Neeld is not the problem

[Gorgoroth 12,954]

"The gameplan doesn't work" Again, utter BS. Casey are playing the same gameplan and are one of the top sides in the VFL. The difference is that their players EXECUTE the gameplan, while the majority of the senior side are either unable or unwilling to do so. Again, this is a fault of the playing group who need to work harder on their skills and execution. As Dawes said, the coach shouldn't be wasting time teaching his players how to

How can we argue that the game plan is working?

I can see anything that resembles a game plan! Each quarter, hell, every 15 minutes we play differently (other than butchering the ball all game).

Even when we were crap under Bailey you could see a semblance of what he was trying to build.

The only hing I see under Neeld is terrible disposal, inability to hit targets, no one spreading and running to spaces, the opposition waltzing the ball from kick outs, us turning the ball over from kick outs. Ineffective pressure.

So please enlighten me to this game play you speak of.

[RalphiusMaximus 6,053]

The only hing I see under Neeld is terrible disposal, inability to hit targets, no one spreading and running to spaces, the opposition waltzing the ball from kick outs, us turning the ball over from kick outs. Ineffective pressure.

So please enlighten me to this game play you speak of.

So you agree then that the gameplan can't be judged by the performance of the senior team due to their "terrible disposal, inability to hit targets, no one spreading and running to spaces," which was basically my point on the players needing to get it right.

If you want to see it working properly, go and watch Casey play.

[ThreeOneSix 954]

Even if Neeld isn't the problem for our dismal performances, he is fast becoming a problem in that he is damaging our brand.

OTC harps on about it and as much as I don't like Healy, he is right.

Every football show on the air bags out Neeld, papers bag the bloke our and the common perception in the mainstream is that he is a failure.

This will effect our ability to recruit players if we leave Neeld at the helm.

With all the problems we have had with tanking, etc... This current board, has to go, that much is obvious.

Forget the players that might walk come seasons end, that is speculation I won't comment on.
But, that aside, we need to recruit ready made players... What player in their right mind would come to this club giving what has happened over the past year?

And... What is happening currently.... We need a fresh start... Hopefully Peter Jackson is ready to start the cull.

[RalphiusMaximus 6,053]

You can't blame Neeld for the p*ss poor drafting that happened before he was at the club! How many times do I have to say it? He has had two drafts with us. In that time he has spent first round picks on Mitch Clark (Win), Jimmy Toumpas (yet to be decided) and Hulk Hogan (Win).

Blaming him for reporters being reporters and looking to score cheap headlines is almost as bad. Melbourne are an easy target and have been for years. That won't change with a new coach. It will only give them more ammunition.

[Gorgoroth 12,954]

So you agree then that the gameplan can't be judged by the performance of the senior team due to their "terrible disposal, inability to hit targets, no one spreading and running to spaces," which was basically my point on the players needing to get it right.

If you want to see it working properly, go and watch Casey play.

All those things are the coaches job!!!

If Neeld can't get his team to play a game style after 18 months then he has failed.

If Neeld can't train the players to hit a target then he has failed.

If Neeld can't get the players to run to the correct spots then he has failed.

The players do need to get it right, but the coach has to implement it and if they players are not doing what the coach wants then the coach has failed to either sell the game plan, have a good game plan or make them be able to play to his style.

If Welsh can get them to play a game style you say is the Melbourne game plan then FFS get him in the coaches box on Sunday and let him coach.

(Tbh I don't think the Casey game plan is the Melbourne game plan, I reckon it is the Casey game plan that Melbourne players can learn say enough and fit in nicely, yet those same players come up to AFL and are all at sea with a game plan that supposedly exists)

[RalphiusMaximus 6,053]

All those things are the coaches job!!!

If Neeld can't get his team to play a game style after 18 months then he has failed.

If Neeld can't train the players to hit a target then he has failed.

If Neeld can't get the players to run to the correct spots then he has failed.

The players do need to get it right, but the coach has to implement it and if they players are not doing what the coach wants then the coach has failed to either sell the game plan, have a good game plan or make them be able to play to his style.

If Welsh can get them to play a game style you say is the Melbourne game plan then FFS get him in the coaches box on Sunday and let him coach.

