MELBOURNE TEAM FOR ROUND 1, 2014

[old55 21,499]

Clisby Frawley Garland

Grimes McDonald Toumpas

Michie Jones Watts

Vince Clark Trengove

Hogan Dawes Kent

Foll: Gawn Viney Tyson

Int: Howe Pick #9 Cross

Sub: Blease

Emerg: McKenzie Fitzpatrick M Jones

I like your posting Adam, but if Clark isn't rucking that line-up who is?

[titan_uranus 22,721]

B: Garland McDonald Clisby

HB: Toumpas Frawley Terlich

C: Vince Trengove Tyson

HF: Howe Dawes Watts

F: Kent Clark Hogan

R: Gawn N Jones Viney

I: Grimes Fitzpatrick Michie

S: M Jones

Clisby is our best small defender - should undoubtedly be promoted of the rookie list and start Round 1. Terlich starts in Round 1, but needs to have improved his disposal and decision-making, or he won't hold his spot. Toumpas runs off the other half-back. I think Toumpas and Terlich provide us with better run and attack off half-back than Grimes, who should be playing midfield.

I have Fitzpatrick in the side because I don't think Clark as a ruck is good for the side, nor do I think it's sustainable. However, this presents an issue - I'm not sure Dawes, Hogan, Clark and Fitzpatrick can all stay in the side, but at the same time I don't think we can ruck Clark. That's going to be an interesting plotline through 2014. Gawn gets the start over Jamar.

M Jones starts as the sub, but Pick 9 (and/or Cross, if we get him) could change the structure of the midfield, and M Jones is the first player out. Beats Blease to the role due to Blease not being good enough.

[Fat Tony 4,478]

Hopefully Gawn comes on significantly over preseason and develops a tank and/or Jamar returns to top form. But at the moment I think our best 22 has Clark in the ruck with Fitzpatrick as back up.

Our biggest weaknesses besides the midfield, which is still poor, are a lock down small defender and a small forward.

[P-man 13,276]

Don't think you can make a blanket statement like that. If it's a player that is ready to go, then they play.

Somehow i think he'll cope ok.....

Size is a factor but it isn't everything. If he comes in early and retains his spot each week, Ollie Wines style, no-one will be happier than me. But that is rare, and it shouldn't be forced. Making him earn his spot and allowing his body to adjust to the rigours of senior football is in both his and our best interests.

Anyhow, let's draft him first, then we can discuss it again. I have faith in those who will be developing the next generation of talent to make the right calls and getting the balance right.

[Biffen 12,397]

Throwing kids to the wolves hasn't done us any favours. Whoever it is we pick I'd like to see developed properly, which means not being in the 22 from round 1, especially seeing as we have bolstered the midfield with some bigger bodies.

I'm a believer in sink or swim.

Whilst Trengove has suffered from lofty expectations as has Watts ,they will come out of it as better players.

Gysberts swam,then sunk,which was odd but then we have had a few like that before.

Blease,Evans,Strauss and Gawn have missed so much footy through injury that they will have another year to show their stuff.

Frawley matched it from the start and never makes excuses .

Having said all that ,i am sure Roos will play the fittest,best team available regardless of name or reputation ,age or experience.

[Curry & Beer 5,444]

I love how your head is so far up your own backside you won't even oblige a polite enquiry about a typo, which you did in fact make.

yep, it is the reader's fault for not making the adjustment for his stuff up, spare us please

[Curry & Beer 5,444]

I just found it interesting that not many people had him in the side.

he didn't make mine but he is not far off.. as we all know the best 22 all fit basically never happens so I would expect Dunny to play most games.. never been a big fan but the last couple of seasons he has shown a bit, I like his presence, offsets a bit of the bullying that goes on with all our young kids when they are up against seasoned teams.

