, Hogan, Trengove, Dawes (missed quite a few games early on plus the pre-season), Garland and Jamar (ditto) plus Cross, that has turned out to be unrealistic.

If half of that little list had managed a more or less full season with full health/fitness, I doubt very much that this thread would exist.

Edited July 28, 2014 by bing181

[Macca 16,603]

I think for a great number here there is some automatic association to 'caring' about a particular finishing position and giving a damn about the clubs progress and its future.

I tell you that they need not be so tied together. I look at it in the J curve scenario. We needed to dip even further than we were last year because we needed to reinvent our game. Its taking a while but we're getting there. We can now only progress with more of the right style of players on the list. This too will come as will their development . We can all see these elements in play , we can all see effective advancement its just that the one most important stat , that being the final score doesnt reflect this as yet.

So just because i ont really give a rats about finishing last doesnt mean I wouldnt possibly like to see a win or two but is such endeavours are unfulfilled and we slip to last I still dont bloody care as I know we're heading in the right direction.

Whether youre pruning roses or having an op to fix a little niggle chances are you will be a lot worse off immediately after taking steps to rectify things than had you done nothing. Thats us. Were taking steps but we're not seeing it on the scoreboard yet. it will come.

So for mine this is a Straw construct..last place and not giving a damn about the club.

I dont care if we finish last because in reality it means sfa as to where and what we do NEXT season and the one after it etc.

But for those that are insistent upon wrist slitting and name calling please continue

I agree with a lot of what you've said and ... I like your "blue sky" thinking, BB but ... essentially, you and I are looking at this from different platforms. I reckon that's the case with nearly all conflicting views. The conflict often comes because we're not on the same page to begin with.

Your summary about where the club is currently at is hard to argue with and I'm not arguing those points. We just have different views on the repercussions of finishing last. We're going to find out one way or the other (soon enough)

I made the very same argument when the discussion about whether we should keep Neeld on or not was about. My argument then (and I stand by it) was that all sorts of areas of the club can be adversely affected if the misery continued.

Getting Roos and PJ on board has lifted a lot of those areas but we don't need a setback that a spoon could possibly bring. Don't get me wrong, it's not the end of the world but ... instead of a huge growth spurt that a club might have with a 'relatively' successful season, we may be looking at a bit of incremental growth only with a bottom of the ladder finish. Of course, it's debatable what a relatively successful season is or isn't but a strong finish to the year for us (3 wins?) wouldn't hurt (considering where we've come from)

I'm specifically talking about off field growth and revenues as I believe that on the field, we're in excellent hands with Roos and co. Bringing in some established talent can be effected too if a club is not looked upon with favourable eyes.

It's my belief that we need to trade for some genuine A grade talent and even though a better placed draft pick might get you that talent, I firmly believe that far more importantly, we need to be an attractive destination. 18th from 18 ain't attractive. Picks 3, 4 or 5 might be just as valuable as pick 1 to another club.

Edited July 28, 2014 by Macca

[beelzebub 23,193]

Macca...i hear you. My stance I suppose in regards to the areas you opine...off field etc . i still dont think any of that will be greatly affected.

Maybe if someone seriously targeted a meteoric climb up the ladder this year followed by Silver glory next then they are bound to be despondent but in all reality where we finished was anyones guess. where we're heading is I believe what many will base their faith upon. As such members will still be members , ex members in limbo may or may not rejoin but thats totally upon < i feel , where and the how of our progress going forward. I dont think said progress is necessarily linked to ladder position. many here can see the improvement but acknowledge its not shown as to our position on the ladder. I would think many a person can also see this..

Roos just made public his faith in the club ( I suspect its been there for a while..lol ) and so I would think no such impediment would exist for anyone coming to us for any reason; player, admin, FD or supporter

Macca I really dont think it matters....maybe just me

[Go the Biff 3,360]

I think for a great number here there is some automatic association to 'caring' about a particular finishing position and giving a damn about the clubs progress and its future.

I tell you that they need not be so tied together. I look at it in the J curve scenario. We needed to dip even further than we were last year because we needed to reinvent our game. Its taking a while but we're getting there. We can now only progress with more of the right style of players on the list. This too will come as will their development . We can all see these elements in play , we can all see effective advancement its just that the one most important stat , that being the final score doesnt reflect this as yet.