(Tbh I don't think the Casey game plan is the Melbourne game plan, I reckon it is the Casey game plan that Melbourne players can learn say enough and fit in nicely, yet those same players come up to AFL and are all at sea with a game plan that supposedly exists)

An AFL head coach should not have to worry about teaching his players how to kick the ball. This is why they have that kicking test at draft camp. The players are already supposed to have the basic skills to play the game when they arrive at the club. Once again, refer to Chris Dawes' comment. The coach shouldn't have to be teaching the players how to put in. The fact that he is being forced to waste his and their time trying to rectify these issues is an absolutely damning indictment on the playing group.

[Gorgoroth 12,954]

Players coming into the AFL still need coaching on skills, why the hell do you think we have all those coaches?

Do you think that every player that comes through the draft is as good as they will be? They just need to learn the game plan?

[thaipantsman 180]

Dr. Mubutu,

I enjoyed your comments on Couldabeens some 30 years ago. You're wrong on this one. Neeld may well be a fine man but he can't get the players to fire. Unless he goes we'll have a mass exodus of our first tier players. Watts, Sylvia and Frawley for starters. How could any good judge of mature age players actively go out and recruit Pederson's, Rodan's Byrnes, Sellar and Dawes. These 4 are Suburban Park Footballers playing for Melbourne. SHOKA

[chookrat 4,250]

It depends on what you are investing in as a stakeholder, and what returns you expect and when you expect to see them. For me, I've seriously thought about whether I renew for another year in 2014, but that thought doesn't last long because in the end I support this club. The thought to not renew was purely an emotive response, which I generally consider to be the worst way to make decisions.

When Neeld was appointed I thought it was a great move because he straight away provided his vision for the team, and laid out what was going to be expected. To me, this indicated someone with a plan. I also knew that it would take time, and when I look at our list, as I've said in other threads, it is obvious we are in a massive rebuilding process with a very inexperienced list. I can't in one moment say "things need to change" and that some players need to go even if they are experienced, and then demand instant success when we are left with an inexperienced list. Did I think we were so far back from the pack that it would take this long? No. But can I understand why it is? Yes.

The reasons I still believe we are on the right track is because the list decisions that have been made make a lot of sense to me. I'll outline my thinking.

Pre Neeld we relied on a forward line with Jurrah, Watts, Green, Petterd, Bate, Miller, and Dunn. We did not have a strong goal kicking marking option in the forward line.

Neeld has since recruited Mitch Clark, Chris Dawes, Cameron Pederson, and brought in young Hulk Hogan to give us more depth at this position then we have had in a LONG time.

Pre Neeld we relied on a midfield led by Moloney, McDonald, Bruce, Jones, Morton, and the newly acquired Scully and Trengove.

We then lost McDonald (big mistake by the Bailey group IMO), Bruce (was on his last legs) and now Moloney and Morton. Morton was going nowhere and after some of the things that have been said about Moloney, I'm glad he's no longer at the club. Scully obviously took the money.

Neeld knew we lacked leadership in the middle, and hard bodies, so he went out and firstly grabbed Magner and Couch for the rookie list, who provided relief for the younger bodies, and has now brought in Rodan and Byrnes to help provide leadership and benefit the culture of the club, and help develop our young midfield list. Neeld and co also actively pursued Wellingham, Young, and Ray. Unfortunately none took up the offer, but I reckon Farren Ray might be thinking he should have. This again showed an intent by Neeld to fill the wholes on our list as best he could. They are already saying that the midfield will be a priority in the next offseason.

The backline is the only area where I believe little work has been required, however the loss of Bartram has hurt us defensively, but I believe that players like Strauss and Terlich (a Neeld recruit) can help address that in the future.

All in all, I have seen a pattern where the club has actively identified areas of weakness on the list and recruited for those purposes. I believe we have a more well rounded list than we had the previous season, though it is less experienced. I think the pathway that is being taken is a positive one, and that in another year or two, we'll start seeing the results. .

Great post PM24.

I think we are on the right pathway but the myriad of off-field distractions and poor start to the season has impacted the teams form and confidence. I can see a core group of players really galvanizing - and defining what we stand for - by working through the poor on-field performance. As we work through this our confidence will increase leading to the sort of form and belief that top sides have.

I come across this article on WCE's 2010 season when they were rubbish finishing 16th to then finish in 4th place the following year, with virtually the same list. I've pulled out a few quotes that I think are relevant to our situation.

