POST MATCH DISCUSSION

[wmth 69]

Reluctant to criticize Roos' game plan (at all), but while acknowledging the lack of forwards, why is it that no one is actually playing forward??

Pedo and Fitz are no doubt useless, but too often they just weren't there (seemingly under instruction). Reminded of me - respectfully - the Bailey days where we ran into space but simply had no options presenting (Beamer's long bombs to no one, anyone?)

Must be infuriating for Jones, Tyon etc to look up and have to stop and prop. The only times we looked remotely decent was when there was at least a contest and a presence.

Secondly, we would be at least 50% better if we ran like an AFL side. Token efforts all day and no separation from opponents. Skills were poor, but they were made poorer by very few options. Sprint FFS! The intensity was completely unacceptable. To watch Nat Fyfe and then Watts (similar position, build etc) is embarrassing. Watts is more skilful, but the attack and want is miles apart. That was a basketball game from Watts, and he got away with against St Kilda. Broken record, but he need to be told. So much potential .

[nutbean 8,838]

It's very easy to say 'injuries are excuses', and a lot of the time it's not enough to point to who's out.

But when your three key forwards, your two best ruckmen, a promising young midfielder and your best defender are all out, and you're coming from the low base we are, it's simply an irrefutable truth that our injuries are destroying us.

Nometheless, we have too many senior players who, even with Roos, aren't good enough, and we have too many playera who have been on our list for years but have gone nowhere. How long has Spencer been on our list? Grimes is a 7th year player but still can't kick. Fitzpatrick is into, what, his fourth season? Fifth?

I had a look at Hawthorns injuries and they have some guns out too - the difference being that our talent pool is so thin that we cannot cover one good player being out let alone 4-5 - we just need our best availables out on the ground or we will see what we saw yesterday.

[Pennant St Dee 13,304]

I think Roos post game presser said it all. Maybe for him the reality has absolutely dawned. I was previously of the view that perhaps our list wasn't as bad as the previous few years suggested and by getting a coach that the players respected and by whom a chance was given to these guys to enjoy their footy again, the upside would be greater than the downs this year. Seems I was categorically wrong. OK, we're only 2 rounds in, but you would have to be the ultimate optimist to think we can turn this around in a matter of weeks. Tall forwards or not.

What worries me the most is I cannot think of any precedent where a side is so consistently inept and gets whacked so consistently. Maybe not since the Fitzroy days or for that matter, ourselves in the 70's and early 80's.

Sorry for the bleakness of my post, but I feel pretty gutted this morning. Just waiting for my mates' usual condescending emails to hit my inbox this Monday morning

+ 1 absolutley feeling really down, taking all my strength to not just throw the hands up and say this is no good for me. Usually after calming down after a nights sleep I am cooler, but today I feel much worse and I am absolutley livid. I would give anything at the moment to hot our form of 2010 at least I would be happy for 1 third of the season

[Ted Lasso 19,549]

Reckon Roosy would be having doubts yet?

[Biffen 12,946]

Did not see the game but the commentators made the point that we look like under 10s.

I am going to watch it tonight with some sedatives.

Can't see us winning games with small players like Bail,Matt Jones,Byrnes ,Clitsby etc picked .

I realise Clitsby did not play but small players will not make it unless they have the Viney ferocity in them .

Size counts.

Apologies for not even seeing the game yet but What's the point of picking slow unskilled midgets.

At least Tappy can iron someone out.

At least Blease is lightning .

At least Gawn has heart.

Fmd- what do these shorties offer?

[KingDingAling 3,758]

Reckon Roosy would be having doubts yet?

I don't think he'll be having doubts.

But I think he'll forget about his own legacy and now start to get his hands dirty.

This loss will be good for Roos, he'll thrive.

Roos knows exactly what it takes. He won't tolerate players running on the spot all year.

Trengove should be on marked time, he wouldn't get a game at my local club.

Too many MFC players are sub standard, we have too many blokes on our list who cannot play basic football.

[DemonOX 8,800]

Supporting Melbourne is like hitting your head against a brick wall.

U know it hurts but u keep doing it.

I feel really down like a lot of us but I just can't stop supporting my team.

It's driving me farting nuts.

[drdrake 3,187]

We just have to many players that can't execute skills. You read people ripping into Trengove for his speed, Jack on a number of times made space worked 100m on a lead for the kick to be behind him or a mile in front.

