POST MATCH DISCUSSION

[DeeZee 7,428]

Spencer cant take a mark to save himself, and thats not good enough, no matter how many hit outs he had.

At least Gawn can mark the ball and go forward and kick goals.

[pitmaster 3,561]

All you whinging bastards need to harden up. Yes we lost but surely we played a better brand of footy than last year. It was easy to see we had no forward structure. Yes it would have been nice to win but I still have faith Roosy has us in the right direction. I believe we will be a better side in the 2nd half of the season. Remember it's not easy adapting to a new game style.

ditto

[jazza 1,323]

i thought we were actually playing better then the saints... In the last we had Byrnes playing as our Key forward...lol... Watching the ball rebounding out of our forward line, after all the hard work the boys put in to get it there.. Was the most disappointing part... Match day injuries killed us...

yeah agree with that.

for the first time in years our clearance handball from packs went more than 3 metres,and it looked very good.

swicth over play seemed much better and we hardly got into the lock down phase.

looking forward i thought our play was better than its ever been{6 years}and the PR style showed out.

doesnt help when mac,dunn,fitz all cop injuries and we also are covering,garland,hogan,jamar and mitch.

really good effort and terlich didnt turn over as many possies as he normally does.

midfield clearance from packs,very good.

learning to give the pill to the better deliverers will be another step.

all in all,i was rapt driving home with good thoughts about the expected style the coach has bought to the club.

looking forward to a good year.i wouldnt knock,pederson and dunn ,they filled holes and thats what listed players are meant to do,its just unfortunate that we had so many better listed players out.

[rjay 25,002]

Paul Roos himself has said it a number of times, an 18-team competition will always have an 18th-placed team. If we show substantial improvement but still finish last, then so be it. It's an even competition this year. Personally I see us winning a handful of games, we will have days that we kick straight and have forward targets. But to have ever though we were anything but bottom 4 this year was wishful thinking.

On last nights showing and the improvement of other teams we will be lucky to win a game all season, however we may have some forwards coming back which should make a difference.

All you whinging bastards need to harden up. Yes we lost but surely we played a better brand of footy than last year. It was easy to see we had no forward structure. Yes it would have been nice to win but I still have faith Roosy has us in the right direction. I believe we will be a better side in the 2nd half of the season. Remember it's not easy adapting to a new game style.

It didn't seem to be a problem for Port last season. It's the same excuse we used with Neeld and it doesn't wash with me.

I said all week not to play Cam Pederson. But many on here dismissed that, saying they like the contest he brings. Far out, that was one of the most deplorable performances I've seen from a Melbourne player. Gave us absolutely nothing all night, missed two set shots and somehow contrived to miss a goal from 5m out on the run. I don't care if he's our only tall - he can't play forward.

I reckon the worst thing he did among many was when he passed the ball to Tommy Mc, had plenty of time to look forward, a few good options and put the ball right out in front of him to run on to. Dumb footy, really dumb....Tommy Mc was playing forward because he couldn't run. His opponent jogged past him and took the ball with ease and another forward move was done.

It wasn't that we had no forwards. It was that they hardly moved and when they did either got in each others way or were missed with the kick. Our ability to let StKilda's VFL starting midfield get easy take aways from the centre was deplorable. We couldn't hit the side of the barn forward of centre yet one of our best two disposing mids in Vince played all of the first half in the forward line. Jack Grimes tries hard but is a liability with ball in hand. We played very stationary, predictable football.

Watts was excellent as were Dunn and Jones. Those bagging Toumpas need to watch the game and get over wishing for Wines. He works his arse off to make position, is smart with ball in hand and will improve significantly over the course of the season.

The key will be to see the learnings from the game, changes made and what they improve next week.

According to Roos Watts was really good with ball in hand. That's code for he didn't do enough when he didn't have the ball.

I know a lot of others liked Toumpas' game but my personal opinion is he needs to learn to win contested ball or he is a liability. I would have him spending more time a Casey until he does. He is brushed off the ball way to easily.

[rjay 25,002]

If Roos and Jackson think they can come in and get this ship on track in a couple of years then they need to think again. We need a commitment from them for at least the next 3.

[Mr Steve 3,820]

Go figure Paul Roos can't pick a side and was out coached by a first game coach. Really guys go watch the game again.