[Nasher 33,161]

B: Garland, McDonald, Terlich
HB: Grimes, Frawley, Toumpas
C: Vince, Trengove, Tyson
HF: Howe, Dawes, Watts
F: Hogan, Clark, Kent
R: Spencer, Jones, Viney
IN: Michie, M.Jones, McKenzie
S: Evans

Notes:

* I've assumed Michie and Tyson to be best 22. Vince obviously is.
* I consider Toumpas, Vince, Trengove, Tyson, N.Jones, Viney, Michie, M.Jones, McKenzie, Grimes, Howe and Watts to be our 'midfield' rotation. The latter three to spend less time in the middle than the others. Positions I've named these players in are indicative only.
* I expect best mates Terlich and Clisby to be competing for the same position. I've got Terlich in this side due to his good year, and he gets a stack of the ball, but he needs to use it better and defend better if he's to hold his spot. Could have gone either way.
* I have Spencer as first ruck. Gawn demonstrated this year that he's not ready for long stints in the ruck, Jamar hasn't played any meaningful footy in a while and I reckon he's cooked, and I don't want Clark in the ruck full time. Spencer gets the nod by process of elimination. I know many don't rate him, too bad so sad, he's the best we've got at the moment. This job is Gawn's for the taking.
* Clark as 5 minutes a quarter ruck. Fitzpatrick to play this role if Clark ends up off the park again. If Clark plays but can't do this, I think we've got a balance problem.
* Clark, Dawes, Hogan to rotate between CHF and FF as needed. I desperately hope the three of them work together - it's a top heavy forward line but if they can pull it off, it will be lethal.
* I've excluded anyone we haven't drafted yet. McKenzie and Matt Jones are first to be dropped if we select best 22 midfielders in the draft/DFA.
* Still had lots of not ideal players to choose from for the sub position. This exercise has shown me that we're not a complete side yet by a long way.

[jnrmac 19,245]

I love how people have Michie in he best 22. What a joke, The kid has played 1 game.

And yes I know Hogan hasn't played one but he is a B&F winner and a 'top 3' draft choice. Michie was originally pick #44.

He might prove to be OK but he ain't the messiah.

[stuie 7,374]

R: Spencer

[stuie 7,374]

I love how people have Michie in he best 22. What a joke, The kid has played 1 game.

And yes I know Hogan hasn't played one but he is a B&F winner and a 'top 3' draft choice. Michie was originally pick #44.

He might prove to be OK but he ain't the messiah.

You watched us play this year right?

[Go the Biff 3,190]

A game I haven't played for a while but let's give it a go.

B: Strauss Frawley Garland

HB: Grimes McDonald Terlich

C : Kent Viney Howe

HF: Trengove Dawes Watts

F: Hogan Clark Blease

R : Jamar Jones Tyson

I : Michie Vince Taggart Toumpas

Emer : Evans, Dunn, Fitzpatrick

To make meaningful progress, we need to not only profit from the current round of drafting & trading. We need some of our recent selections to develop as well. Which is why you'll see the likes of Blease, Strauss & Taggart in my team. The three of them have had little luck to date, particularly with injury but I think all three can play

We aren't flush with small defenders. Strauss's defensive efforts improved last season. His right boot is a ripper & I'd like to see what he can do when kicking to a midfield who actually want the ball. I prefer him taking kick-in duties as well. Our fallback options are Clisby off the rookie list (no certainty), Jetta & Nicholson

Blease - outside mid (winger for older blokes like me) with genuine speed, which we sadly lack & knows where the goals are. Likes kicking them too which is important in my book. Alternative is probably Evans or Barry but while I have hope for him, he's a while off. Taggert is another goal kicking mid who has developed into a really nice size as well. I was annoyed that he wasn't given AFL time towards the end of this year.

Having pumped them up it's now more than likely they'll all be given the arse next week. Either trade or a DCM if uncontracted

Back to my team. No room for Fitz. Clark, Watts, Hogan etc will all have to help out in the ruck. I want four mids on my bench.

We lack pace badly which is another reason I've kept Blease in. I think Kent has more pace & upside than Matty Jones & is more dangerous around goal. With interchange caps on the horizon I see value in a number of mids in a three way rotation. On as small / deep forward, rotate in to the midfield, go flat stick and then rotate onto the bench. Rinse & repeat. Players like Kent, Blease, Tyson, Vince & to some extent Trengove have shown they can be handy near goals. Plus we don't have an out & out small forward so we are better off rotating mids there.

When fit (& in form), Jamar is probably still our best first ruck. I'm looking forward to Gawn taking the spot away from him, through weight of performance though rather than opportunity created by injury.

