Bombers scandal: charged, <redacted> and <infracted>

[Dees2014 2,377]

It is said that the fish rots from the head - the board was not fulfilling its duties to govern and manage risk so now the board has mostly gone hasnt it?

It is important that board members know their roles and whilst allowing employees to do their jobs also do their own and protect the organisation from risk.

And because there is a prima facie case to suggest they neglected their director duties which requires them to protect the health of their employees, Worksafe and the ACC will become involved and there may well be criminal prosecutions from worksafe, and prosecutions of directors for not fulfilling their professional obligations. The penalties are these days severe for Directors who do fulfill their professional obligations. Don't be surprised if we see some of the most powerful names in the AFL ending up in the dock.

[Cards13 9,117]

Dees when will Worksafe become involved, as has been discussed before if this was happening at the company I work for... they would be in here in a flash.

[PJ_12345 1,098]

Dees when will Worksafe become involved, as has been discussed before if this was happening at the company I work for... they would be in here in a flash.

Someone posted that Worksafe should (speculating) make a move after ASADA's investigation as they will be relying on most of their information.

Makes sense when you think about it, but their silence has been a bit deafening. At least come out with a statement!

[jazza 1,323]

Someone posted that Worksafe should (speculating) make a move after ASADA's investigation as they will be relying on most of their information.

Makes sense when you think about it, but their silence has been a bit deafening. At least come out with a statement!

you are spot on

apart from the statement bit

everytime somebody has made an official statement the media has gone into overdrive

i would think that the last thing worksafe want is the media camped outside the office waiting for more quotes and then speculation street taking over the newspapers

[Dees2014 2,377]

Dees when will Worksafe become involved, as has been discussed before if this was happening at the company I work for... they would be in here in a flash.

Cards, unlike WADA/ASADA who are largely free from political interference, the same cannot be said fore Worksafe and to a lessor extent ACCC. My feeling is that what the powers may be waiting for is the findings of ASADA to be handed down and infraction notices issued before they act because then they (ASADA) will have done all the heavy lifting and their case will be laid out for them. The ACCC maybe the same, although I am not encouraged by the utterances of Tony Abbott and George Brandis who by their comments after the Canberra news conference last year when this first came to light (and since then even after they took office) seem to want to make this in to a party political issue, and appear to be taking the side of the great and the powerful who control major sport in this country. I hope I am wrong. We shall see I guess.

Whatever they think and do, fortunately it will not effect the actions and finding of WADA/ASADA. That is beyond the interference of the Australian political masters.

Edited January 13, 2014 by Dees2014

[Cards13 9,117]

Someone posted that Worksafe should (speculating) make a move after ASADA's investigation as they will be relying on most of their information.

Makes sense when you think about it, but their silence has been a bit deafening. At least come out with a statement!

Was it Fahey who said he was amazed Worksafe had not investigated them as yet? nope found the artilce it was "anger".

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/essendon-set-to-face-several-charges-from-asada-says-john-fahey-20131213-2zc1v.html

“Where is WorkSafe Victoria in all of this? How can James Hird be at the helm of the club as the head coach when 4000-plus injections have been given to playing staff, none of which anybody can tell us what it was, most of which we know is not approved for human consumption, and put at risk these kids, and not have WorkSafe Victoria banging on their door that this is an unsafe workplace?" he said.

"Nothing's been done there – that's the sacred cow AFL is. It's disgraceful that WorkSafe haven't been in there tipping it on its head.”

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/essendon-set-to-face-several-charges-from-asada-says-john-fahey-20131213-2zc1v.html#ixzz2qKCRFjhi

[PJ_12345 1,098]

you are spot on

apart from the statement bit

everytime somebody has made an official statement the media has gone into overdrive

i would think that the last thing worksafe want is the media camped outside the office waiting for more quotes and then speculation street taking over the newspapers

Only reason I want a statement is to make them squirm after reading Little's comments at their last AGM

[dpositive 1,557]

Nonsense...