I was disappointed in the loss but saw more then enough good signs. We just have to get a fit Dews and Hogan out on the ground.

Edited March 23, 2014 by Mr Steve

[Ted Lasso 19,526]

Go figure Paul Roos can't pick a side and was out coached by a first game coach. Really guys go watch the game again.

Out played, if we missed just the easy shots we would have beaten them by 5 goals and 100 plus touches, i hate that we lost but i am thrilled with the difference since last year, the effort for four quarters was very solid.

[Coup Cooper 610]

I'm still trying to shake my anger re Frawley. He spilled a hand pass streaming into goal just as we looked to get the run on. Thought it was pivotal.

Angry at Frawley? Grimes overcooked the handpass! He rocketed it to him from a metre away... When only soft hands were needed..

Edited March 22, 2014 by Laces Out

[beelzebub 23,380]

Were probably still 10-12 players away from a really competitive team.

Weve had only one draft and one preseason under Roos. Itll be another before we see real improvements. ..to the next level.

A simple reality is some on the list just arent quite as good or valuable as many would have us believe.

Another year of frustration I sense before some real surgery is performed.

Last night was an opportunity missed....not many others this year I fear now.

No forwards...no scoreboard impact. Its that simple an equation id ssy.

go dees

[jackaub 1,402]

From where I was sitting he got to the ball but could never get 10cm on his opponent - still slow as last year.

Most of his disposals where useless - handballs whilst getting tackled

couldnt agree more Trengove contributes nothing he has zero acceleration

[DeeSpencer 25,767]

Go figure Paul Roos can't pick a side and was out coached by a first game coach. Really guys go watch the game again.

How was he out coached? The saints played a pretty simple game plan - drop a loose man back and see if a VFL level forward line can kick goals against an extra defender. The result was obvious. The saints got enough fast break goals from dumb Melbourne mistakes which come through inexperience with a game plan and no confidence in the forwards.

And yeah Richardson is a first game (well actually second he coached Port in a game last year) but he's been around footy as long as Roos.

Besides a bad mistake of leaving McDonald on Riewoldt after half time Roos did what he told us he'd do. Create a game style that revolves around sharing and keeping the ball and play hard and sound defensive footy.

[Dr. Gonzo 24,235]

If we couldn't beat that St Kilda side, where are wins going to come from?

I think our possession style is going to limit the damage at times, but I am finding myself disproportionately deflated and unhappy about last night. Maybe because it's round 1..... but I think the reason is that I can't see a way out for years. These players are totally screwed between the ears. They just think they are losers. Then they are. Vicious cycle. Roos is going to have to be so ridiculously good - and again, the buy in from the players to his message is surely at least particlly tempered by the fact he has committed to no more than 3 years.... Depressing.

It actually felt palpable in the crowd. After the first 15-20 minutes the air seemed to go out of the side and while they battled on they didn't seem to have the zest they did in the first 10 minutes.

[jackaub 1,402]

I was siitng level 1 behind the interchange and Jones had a few expletives towards some of his Team mates when he was coming off one was directed to Frawley the other to Grimes after easy turnovers I feel sorry for him he works so hard gets beaten up every contest and then watches the ball given up so easily terrible to watch

Edited March 22, 2014 by jackaub

[Dr. Gonzo 24,235]

This is a bit radical but even though he isn't ready, I would try and find a way to play King up forward until we can get some of the key forwards back. I know he would have to be uplifted but with Riley as well as Clark out maybe there is a way.

Everyone seems to say don't kill the young guys, but several young guys killed us last night and one of our old guys, who cant' even kick a goal with no pressure from 5 metres out and who is essentially hopeless nearly killed me.

I agree with the sentiment but in reality he will get rag-dolled and not sure he has the nous to play forward?

[Dr. Gonzo 24,235]

How was he out coached? The saints played a pretty simple game plan - drop a loose man back and see if a VFL level forward line can kick goals against an extra defender. The result was obvious. The saints got enough fast break goals from dumb Melbourne mistakes which come through inexperience with a game plan and no confidence in the forwards.

And yeah Richardson is a first game (well actually second he coached Port in a game last year) but he's been around footy as long as Roos.