Garland, McDonald & Frawley are the cornerstones of our defence. Who plays where I think depends entirely on matchups so I've just left them in their usual spots. Grimes reading of the play, courage & intercept marking are best utilised off a half back flank. We have no Hodge. Grimes is the closest thing we have. If only he could kick like Hodge.

The other back flank gave me trouble. I've given it to Terlich ahead of Dunn & Nicholson. If Pick 9 is a Dyson Heppel type then he will have a spot that his for the taking. Not that I think Terlich is hopeless - I'd like to see him work with a functional midfield but HBF is somewhere where a bit more class is required these days.

Up forward I imagine there will be a bit of rotating going on between 3 players. Dawes is your hit-up CHF type. Clark notionally our FF and Hogan takes the "Jack Darling" role in his first season

I've listed Trengove & Watts on the HFF but both will go into the midfield for significant periods of time. I'd like to see Watts as a 6'6" Ryan O'Keeffe type. That would take some stopping. Again if & when interchanges are heavily capped, coaches & fitness managers will be looking at loads & player will be spending time rotating between "High intensity running" and "lower intensity running" positions.

No surprises in the midfield - except maybe Howe who many see purely as a forward but who I can see being developed into a Daisy Thomas type of marking running mid who can cause havoc going forward. Again, with rotations he would spend time deep forward.

Two things stand out when I look at my starting 22 and the list of players left off. Firstly my team looks to have a lot fewer ball-burners than we sent out last year. Secondly, we need luck with injuries because there in not much in reserve. If you accept that at 25 Matty Jones has pretty much showed all he's got to offer, Dom Barry is the only "developing" player on our senior list today who is not a ruckman

[deejammin' 2,082]

B: McDonald,Frawley Terlich
HB: Grimes, Garland, Michie
C: Watts, Tyson, Toumpas
HF: Howe, Clark, Trengove
F: Hogan, Dawes, Kent
R: Jamar, Jones, Viney
IN: Vince, Evans, McKenzie
S: Blease
E: Dunn, M Jones, Spencer

KPF: Clark (BU Ruck), Dawes, Hogan

Forward/Mid:Howe, Kent

Mids: Tyson, Jones, Viney, Watts, Mckensie, Evans, Trengove, Michie, Toumpas, Blease (Sub)
Back/Mid: Grimes, Terlich
KPB: Frawley, Garland, McDonald

Coaches:

Senior: Paul Roos

Senior Assistant: On Ice

Fwd: ??????????? Mid: George Stone Backs: Jade Rawlings

Dev Fwd: B Miller Dev Mid: B Matthews Dev Backs: B Allison

I have the lineup but the more relevant bit is the splits into roles. I believe Howe and Kent will play 70/30 Forward with short stints in the Midfield, similarly with Terlich and Grimes I think the vast majority of their time will be as running backs with roles. This leaves us 10 decent players to rotate through our midfield, I think Watts and Toumpas are best suited to the wings due to their speed and skills while I see Tyson, Jones, Viney as our No.1 centre bounce lineup with all in form as it has the most grunt with ball getting ability in order to get the ball out to the runners. It would be interesting to see some other centre bounce structures as I think , Vince, Mckensie, Trengove would not be a bad rotation. i'm backing Jamar to get into some form and make the ruck spot competitive although I wouldn't mind seeing Gawn in there should he be able to gain the tank. Clark and Watts to provide chopouts in the Ruck with Clark to do the rucking in the forward line to keep our ruckman primarily behind the ball.

The midfield rotation still isn't great, but its a hell of a lot better than last year in theory, I can't wait to see what this lineup can do, particularly if we keep all our KPPs and main mids on the park for 15 or more games.

Also I included the coaches to gain feelings on who is likely, or in the spirit of the thread, ideal, to be our forward coach???

Edit: Forgot Evans, who I rate. To emergency with you M Jones.

Edited October 20, 2013 by deejammin'

[Nasher 33,161]

I explained my reasoning. Are you challenging it, or...?

[DemonWA 3,520]

I love how people have Michie in he best 22. What a joke, The kid has played 1 game.

And yes I know Hogan hasn't played one but he is a B&F winner and a 'top 3' draft choice. Michie was originally pick #44.