Gee Dees that's a pretty dismissive response to my admittedly speculative comment and while I agree with your follow up which was a little more descriptive,

'And because there is a prima facie case to suggest they neglected their director duties which requires them to protect the health of their employees, Worksafe and the ACC will become involved and there may well be criminal prosecutions from worksafe, and prosecutions of directors for not fulfilling their professional obligations. The penalties are these days severe for Directors who do fulfill their professional obligations. Don't be surprised if we see some of the most powerful names in the AFL ending up in the dock." I fail to see how your comment is less speculative than mine. I will however do it more justice than calling it nonsense.

In support of my point I note that several players are close to retirement Hird himself may never return to the game despite his lucrative retainer, I think several of the committee have retired, the weapon and dnks seem to to have disappeared down some crevasse.

If your speculation is correct these people charged and prosecuted may all be well distanced from the AFL system

If the purpose of the actions is to remove these practices from sports the publicity may well already have had that effect I do believe that it could have and should have a more direct punitive impact on the perpetrators which was the subject of my very brief comment

I could have and am willing to provide greater detail if required in order to gain your approval for my comment

[Bedraggled Dee 336]

Gee Dees that's a pretty dismissive response to my admittedly speculative comment and while I agree with your follow up which was a little more descriptive,

'And because there is a prima facie case to suggest they neglected their director duties which requires them to protect the health of their employees, Worksafe and the ACC will become involved and there may well be criminal prosecutions from worksafe, and prosecutions of directors for not fulfilling their professional obligations. The penalties are these days severe for Directors who do fulfill their professional obligations. Don't be surprised if we see some of the most powerful names in the AFL ending up in the dock." I fail to see how your comment is less speculative than mine. I will however do it more justice than calling it nonsense.

In support of my point I note that several players are close to retirement Hird himself may never return to the game despite his lucrative retainer, I think several of the committee have retired, the weapon and dnks seem to to have disappeared down some crevasse.

If your speculation is correct these people charged and prosecuted may all be well distanced from the AFL system

If the purpose of the actions is to remove these practices from sports the publicity may well already have had that effect I do believe that it could have and should have a more direct punitive impact on the perpetrators which was the subject of my very brief comment

I could have and am willing to provide greater detail if required in order to gain your approval for my comment

I dont think the ACC will take any action themselves, they will refer it to the AFP or State Police for that. If there is evidence of criminal offences the relevant State or Federal Agency will commence procedings if it meets the threshold of public interest. This will be based on the seriousness of the offence, the cost of procedings and whole bunch of other factors designed to prevent public money being wasted on minor or speculative matters. The time elepased between the offence and the prosecution and whether the individuals are still emplyed by the club will be minor considerations at best.

I would not be surprised to see criminal procedings against Dank (and his dodgy doctors and phamacists), Roinson and Charters under various Acts. This will also trigger deregistration by governing bodies who will want them out of their industries.

I have no knowledge of corporate law but if there is sufficient evidence of offences it would not surprise me if procedings occur against ex office holders at the Bombers.

Hird may be subject to workcover offences as might the club and other employees. He may also be caught up in the Dank etc offences but I have my doubts about that.

IMO this will all be after the ASADA investigations of any WADA code breaches has been completed and will use evidence from both the AFL and NRL enquiries.

[Crompton's the man 635]

Is it not correct that about a month ago someone posted that one of the WADA or ASADA employees had been buying products from one of the suppliers under investigation ?

I can recall reading that and thinking : this investigation might be going nowhere

[rjay 23,970]

I wouldn't think Worksafe have to wait or link into anything that ASADA, ACC or the AFL have on the go. The evidence seems to be there already if Essendon can't explain their injection and supplements program and back it up with documentation which they say they don't have then they are gone.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Cards, unlike WADA/ASADA who are largely free from political interference, the same cannot be said fore Worksafe and to a lessor extent ACCC. My feeling is that what the powers may be waiting for is the findings of ASADA to be handed down and infraction notices issued before they act because then they (ASADA) will have done all the heavy lifting and their case will be laid out for them. The ACCC maybe the same, although I am not encouraged by the utterances of Tony Abbott and George Brandis who by their comments after the Canberra news conference last year when this first came to light (and since then even after they took office) seem to want to make this in to a party political issue, and appear to be taking the side of the great and the powerful who control major sport in this country. I hope I am wrong. We shall see I guess.