Besides a bad mistake of leaving McDonald on Riewoldt after half time Roos did what he told us he'd do. Create a game style that revolves around sharing and keeping the ball and play hard and sound defensive footy.

The loose man killed us - if we went man on man forward we would have at least been able to create 50/50 contests down there instead of kicking it to a loose defender or an outnumbered Melbourne player. This meant we had to work the ball forward through run and handball leading to too many shots from the 50 and beyond which missed narrowly and cost us multiple goals and the match. Roos should have manned up Roberton after the 2nd quarter, the fact he didn't left me scratching my head.

[Lil_red_fire_engine 11,223]

I know a lot of others liked Toumpas' game but my personal opinion is he needs to learn to win contested ball or he is a liability. I would have him spending more time a Casey until he does. He is brushed off the ball way to easily.

It is typical for a predominantly outside 2nd year player to take time to get the right inside/outside balance but I don't think this needs to be learnt at Casey. He played high half forward/wing and is there for the transition on the outside and not to win the inside ball. 30% of his ball last night was contested which is about the right split for a player in his role. He in most cases beat his man when it was one on one or evened the contest. He is one of the few who actually runs to the right spaces and can use the ball so I don't see how putting him to Casey achieves much at all as long he goes when its his turn.

[jazza 1,323]

I was siitng level 1 behind the interchange and Jones had a few expletives towards some of his Team mates when he was coming off one was directed to Frawley the other to Grimes after easy turnovers I feel sorry for him he works so hard gets beaten up every contest and then watches the ball given up so easily terrible to watch

it was worse watching the sprays.good leaders dont do those things.

some people made the comment the spring went out of our step after awhile,i agree with this ,but in the first game of the year a lot of teams seem to run out of gas early,it is common and most coaches/players cant explain why.

im very confident of what the new team ethos is and will support it to get enough wins to keep us all happy.

dont be first round sourpusses,things are getting better.

Edited March 22, 2014 by jazza

[Lil_red_fire_engine 11,223]

I was siitng level 1 behind the interchange and Jones had a few expletives towards some of his Team mates when he was coming off one was directed to Frawley the other to Grimes after easy turnovers I feel sorry for him he works so hard gets beaten up every contest and then watches the ball given up so easily terrible to watch

Not the best leadership if true particularly when he is prone to similar disposal issues at times.

[Jara 1,153]

Geez, You have to admire the perspicacity and fairness of the Afl in not giving us a priority pick after our triumphs of last year, don't you?

And pleeeze, don't anybody say we would have mucked it up. You don't know that.

[Carrot Top 947]

This is a cut and paste of what I wrote on BF;

To be honest I thought we were out coached tonight and that along with our inaccuracy for goal cost us the win.

For starters leaving an injured McDonald on Riewoldt was a poor move but even when he was off and Frawley was on Riewoldt Frawley didn't do much better really.

Secondly the Saints had a loose man dropped back in their defensive 50 all night (generally Roberton) and often had two guys dropped back there for instance when there was a stoppage along the centreline. This meant that even when we won the clearance we ended up bombing to an unmanned Saints player, an outnumbered Melbourne player or going back into traffic with handballs and getting ourselves into trouble while being forced backwards. We lacked the get out of jail option having Dawes or Hogan (I've written off Clark for now) up there would have provided and after Fitzpatrick went off we had no one we could bomb long to and know they would create a contest and crash the packs. We should have manned up the loose player behind the ball so that at least we would have been able to kick long to a 2-2 or 3-3 contest when under pressure coming out of a clearance.

The fact that we didn't fed into the second problem which was our inaccuracy. Because the Saints had the loose man set up and we had no key forwards who could crash through them we had to try and work the ball forward through handball or chip kicks around the flanks meaning a lot of our shots at goal were coming from around or just outside the 50. We had a number of near misses including a couple of Vince posters early which really cost us.

I was disappointed we didn't dominate the centre more considering the Saints outs but considering Spencer was our lone ruckman and the difficulty our kids had finding targets up forward it's probably understandable. The Saints were able to pressure us around the contest due to our lack of options and when we did kick long Roberton or the loose Saints player marked and switched quickly to an open Saints forward line as all our players had been running forward and were caught out of position. The Saints forward line was open and Riewoldt, Stanley etc were able to run into space and really hurt us on the rebound.