Our team can't kick, we have 10 players yesterday that don't have the disposal levels required at this level. It starts from the back 6, Dunn is the only one that can kick, in fact he is by far our best kick in our back half. Frawley, MacDonald, Grimes, Terlich, M Jones. We can't set up play from our back half because we don't have the quality back there to bring the footy out well.

The team is not slow by foot, if we line up our players V's the Eagles for a 50m race it would be even, we are slow because we refuse to move the ball quickly, we don't play on, we take a mark run straight back behind our mark miss the best option because our brains are to slow, usually miss the next best option because our brains question our ability and then we switch. We switch first kick is good, then we stop go back miss the second kick and we are opened up.

If you switch the footy you have to have players working to receive on the far wing, get the switch and move it quick. The Eagles did exactly what St Kilda did, just sat back across half back and waiting for us to turn it over then scored on the counter attack.

Once again the Eagles didn't need to run both ways they just ran forward in numbers our guys worked hard back and forth all game.

GWS will get us by 10 goals this week, Carlton by 10 the week after and we will have 4000 people at a home game against Gold Coast on Easter Sunday. I hope the AFL has the cheque book ready we are going to need another massive hand out

[DemonOX 8,800]

I don't think he'll be having doubts.

But I think he'll forget about his own legacy and now start to get his hands dirty.

This loss will be good for Roos, he'll thrive.

Roos knows exactly what it takes. He won't tolerate players running on the spot all year.

Trengove should be on marked time, he wouldn't get a game at my local club.

Too many MFC players are sub standard, we have too many blokes on our list who cannot play basic football.

Have a listen to his pressor the penny has dropped with Roos and how hard this is going to be.

Players are going to be nervous cause he will not put up with players who do not do the non negotiables.

Expect changes this wk

[rjay 25,086]

We just have to many players that can't execute skills. You read people ripping into Trengove for his speed, Jack on a number of times made space worked 100m on a lead for the kick to be behind him or a mile in front.

Our team can't kick, we have 10 players yesterday that don't have the disposal levels required at this level. It starts from the back 6, Dunn is the only one that can kick, in fact he is by far our best kick in our back half. Frawley, MacDonald, Grimes, Terlich, M Jones. We can't set up play from our back half because we don't have the quality back there to bring the footy out well.

The team is not slow by foot, if we line up our players V's the Eagles for a 50m race it would be even, we are slow because we refuse to move the ball quickly, we don't play on, we take a mark run straight back behind our mark miss the best option because our brains are to slow, usually miss the next best option because our brains question our ability and then we switch. We switch first kick is good, then we stop go back miss the second kick and we are opened up.

If you switch the footy you have to have players working to receive on the far wing, get the switch and move it quick. The Eagles did exactly what St Kilda did, just sat back across half back and waiting for us to turn it over then scored on the counter attack.

Once again the Eagles didn't need to run both ways they just ran forward in numbers our guys worked hard back and forth all game.

GWS will get us by 10 goals this week, Carlton by 10 the week after and we will have 4000 people at a home game against Gold Coast on Easter Sunday. I hope the AFL has the cheque book ready we are going to need another massive hand out

According to many on here who are defending our players the same argument comes up. Trengove, Pedersen, Toumpas etc ran hard, made space.....

I know it's part of the game but to many are out there making space and not enough are doing the hard work over the ball or tackling.

...but let's face it so many are not up to it and as far as AFL goes are a waste of space.

[Guest]

I think Roosy will also counterbalance that with making sure we don't blood kids before they are ready. If we are expecting 8 outs next week, then I think we are being delusional. Sure, changes will be made but don't expect to see Christian Salem or Max King getting a guernsey yet.

We need to remember the lessons of the past before we move into the future.

[Damo 3,374]

Roos says he has non-negotiables.

Fact is the players can "Opt out" as they might believe some talls have.

[DemonOX 8,800]

We just have to many players that can't execute skills. You read people ripping into Trengove for his speed, Jack on a number of times made space worked 100m on a lead for the kick to be behind him or a mile in front.

Our team can't kick, we have 10 players yesterday that don't have the disposal levels required at this level. It starts from the back 6, Dunn is the only one that can kick, in fact he is by far our best kick in our back half. Frawley, MacDonald, Grimes, Terlich, M Jones. We can't set up play from our back half because we don't have the quality back there to bring the footy out well.