He might prove to be OK but he ain't the messiah.

I agree, but michie also won a b and f in a state league this year, and peel have the alignment with the dockers.

Ps. I see a lot of people naming him on a wing. IMO he's more of a ruck rover or centerman, good at the inside stuff and reads the ruck taps very well

[Dees2014 2,377]

B: Garland, McDonald, Terlich

HB: Grimes, Frawley, Toumpas

C: Vince, Trengove, Tyson

HF: Howe, Dawes, Watts

F: Hogan, Clark, Kent

R: Spencer, Jones, Viney

IN: Michie, M.Jones, McKenzie

S: Evans

Notes:

* I've assumed Michie and Tyson to be best 22. Vince obviously is.

* I consider Toumpas, Vince, Trengove, Tyson, N.Jones, Viney, Michie, M.Jones, McKenzie, Grimes, Howe and Watts to be our 'midfield' rotation. The latter three to spend less time in the middle than the others. Positions I've named these players in are indicative only.

* I expect best mates Terlich and Clisby to be competing for the same position. I've got Terlich in this side due to his good year, and he gets a stack of the ball, but he needs to use it better and defend better if he's to hold his spot. Could have gone either way.

* I have Spencer as first ruck. Gawn demonstrated this year that he's not ready for long stints in the ruck, Jamar hasn't played any meaningful footy in a while and I reckon he's cooked, and I don't want Clark in the ruck full time. Spencer gets the nod by process of elimination. I know many don't rate him, too bad so sad, he's the best we've got at the moment. This job is Gawn's for the taking.

* Clark as 5 minutes a quarter ruck. Fitzpatrick to play this role if Clark ends up off the park again. If Clark plays but can't do this, I think we've got a balance problem.

* Clark, Dawes, Hogan to rotate between CHF and FF as needed. I desperately hope the three of them work together - it's a top heavy forward line but if they can pull it off, it will be lethal.

* I've excluded anyone we haven't drafted yet. McKenzie and Matt Jones are first to be dropped if we select best 22 midfielders in the draft/DFA.

* Still had lots of not ideal players to choose from for the sub position. This exercise has shown me that we're not a complete side yet by a long way.

Gawn didn't have the tank because he only got into full training just before the season started. I know - I used to ride my bike to training at least once a week and I used to see him spend most of his time jogging around the oval with Trengove and Bail. He will be very very different this year with a full pre season. So will Mitch, Bleese, Grimes, Viney and Dawes. It will make a real difference. Edited October 20, 2013 by Dees2014

[judge 0]

B: Strauss Frawley Garland

HB: Grimes McDonald Terlich

C: Watts McKenzie Toumpas

HF: Blease Dawes Trengove

FF: Hogan Clark Howe

R: Gawn Jones Vince

Bench: Viney Michie Tyson

Sub: Clisby

Expect Watts to play a Ryan O'Keefe role under Paul Roos (One of the reasons why Roos wanted to hold onto him so desperately).

Michie will be in our best 22, otherwise we wouldn't have recruited him. Freo have spent the past 3 years developing him and would of been in the team if they didn't have such a strong more experienced midfield already.

Strauss is someone who hasn't been seen enough of and I expect him to have a breakout year.

If Roos can finally get some sort of defensive mindset into Sam Blease, he could be anything and I expect him to have a better, more consistant season.

Dissapointed people don't see the true value of Jordie McKenzie and are leaving him out of the team. Beats his oppenent every week and wears his heart on his sleeve.

Edited October 20, 2013 by judge

[Hannibal 5,814]

Anyone who thinks Michie won't be in the best 22 is a knucklehead. He wasn't drafted to play at Casey. Fremantle wanted to retain him and he chose Melbourne because of the opportunities we promised. And we promised these opportunities because we rate him. And it's not Neeld and Co rating him, it's Roos and co.

[Binmans PA 26,370]

I like your posting Adam, but if Clark isn't rucking that line-up who is?

Ah, I misinterpreted you here, 55. I thought you meant Clark rucking at centre bounces. I suppose he'll do the forward rucking, unless they feel Hogan can do it.

[stuie 7,374]

I explained my reasoning. Are you challenging it, or...?