Overall it was disappointing but I'll wait and see how we go once we can get Dawes, Hogan, Gawn/Jamar and Viney back to straighten us up and give us some more assistance at the ruck contests before slitting my wrists. It's going to be another long year but if we can mimic what the Dogs did last year (poor first half of the season but come home strong with some positive signs for 2015) I think that's the best we can hope for at this stage. I'm not looking forward to next week vs West Coast but I'll be there...

I see nothing in that post that says we were out coached. Badly hurt by lack of big, mobile men, and by having a second string forward line that didn't demand the respect of the loose man and thus made them a floater able to do what they wanted. We are missing a massive amount of big men, and two more were taken out of the game through injury reasonably early on.

We weren't outcoached. We were badly hurt by key losses to big players over the last 6 or so weeks. The spine is as important as the mids. You can't have one with a dysfunctional other, and almost our entire first choice spine is hurt right now. If you win at CHF and break even at CHB you'll win a lot of games - we had no hope of both before the game, and either shortly into it.

[Dr. Gonzo 24,235]

it was worse watching the sprays.good leaders dont do those things.

some people made the comment the spring went out of our step after awhile,i agree with this ,but in the first game of the year a lot of teams seem to run out of gas early,it is common and most coaches/players cant explain why.

im very confident of what the new team ethos is and will support it to get enough wins to keep us all happy.

dont be first round sourpusses,things are getting better.

I appreciate the positivity but we lost to the worst team (bar us) in the league without their 3 starting mids. I don't know where you think our wins will come from.

[Dr. Gonzo 24,235]

I see nothing in that post that says we were out coached. Badly hurt by lack of big, mobile men, and by having a second string forward line that didn't demand the respect of the loose man and thus made them a floater able to do what they wanted. We are missing a massive amount of big men, and two more were taken out of the game through injury reasonably early on.

We weren't outcoached. We were badly hurt by key losses to big players over the last 6 or so weeks. The spine is as important as the mids. You can't have one with a dysfunctional other, and almost our entire first choice spine is hurt right now. If you win at CHF and break even at CHB you'll win a lot of games - we had no hope of both before the game, and either shortly into it.

Keeping an injured player on the best player on the ground and failing to man up the loose man is where I think we were outcoached.

[SaberFang 7,151]

Not the best leadership if true particularly when he is prone to similar disposal issues at times.

Except he's been putting up with this [censored] for 7 years. I wouldn't have a bar of it either. The atrocious turnovers are the reason we lost.

Grimes is not up to scratch and the quicker he's dropped from the side the quicker he might shape up and learn to play basic footy.

[Elusive Tunbridge 795]

Maybe I was the only one watching Georgiou. He kept Maistre pretty quiet in the first half, playing as a lock-down defender, and played that role competently all night, until he went off either cramped or injured in the last. He didn't (can't?) kick long, but he always found space and hit his targets reliably. Barring injury, he'll play every game.

[Webber 10,476]

How was he out coached? The saints played a pretty simple game plan - drop a loose man back and see if a VFL level forward line can kick goals against an extra defender. The result was obvious. The saints got enough fast break goals from dumb Melbourne mistakes which come through inexperience with a game plan and no confidence in the forwards.

And yeah Richardson is a first game (well actually second he coached Port in a game last year) but he's been around footy as long as Roos.

Besides a bad mistake of leaving McDonald on Riewoldt after half time Roos did what he told us he'd do. Create a game style that revolves around sharing and keeping the ball and play hard and sound defensive footy.

Totally on the money. Our possession game style is leagues ahead of last year, when we just couldn't get our hands on it. They will get better at it, it's just the simple reality of repetition. The turnovers will lessen, the confidence will grow, and when we have a forward or two to kick to, we'll see the picture start to come into focus.

Thinking that leaving McDonald on Riewoldt was a mistake is classic hindsight wisdom. He had done the job on him in the first half ( got the corkies in the FIRST quarter, so it was logical to stay with him. Riewoldt killed the game in 5 minutes in the third.

There were lots of personnel positives from last night also.....Watts, Toumpas, Tyson......

Having said all that, and that we WILL be much more competitive than last year, I'm not sure where we're gonna get a win from!

Gawn and Blease tore it up at Casey yesterday, so they're automatic ins it seems.