"A few competitive-ish losses lead into beltings by Richmond, the Bulldogs and Collingwood; and form, confidence and credibility were gone, never to reappear." - we were smashed in our first couple of games and our coaching team have been working to progressively re-build the teams confidence.

"Everything, but most specifically how bad the basic skills are. There are things that you just expect AFL footy players to be able to do – and amongst those I tend to think of as a pre-requisite are kicking, catching and that sort of thing." - this sounds familiar to us and shows that hitting targets and taking marks has as much to do with form and confidence then skill.

"From a playing perspective, there is a lot of youth, but no-one that seems to be holding them together. The senior guys – Cox, Glass, Kerr, Embley – are too few and struggling themselves." - if only we had the leadership of champion premiership players such as Cox, Glass, Kerr and Embley.

http://www.footyalmanac.com.au/2010-for-the-west-coast-eagles/

[RalphiusMaximus 6,053]

Great post PM24.

I think we are on the right pathway but the myriad of off-field distractions and poor start to the season has impacted the teams form and confidence. I can see a core group of players really galvanizing - and defining what we stand for - by working through the poor on-field performance. As we work through this our confidence will increase leading to the sort of form and belief that top sides have.

I come across this article on WCE's 2010 season when they were rubbish finishing 16th to then finish in 4th place the following year, with virtually the same list. I've pulled out a few quotes that I think are relevant to our situation.

"A few competitive-ish losses lead into beltings by Richmond, the Bulldogs and Collingwood; and form, confidence and credibility were gone, never to reappear." - we were smashed in our first couple of games and our coaching team have been working to progressively re-build the teams confidence.

"Everything, but most specifically how bad the basic skills are. There are things that you just expect AFL footy players to be able to do – and amongst those I tend to think of as a pre-requisite are kicking, catching and that sort of thing." - this sounds familiar to us and shows that hitting targets and taking marks has as much to do with form and confidence then skill.

"From a playing perspective, there is a lot of youth, but no-one that seems to be holding them together. The senior guys – Cox, Glass, Kerr, Embley – are too few and struggling themselves." - if only we had the leadership of champion premiership players such as Cox, Glass, Kerr and Embley.

http://www.footyalmanac.com.au/2010-for-the-west-coast-eagles/

Again, an awesome post with a great deal of common sense.

[binman 42,972]

That being said, I am a professional. I am very very good at what I do, and take pride in my work. As a professional, I accept that if this is the policy we have to work with, I have to make it work to the best of my ability regardless of what I think of it. I freely admit that I am counting the days until The Boss's contract expires in the hopes that she will be replaced, but while she is in charge I am going to do everything in my power to make things work, because I am a professional and that is my job.

This is a simple enough situation. As you have stated above, I have no faith whatsoever in this person. I think it was a terrible decision to give her the job and I am counting the days until she is gone. But I still give it 100%. If I can do that, why can't these players who are paid six figure salaries for playing a game they love to play do the same? There's no great secret to improving a team's performance. It takes hard work, goalsetting and application.

...... You can only control what you do, and if you put in 100% every time you walk on to the field then things will improve. Give me players who understand what they need to do to be the best and I'll be happy.

Ralphius, i've read quite a few variations on this theme on DL over the last few months, ie the players are pros, should take pride in their job and should be able to rise above having a coach who they don't like/respect etc. I agree with the sentiment.

However where i differ is that there is a missing element in this logic. That is that good teams play as a collective, a unit. Poor teams plays as a collection of individuals. It is the magic, hard to define element that separates good from average teams - the sum of the parts and all that. Good teams play like they have an extra man. Creating this magic is the job of the coach. All the great teams have a coach who has been able to create this magic.

There are lots of average teams who have played above their raw ability because that magic is there. Northey had that ability to create that magic. On current evidence Neeld does not. His team play like 22 individuals, and as he has pointed out on many occasions the team have trained and prepared pre and during the season very professionally but can't transfer that to the game time. That's because the magi is not there.

Using your work analogy, whilst you may be 100% professional and work hard i bet any money your boss is a terrible manager and unable to motivate your team (assuming you are part of one) or get them to perform to their full potential. Good on you for not dropping your standards but i bet you'd enjoy work more (and probably perform better) if you were part of a vibrant cohesive team, with a leader you respected and followed.