The team is not slow by foot, if we line up our players V's the Eagles for a 50m race it would be even, we are slow because we refuse to move the ball quickly, we don't play on, we take a mark run straight back behind our mark miss the best option because our brains are to slow, usually miss the next best option because our brains question our ability and then we switch. We switch first kick is good, then we stop go back miss the second kick and we are opened up.

If you switch the footy you have to have players working to receive on the far wing, get the switch and move it quick. The Eagles did exactly what St Kilda did, just sat back across half back and waiting for us to turn it over then scored on the counter attack.

Once again the Eagles didn't need to run both ways they just ran forward in numbers our guys worked hard back and forth all game.

GWS will get us by 10 goals this week, Carlton by 10 the week after and we will have 4000 people at a home game against Gold Coast on Easter Sunday. I hope the AFL has the cheque book ready we are going to need another massive hand out

In regards to turnovers the eagles scored something like 11.4.

U ain't ever gunna win when that happens.

[Fat Tony 5,262]

• Tyson looks to be a good AFL player.

Cross showed why he was so loved by Bulldog fans.

Dunn is a very good player.

The Spencer experiment should have been terminated when he dropped the ball against North in 2009. We desperately need to recruit an athletic ruckman and I would be chasing Blicavs from Geelong and even consider taking Stefan Martin back.

Watts was poor. Soft in the contest, dropped easy marks and missed targets. He was the most disappointing thing out of yesterday.

Tom McDonald lacks the skill to be an AFL player and should be traded (even if Frawley walks).

Fitz and Howe were disappointing, but the slow pace of our forward movement is the real problem in our game, not the quality of our KPFs. We need to be more willing to kick to a contest early in our attacking phase and use the corridor more. Roos has failed to get us playing with enough flair at the moment. He needs to be aiming to kick 13 goals (even if the opposition kick 25).

Watching Nic Nat, Shuey and Darling dominate is sickening.

Garland should be the sub next week.

[KingDingAling 3,758]

Going off yesterdays effort. If we don't beat GWS this week.

We could be looking down the barrel of a win-less year.

We do not play St Kilda again, we only play GC once.

And we have GWS later on in the year.

I don't see how we can possibly beat any side, when we have no forward line.

[Undeeterred 3,124]

Reluctant to criticize Roos' game plan (at all), but while acknowledging the lack of forwards, why is it that no one is actually playing forward??

Pedo and Fitz are no doubt useless, but too often they just weren't there (seemingly under instruction). Reminded of me - respectfully - the Bailey days where we ran into space but simply had no options presenting (Beamer's long bombs to no one, anyone?)

Must be infuriating for Jones, Tyon etc to look up and have to stop and prop. The only times we looked remotely decent was when there was at least a contest and a presence.

Secondly, we would be at least 50% better if we ran like an AFL side. Token efforts all day and no separation from opponents. Skills were poor, but they were made poorer by very few options. Sprint FFS! The intensity was completely unacceptable. To watch Nat Fyfe and then Watts (similar position, build etc) is embarrassing. Watts is more skilful, but the attack and want is miles apart. That was a basketball game from Watts, and he got away with against St Kilda. Broken record, but he need to be told. So much potential .

Just want to point out for the record the idiocy of equating basketball with lack of intensity. Come up with a decent analogy if you want to hang it on Watts for jogging around without any direction.

Some of you heroes couldn't hold a candle to most of the basketballers I know.

[KingDingAling 3,758]

Roos says he has non-negotiables.

Fact is the players can "Opt out" as they might believe some talls have.

Yeah, I think that is a concern as well.

[DeeZee 7,445]

It looks like they are thinking too much about this stupid new game plan.

We finally get players that can win the ball in the middle and we bloody kick it backwards.

There is no natural instinct to run and take the game on....Roos is not the messiah, his game plan is dated,and only works if you have a super skillfull team....our boys are so worried about making a mistake they are turning it over, its written all over their faces.

[Deez 298]

Has anyone done any statistical analysis of where our last 7 seasons rank in terms of how bad we are relative to the history of AFL. I reckon we would have to be up there. Even with the soft wins against GWS and GC when they started out.

Hopefully we win some games this year, but no one could honestly be thinking we could be winning a lot! So add this season in the analysis too!

i have a good idea but i don't really feel like going there.