So just because i ont really give a rats about finishing last doesnt mean I wouldnt possibly like to see a win or two but is such endeavours are unfulfilled and we slip to last I still dont bloody care as I know we're heading in the right direction.

Whether youre pruning roses or having an op to fix a little niggle chances are you will be a lot worse off immediately after taking steps to rectify things than had you done nothing. Thats us. Were taking steps but we're not seeing it on the scoreboard yet. it will come.

So for mine this is a Straw construct..last place and not giving a damn about the club.

I dont care if we finish last because in reality it means sfa as to where and what we do NEXT season and the one after it etc.

But for those that are insistent upon wrist slitting and name calling please continue

That's about it for me. I've always looked at this year as a righting of the ship. I don't think the win/loss column in 2014 has a lot to do with setting the club up for success in the next few years and beyond. I can see we've improved with my own eyes & I believe there remains improvement in the current group. Plus there will be additions. While I'd like more wins, it's not how I'm measuring the season

That said I'd be mightly [censored] off were we to be in the same situation in 12 months

And we won't come last - despite pulling one from their clackers against Freo, the Saints are pretty terrible

[beelzebub 23,193]

That's about it for me. I've always looked at this year as a righting of the ship. I don't think the win/loss column in 2014 has a lot to do with setting the club up for success in the next few years and beyond. I can see we've improved with my own eyes & I believe there remains improvement in the current group. Plus there will be additions. While I'd like more wins, it's not how I'm measuring the season

That said I'd be mightly [censored] off were we to be in the same situation in 12 months

And we won't come last - despite pulling one from their clackers against Freo, the Saints are pretty terrible

Now that would be a very different thing...That I would care about greatly

[Macca 16,603]

Macca...i hear you. My stance I suppose in regards to the areas you opine...off field etc . i still dont think any of that will be greatly affected.

Maybe if someone seriously targeted a meteoric climb up the ladder this year followed by Silver glory next then they are bound to be despondent but in all reality where we finished was anyones guess. where we're heading is I believe what many will base their faith upon. As such members will still be members , ex members in limbo may or may not rejoin but thats totally upon < i feel , where and the how of our progress going forward. I dont think said progress is necessarily linked to ladder position. many here can see the improvement but acknowledge its not shown as to our position on the ladder. I would think many a person can also see this..

Roos just made public his faith in the club ( I suspect its been there for a while..lol ) and so I would think no such impediment would exist for anyone coming to us for any reason; player, admin, FD or supporter

Macca I really dont think it matters....maybe just me

You might have noticed that I've focused on finishing the season off with more wins (3 would be nice and 4 would be great)

That would give us a 7/15 season or an 8/14 season and almost certainly would rule us out from finishing last. Sounds and looks a damn side better than a 17 or 18 loss season.

I know it's a bit of a longshot but you can bet that the players and coaching staff firmly believe that we can win all our remaining games - and so they should too. That's the business they're in - winning.

[beelzebub 23,193]

you know...if we could could knock off North that would be something to go out on...otherwise

[old dee 23,482]

Ok, I see posters who voted 8-10 as "caring" and those who voted 1-3 as "not caring" (in terms of being upset about finishing last)

The people who "care" seem to be generally fairly passionate in their views about not finishing last. A number of those who "don't care" seem to be having 2 bob each way. That's an educated guess of course, I can't offer definitive proof (unless more posters want to be more transparent on their motives)

What I'm saying is that it seems that many who don't care have an ulterior motive - the no.1 draft pick on offer. Not all, of course, but there's a number of people who have already admitted as such.

How could any supporter group have a figure as high as 43% with a "no care" attitude to finishing last? It doesn't make sense unless there's another "hidden" reason. Are we that brow-beaten that the worst prize on offer in sport is in some cases a goal?

What do you honestly think, old dee? Please don't answer with a "I don't care"

wow Macca you are fired up about this one.

I don't care.

Sorry I could not resist only joking.

I think the answer to your question is yes we are brow-beaten.

I always want to win every game possible.

When we were tanking it used to annoy the crap out of me and I believe a large part of the player problems post 2010 were the result of that attitude.

However the result of the eight years of poor performance and numerous beltings is that you become immune to defeat.