Whatever they think and do, fortunately it will not effect the actions and finding of WADA/ASADA. That is beyond the interference of the Australian political masters.

As we are yet to see what the outcome is of the ASADA investigation, its ill informed to determine that ASADA/WADA is free of political interference.

I am not sure how you view the interim report that was done to appease the AFL and was undertaken in allegedly a joint investigation with the AFL.No interference there??

I am not sure you can make a forthright comparison with Worksafe and the ACC (you did say ACCC I trust by default(. I am not sure there are any prime examples where there has been significant political influence in either body.

The real position is that none of us actually know until we see the outcome of the ASADA investigation and what if any action is taken by Worksafe and the ACC within their statutory remit following the findings.

As for Worksafe there may well be good grounds for them to hold fire awaiting the ASADA outcome so its premature to may judgement on them at this stage. If the ASADA review and findings is as comprehensive as has been stated in the media then there will be sufficient evidence to mount their workplace findings

Edited January 14, 2014 by Rhino Richards

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

You're loose with the facts and I understand that you are not a lawyer.

1. ASADA and WADA are not effectively one organisation. ASADA is a Federal Government statutory body that has been set up to implement WADA rules. WADA is dependent upon the funding and integrity of the empowerment of ASADA by the Government. The comments of John Fahey in the media highlight a frustration with the process to date and the lack of action upon Hird and others in the doping scandal. As you have noted he was unhappy with the joint investigation by the AFL.

2. The ACC = Australian Crime Commission. ACCC = Australian Competition and Consumer Commission. It's role is to protect consumer and foster competition in Australia. The ACCC has no specific interest in this matter. ACC certainly does have an interest in the outcome.

3. ASIC = Australian Securities and Investments Commission. ASIC is the body that will regulate breaches by directors of the Corporations Act. I am not aware that the ASADA report will specifically highlight activities which were breaches of the Corps Act. It would appear that the Board like the previously departed CEO were unaware of this. The issue of duty of care and negligence is a common law action. There may well be such action against a number of parties including EFC to which the Board will be specifically handling when required.

4. All the Government agencies are resource constrained including ASADA. It's one reason why they unwisely collaborated with the AFL on the 1st investigation. I would have thought it was reasonable for some Government authorities to await the finding of the main agency ASADA to prevent any risk of compromise and in efficiency.

It's still not clear beyond guesswork how you can make judgements on the level of political interference in various Government agencies particularly when you are aware of their actual structure and role.

[Bedraggled Dee 336]

Great post I agree completely.

In addition I think it is likely that flowing from the NRL and AFL enquiries police and the Theraputic Goods Adminstration will lay some criminal and civil charges for supply, use and import of controlled substances.

If this occurs the Medical Board and Pharmacy Board will get involved and a few deregistrations will follow.

Hird is in trouble for breaching the WADA code if infractions follow and may be in trouble from Worksafe but the ACCC and Police matters will not directly affect him.

[bing181 8,207]

I am talking about ASADA and WADA as effectively one organiation, as one is the local arm, and WADA is the global arm charged with enforcing anti doping drug laws in sport.

As per Rhino's post, that's not actually the case. They're very different kinds of organisations. For example, ASADA don't make any rules and WADA don't do any testing, undertake enquiries, or hand out penalties.

WADA monitors cases, but only once the process is completed. If at that stage they have concerns about the (disciplinary) process or the result, they can appeal to the CAS. Their role at that stage is very much about harmonisation and consistency of penalties.

[Whispering_Jack 28,025]

I would have thought it was reasonable for some Government authorities to await the finding of the main agency ASADA to prevent any risk of compromise and in efficiency.

I suspect however, that in the case of this subject, it might be the other way around and that the ASADA investigation is being constrained by the ongoing ACC investigation which is looking into the importation and trafficking of illegal drugs. This is a multi-million dollar industry enmeshed deeply with organised crime and a matter of priority for the government.