[Choko 493]

It's getting harder and harder to see a way out for us. You look at the way Port turned it around and try to take hope from that, because it's the closest thing we have to an analogy. You look at Richmond and their stability at management/football department level, and think that if things continue to be managed well by Jackson, Roos and Bartlett, we can turn the ship. But unlike Port, Richmond and even GC, GWS and the dogs, we clearly have a list of scarred, reclusive, mentally shot players. i.e. we have so little to work with. If there was some clear hope on the horizon, we could maybe be some prospect of picking up some marquee players for overs, but even that is unlikely.

I don't think Roos could have done more to bolster our midfield over the off season. However, even with him and even taking account our injuries, it is extremely difficult to see, or sell, hope. I think we supporters need to hear from CEO or President about why we should keep coming to games. I am mad keen, and I'm very close to done. I took both kids for the first time yesterday. It was depressing.

[drdrake 3,187]

According to many on here who are defending our players the same argument comes up. Trengove, Pedersen, Toumpas etc ran hard, made space.....

I know it's part of the game but to many are out there making space and not enough are doing the hard work over the ball or tackling.

...but let's face it so many are not up to it and as far as AFL goes are a waste of space.

We have plenty of players getting the footy, we are to slow with our ball movement. Watch Watts, Trengove and Toumpas they are often running to the spot for the next kick, but the guy with the footy is either to slow to see them, refuses to kick to them or wants the safe option when we have someone 50m in the clear because they can't kick to advantage and are scared to miss the target.

We need players that can pin point kick over 35m to have the ability to kick to advantage when the person you are kicking to only has a small break. Don't kick to far in front, don't kick behind them kick to the exact spot it needs to be.

Our players think to much, strip it back, play on, fast ball movement and first option, they have to stop second guessing themselves.

[Deez 298]

I feel for watts. he starts to build in the mid field and roos decides he has to go forward. I know he is tall and quick, but the kid can't play that position - that much has been demonstrated time after timer after time... it frustrates me seeing him there. its just crushing any hope he has to develop a skill set in any area of the ground, he's been swapped around so much, what hope has he had?

[Deez 298]

• Tyson looks to be a good AFL player.
• Cross showed why he was so loved by Bulldog fans.
• Dunn is a very good player.
• The Spencer experiment should have been terminated when he dropped the ball against North in 2009. We desperately need to recruit an athletic ruckman and I would be chasing Blicavs from Geelong and even consider taking Stefan Martin back.
• Watts was poor. Soft in the contest, dropped easy marks and missed targets. He was the most disappointing thing out of yesterday.
• Tom McDonald lacks the skill to be an AFL player and should be traded (even if Frawley walks).
• Fitz and Howe were disappointing, but the slow pace of our forward movement is the real problem in our game, not the quality of our KPFs. We need to be more willing to kick to a contest early in our attacking phase and use the corridor more. Roos has failed to get us playing with enough flair at the moment. He needs to be aiming to kick 13 goals (even if the opposition kick 25).
• Watching Nic Nat, Shuey and Darling dominate is sickening.
• Garland should be the sub next week.

wouldn't it have been nice to know that the wrestling ruck rules were going to be hit hard, all we have is 2 strong ruck men that can't run and have limited ball skills, a bean pole and an 18yo. and i guess fitzy - hasn't really continued on his efforts of last season.

Having said that i do think gawn will be good, spencer still has potential, it might be a working progress for him to work out what works for him - trial and error unfortunately.

[wmth 69]

Just want to point out for the record the idiocy of equating basketball with lack of intensity. Come up with a decent analogy if you want to hang it on Watts for jogging around without any direction.

Some of you heroes couldn't hold a candle to most of the basketballers I know.

Righto. Sorry to offend the basketballer in the house. While basketball is not football, my point was is that he lacked any modicum of ferociousness and appeared to be playing a non-contact sport.

However, as you rightly point out, perhaps at the very least he could embody a spirited basketball player when he pulls on the jumper. At the moment, his intensity is not fit for a field or a court.

[wmth 69]

I feel for watts. he starts to build in the mid field and roos decides he has to go forward. I know he is tall and quick, but the kid can't play that position - that much has been demonstrated time after timer after time... it frustrates me seeing him there. its just crushing any hope he has to develop a skill set in any area of the ground, he's been swapped around so much, what hope has he had?

The guy's a professional footballer. Versatility, at that height, should be his strength. I don't feel sorry for him at all. Him, with many others, should be dragging us out of this heap we're in. Some hardness would go a long way to changing both his fortunes and perceptions.

He failed to impose himself on a single contest. Just not good enough and he doesn't need any pity.