It is I believe a human reaction to escape the depression of constant loss.

You turn off.

So when someone asks the question in this thread people say it does not mattered because they have been down this track so many times that they know life goes on wether we win or lose.

A large number of 1 - 3 group IMO are just practising self defence.

In 2016 when we are winning as many as losing the answer to a similar question would be very different I think.

[Deecisive 1,709]

I think that when people say they dont care they mean finishing last is not the end of the world. The team has obviously improved significantly from last years by virtually ever measure, except ladder position. We beat Essendon, Carlton, Richmond, Adelaide... and we gave lots more including top 4 teams a little bit of trouble. That is success to me. the positiion on the ladder is irrelevant, would you rather play like we did last year and finish 17th instead of playing like we have and finish 18th.

[old dee 23,482]

I think that when people say they dont care they mean finishing last is not the end of the world. The team has obviously improved significantly from last years by virtually ever measure, except ladder position. We beat Essendon, Carlton, Richmond, Adelaide... and we gave lots more including top 4 teams a little bit of trouble. That is success to me. the positiion on the ladder is irrelevant, would you rather play like we did last year and finish 17th instead of playing like we have and finish 18th.

Sophie's choice

[Biffen 12,805]

Blowin' chunks.

[beelzebub 23,193]

would you rather play like we did last year and finish 17th instead of playing like we have and finish 18th.

I like this. Out position probably doesnt accurately reflect our endeavours but DOES represent where we are. Thats the reality.

I kinda think as a team we're like the bloke with a bit of a crook back. Finds it hard to get going and for things to come easy. Get him down to the Chiro/Chinese Accupunture-massage bloke and .....click click clunk ...it all falls back into place and we some effort you find youre running around like no tomorrow.

we need straightening out and straightening up.. We'll get there now

[Bitter but optimistic 22,057]

Sophie's choice

Jesus OD that is depressing.

[Macca 16,603]

you know...if we could could knock off North that would be something to go out on...otherwise

We (arguably) played our best game for the year against Port last week. Let's face it, if we'd have won the game, we'd almost certainly be calling it our best win for the year.

So, I say we improve on that form and blow Brisbane off the park ... the players must be absolutely sick and tired of losing so they might double their efforts. Why not?

That would make it 5 wins with 3 winnable games to come (the Hawks game will be tough)

7 wins or maybe even 8 wins with another 4 or 5 games that we "couda" won is not a bad return (all things considered) Most of us would have taken that at the start of the season.

I'm still hoping that it happens.

[beelzebub 23,193]

Jesus OD that is depressing.

disturbing more than depressing ...lol

[Vipercrunch 2,820]

Macca...i hear you. My stance I suppose in regards to the areas you opine...off field etc . i still dont think any of that will be greatly affected.

Maybe if someone seriously targeted a meteoric climb up the ladder this year followed by Silver glory next then they are bound to be despondent but in all reality where we finished was anyones guess. where we're heading is I believe what many will base their faith upon. As such members will still be members , ex members in limbo may or may not rejoin but thats totally upon < i feel , where and the how of our progress going forward. I dont think said progress is necessarily linked to ladder position. many here can see the improvement but acknowledge its not shown as to our position on the ladder. I would think many a person can also see this..

Roos just made public his faith in the club ( I suspect its been there for a while..lol ) and so I would think no such impediment would exist for anyone coming to us for any reason; player, admin, FD or supporter

Macca I really dont think it matters....maybe just me

Not just you.

Final ladder position is irrelevant as long as we don't totally go AWOL over the last 5 weeks. The runs are on the board for prospective members, sponsors and recruits to see.

[old dee 23,482]

Jesus OD that is depressing.

that is what he was offering bb.

Both the choices stnk IMO.

Prefer not to choose

[daisycutter 29,296]

that is what he was offering bb.

Both the choices stnk IMO.

Prefer not to choose

oh come on od, no-one is asking if you're going to top yourself

surely you'd be pizzed off if we finish last, eh?

[old dee 23,482]

oh come on od, no-one is asking if you're going to top yourself

surely you'd be pizzed off if we finish last, eh?

I sure as hell dont want to finish last dc

As well it is only a game mate not that serious, well for me anyway.