It's been said that these investigations led to the unveiling of the supplements programmes at clubs in both the NRL and the AFL, with Stephen Dank involved with clubs in both competitions. I think the legal and evidentiary complexities involved are the reasons for what appear to be unreasonable delays in the ASADA final reports. It seems as if this has been going on forever and while you can't rule out attempts at government interference, I'm not sure that politics is behind the delays and it goes without saying (but I'll say it anyway) that the AFL and Demetriou are not powerful enough to sweep this under the carpet.

[jackaub 1,402]

The word is that Hird and Essendon have, in fact, not signed a contract extension beyond 2014 and that in all likelihood Hird will never coach again. This might fit in with your comments about Bomber Thompson.

Couldnt agree More -we are watching a long term managed exit of Jimmy Hird will never coach again

Bye bye Golden Boy.

[jazza 1,323]

Couldnt agree More -we are watching a long term managed exit of Jimmy Hird will never coach again

Bye bye Golden Boy.

heart broken and still waiting for the chit to hit fan at bomberland

[monoccular 16,293]

Couldnt agree More -we are watching a long term managed exit of Jimmy Hird will never coach again

Bye bye Golden Boy.

But he still gets to keep his extra million, for doing nothing. IF the Bummers are hit with big fines, and possibly damages, I wonder how the 'loyal Jimmy fans' will react as the club struggles financially?

Edited January 16, 2014 by monoccular

[PJ_12345 1,098]

Couldnt agree More -we are watching a long term managed exit of Jimmy Hird will never coach again

Bye bye Golden Boy.

Try saying that to a Essendon supporter - I have and its futile... "No you're wrong. Trust me Hird will be coaching again."

Worrying.

I can't see a future for AD or JH after this. Someone will have to be the scapegoat. Evans and Corcoran are gone, Reid has a probably the best image after the AFL dropped their charges and Thompson is small compared to Hird.

Just a matter of time till Hird gets thrown under the bus and labelled as a loose cannon.

[jazza 1,323]

funny you say that PJ 12345

down in the country we seem to be far different people to you city folks

most of my mates who are don supporters are ashamed of what happened at thier club and we often speak about the issue

which suits me after years of copping it in the neck from them

we keep relating back to our footy club and our time playing/coaching atec

the one issue that keeps springing to mind is we WOULDNT allow this to get to this point.

we would bulldoze anybody out of our club and make sure our footballer/netballers are protected under all circumstances

so in replying to your bomber fans are bias,i dont beleive that,

good people are everywhere and dont buy this flim flam story

[PJ_12345 1,098]

funny you say that PJ 12345

down in the country we seem to be far different people to you city folks

most of my mates who are don supporters are ashamed of what happened at thier club and we often speak about the issue

which suits me after years of copping it in the neck from them

we keep relating back to our footy club and our time playing/coaching atec

the one issue that keeps springing to mind is we WOULDNT allow this to get to this point.

we would bulldoze anybody out of our club and make sure our footballer/netballers are protected under all circumstances

so in replying to your bomber fans are bias,i dont beleive that,

good people are everywhere and dont buy this flim flam story

Goes without saying. But the majority (2/3) of all Essendon supporters I have talked with, whilst ashamed, still believe JH will be coaching again.

RE the other stuff, thats just my personal view.

Edited January 17, 2014 by PJ_12345

[Sir Why You Little 34,711]

I wish they would hurry up and crucify these bastards....most of my Essendrug Aquaintances are becoming loud and cocky again..

"Still waiting for proof" they say.

So the F am i.

[jazza 1,323]

I wish they would hurry up and crucify these bastards....most of my Essendrug Aquaintances are becoming loud and cocky again..

"Still waiting for proof" they say.

So the F am i.

some duck tastes better the longer its cooked

better still,give your mate a brick and tell him to chew on it,because theyre still cooking big fella

[Sir Why You Little 34,711]

some duck tastes better the longer its cooked

better still,give your mate a brick and tell him to chew on it,because theyre still cooking big fella

I sure hope you are right Jazz, you and i have been in complete agreements since this filthy saga began.

Unbelievable that Little is now the CEO as well as Presidente over there...