Edited May 30, 2013 by binman

[Cards13 9,117]

Sorry Iva toe fingers and typing don't mix. I thought changes were a foot this week in the footy dept but nothin seems to have happened is what I meant to say.

[What 18,810]

dropping one of our few competitive players and ball winners, James Magner, from a team that doesn't compete and cant win the ball.

Neeld is the problem and if you disagree you're clueless.

[Biffen 12,943]

Players coming into the AFL still need coaching on skills, why the hell do you think we have all those coaches?

Do you think that every player that comes through the draft is as good as they will be? They just need to learn the game plan?

Brian Royal is working on a grand plan .

it's under control.

[deanox 9,922]

dropping one of our few competitive players and ball winners, James Magner, from a team that doesn't compete and cant win the ball.

Neeld is the problem and if you disagree you're clueless.

HH, the problem with demonland at the moment is that there are two groups:

one group who are trying to consider everything in its entirety and all important factors to reach a solution. Typically this group acknowledges that there are lots of points of failing but that we don't know enough about what is really going on to have all the answers. Some think Neeld should go.

The other group wants to yell, stamp their feet and call people names if they don't agree with their opinion. Most of the people calling openly for Neeld to be sacked fall in this group.

Try to have a reasonable conversation instead of slagging off anyone who doesn't agree with you.

[DEELIRIOUS 156]

HH, the problem with demonland at the moment is that there are two groups:

one group who are trying to consider everything in its entirety and all important factors to reach a solution. Typically this group acknowledges that there are lots of points of failing but that we don't know enough about what is really going on to have all the answers. Some think Neeld should go.

The other group wants to yell, stamp their feet and call people names if they don't agree with their opinion. Most of the people calling openly for Neeld to be sacked fall in this group.

Try to have a reasonable conversation instead of slagging off anyone who doesn't agree with you.

You're delusional. Neeld is the problem

[Cheesy D. Pun 1,765]

I, for one, didn't expect it to happen "straight away", but I did expect to see incremental improvement. Not go into reverse at a great rate of knots. I think that is a reasonable expectation for any paid up member.

He had nothing to build incremental improvement on Iv'a. Instead, he has chosen to tear it all down and start again. We have no reason to get rid of Neeld without giving him his full tenure UNLESS we, as a supporter base, stop paying for memberships and going to games. It's our choice. If you don't like the product, don't buy it.

Personally, my gut feel is that we achieve nothing by moving another coach on, especially at such an early stage - but I know many here disagree.

[Cheesy D. Pun 1,765]

dropping one of our few competitive players and ball winners, James Magner, from a team that doesn't compete and cant win the ball.

Neeld is the problem and if you disagree you're clueless.

Hahahaha...You'd be awesome at writing essays.

[DemonFrog 1,354]

So you agree then that the gameplan can't be judged by the performance of the senior team due to their "terrible disposal, inability to hit targets, no one spreading and running to spaces," which was basically my point on the players needing to get it right.

If you want to see it working properly, go and watch Casey play.

That great news so we should have Casey playing for the MFC and our players playing in the VFL. Makes sense to me, when can we have the change?

[tonatopia 278]

By keeping neeld we prove to the world the following about MFC supporters;

We are patient

Optimistic

Easily led

Easily fooled

Inflexible

Stubborn

Arrogant

Delusional

Irrational

Failures

For me neelds lack of 'quality traits' was clearly

evident after 5 rounds into 2012.

Unfortunately, he is supported by members that have the character traits that I have outlined above.

How people can accept our current situation and preach for unity and maintaining the status quo, is truly incomprehensible to me.

Let's start to call a spade a spade. Neelds got to go, so does the board and president. We need new leadership, and I'm not talkin players.

[RalphiusMaximus 6,053]

By keeping neeld we prove to the world the following about MFC supporters;

We are patient

Optimistic

Easily led - Incidentally, I love how easily led applies to anyone who won't follow you.

Easily fooled

Inflexible

Stubborn

Arrogant

Delusional

Irrational

Failures

For me neelds lack of 'quality traits' was clearly

evident after 5 rounds into 2012.

Unfortunately, he is supported by members that have the character traits that I have outlined above.

How people can accept our current situation and preach for unity and maintaining the status quo, is truly incomprehensible to me.

Let's start to call a spade a spade. Neelds got to go, so does the board and president. We need new leadership, and I'm not talkin players.