Yep. Official challenge...

Gawn played 13 games this year, Spencer played 8, so he's already ahead.

Gawn will have improved fitness next year so he will push further ahead.

[Binmans PA 26,370]

The one element of modern footy that some observers seem to lack understanding of is the role of the "small forward". The game has changed and it's about defensive forwards, who can tackle and contribute on the scoreboard. Crumbing goal kickers have to be able to play through the midfield and will never merely be stay-at-home forwards, at the feet of man mountain full forwards. The game has evolved.

Whilst I don't think our list is rounded by any stretch of the imagination, I don't see us requiring a "small forward" in the traditional mould. We certainly lack pace in our side and hopefully the acquisition of someone like Freeman will assist this, but in the next one to two years, I'd be looking for more outside pace to compliment the rest of our list. They may start as natural forward pockets or forward flankers, but they will need to be able to drift into the midfield and play a role. They will also need to possess a good goal sense, speed and strong tackling abilities.

Flexibility is particularly pertinent to a Paul Roos coached side (and the successful modern teams), so I suspect he'd look at our list in a similar fashion and identify players who will fill those needs.

To a degree, the role of a "small defender" has evolved too. They must be able to run through the midfield, but must also be able to break lines at half back and deliver efficiency to their team mates up the field. I reckon this is the sort of player we'll target in the next (2014) trade/draft period. In the meantime though, one would hope Strauss can become proficient at this.

[Bitter but optimistic 21,483]

Yep. Official challenge...

Gawn played 13 games this year, Spencer played 8, so he's already ahead.

Gawn will have improved fitness next year so he will push further ahead.

Given equal preseasons Spencer will ruck in front of Gawn. Jamar is a question mark - does he get a game on seniority if fit - or are they going to march him into the sunset in some sort of development role.

Anyway to Spencer. At the moment he is a much better and more frequent tackler than Gawn. Neither are great kicks but I reckon Spencer is ahead. Also Spencer is more agile and can win the ball when it hits the ground. Both need work in pack marking.

Hopefully they both develop into into top line rucks and give the selection committee a headache.

[old55 21,499]

Ah, I misinterpreted you here, 55. I thought you meant Clark rucking at centre bounces. I suppose he'll do the forward rucking, unless they feel Hogan can do it.

No you didn't, there's no way your ruck selection Gawn can take 100% of non "forward rucking", someone has to give him a chop-out, including centre bounces and all around the ground. The only player in your line-up that can do that id Clark and if Gawn gets injured then Clark's doing it all. I don't have a problem with this, any other solution, as Nasher says, is unbalanced.

Every line-up I looked at on this thread has this set-up - whether they realise it or not (maybe someone has Fitz on the bench).

Edited October 20, 2013 by Fifty-5

[Binmans PA 26,370]

I'm a believer in sink or swim.

Whilst Trengove has suffered from lofty expectations as has Watts ,they will come out of it as better players.

Gysberts swam,then sunk,which was odd but then we have had a few like that before.

Blease,Evans,Strauss and Gawn have missed so much footy through injury that they will have another year to show their stuff.

Frawley matched it from the start and never makes excuses .

Having said all that ,i am sure Roos will play the fittest,best team available regardless of name or reputation ,age or experience.

That's not quite true. Chip really struggled when he started. I'm guessing, but I still believe Wellman's coaching was key to his development. He's obviously one of our most important players now.

[stuie 7,374]

Given equal preseasons Spencer will ruck in front of Gawn. Jamar is a question mark - does he get a game on seniority if fit - or are they going to march him into the sunset in some sort of development role.

Anyway to Spencer. At the moment he is a much better and more frequent tackler than Gawn. Neither are great kicks but I reckon Spencer is ahead. Also Spencer is more agile and can win the ball when it hits the ground. Both need work in pack marking.

Hopefully they both develop into into top line rucks and give the selection committee a headache.

I'd have that the other way around. Spencer has had more preseasons than Gawn, including last year, yet Gawn still played more games this year. With a proper preseason Gawn will be miles ahead of Spencer next year.

Also, not sure where you get your info but Gawn averaged more tackles than Spencer this year, so you can forget that argument.

Edited October 20, 2013 by stuie