As opposed to sacking him and proving that we are:

Credulous

Fickle

Impatient

Gullible

Easily led

Lacking integrity

Lacking focus

Lacking unity

Irresolute

Neeld has done exactly what he promised us he would do. He has pruned the diseased limbs, now we need to give the tree time to grow. The knee-jerk alarmists who want to sack anotehr coach with the job half done need to chill out and wait to see what the finished product looks like. Seriously, after 50 years without a flag, is 1 more going to make that much of a difference to you? It's a gamble I am more than willing to take.

[Pates 9,660]

By keeping neeld we prove to the world the following about MFC supporters;

We are patient

Optimistic

Ironic that you put those two in your post because we will have to be exactly that for the next coach.

We will also have to have faith in the clubs decision (aka easily lead), staunch in our approach (stubborn), and have high expectations (possibly delusional).

I guess what I'm saying is tomato/tomato.

[deanox 9,922]

You're delusional. Neeld is the problem

You've just proven my point. You have decided Neeld is the problem based on what you see on tv and you resort to name calling because you are unable to have a rational discussion or actually discuss why you feel that way.

I understand the arguments for keeping Neeld. My opinion is that we probably need to move him on because I think when a group is so demoralised it will be difficult to ever get that confidence back. I'm not sure when he should move on, but I do have faith that Peter Jackson will make the correct decision at the correct time. But I'm not willing to make outrageous claims about issues I have no idea about such as players hating him, without any knowledge. And I think that if someone who works there full time hasn't decided to sack Neeld in a full month, there could be no reason why anyone on this forum would know better.

And no-one here had that knowledge , which is why instead off having a discussion people resort to name calling.

You wouldn't have these sorts of conversations at work, you'd get sacked for bullying, so why talk to people like that online? Try having a reasonable discussion, it will get you further.

Edited May 30, 2013 by deanox

[Adam The God 30,259]

Listening to that speech, it seems clear that Neeld was always aware it would take time for the team to become the "hardest team to play against" though some people expected it to happen straight away.

It's amazing that I think Neeld's attitude and messages have remained pretty consistent along the journey, yet those listening to the message have changed the way they receive it over a period of 18 months........

Leads me to question who really has the problem.

With respect, that's rubbish. I think the vast majority of the supporter base, myself included, wrote off last year and afforded Neeld some time to see who would form part of his future plans. Who displayed defensive work-rates and who didn't etc. That was reasonable. It was disappointing only winning four games, but it was a season for experiment and enacting Neeld's game plan.

When the 2013 season rolled around many of us were not expecting finals, but we were looking for any sign of improvement. Instead, the work rate and skills for the entire year (save one quarter against GWS) have been reminiscent of 186. Over and over again. I was there on that fateful day in Geelong and I've attended every game in Victoria this year. It's comparable. Bailey rightly lost his job over that game. Neeld should have lost his job 6 or 7 times over this season. The only reason he hasn't is that we're waiting on PJ's report.

If you watch Neeld's press conferences this year, they are markedly different from last. He continually focuses on experience and mere competitiveness, never simply on winning. Neeld is the coaching problem. I think the drafting under him has been pretty solid, although it's still tough to call some of them. His problem is he's not a senior coach at AFL level. As simple as that. Get rid of him.

[Adam The God 30,259]

Interesting that we'll give a new player with no prior experience at AFL several years to acclimatise to the intensity, demands and performance level required in the AFL. But upon recruiting a new senior coach with no senior coaching experience we expect him to faultlessly and rapidly regenerate the playing list and improve the performance in less than 18 months.

If you hire a person who hasn't done that job at that level before you need to include an allowance (time and support) for the fact that they will make mistakes, learn and the performance of the team won't follow a predictable straight line graph ("incremental improvement").

On the upside, you might hire someone who, when they hit their strides and have had time to craft and drill the team that they have selected, might win you a flag.

I still believe Mark Neeld could be this person. I have less faith in the MFC to stick with ANY decision and plan they've made when events go against us and the media circus cranks up against us... and that's what makes us a weak club.

Paul, no one is expecting faultless and rapid regeneration of the playing list. We are demanding that the coach extract AFL standard work rate from the players though. He hasn't. He continually says the pressure on coaches comes with the territory and he's right. When a coach is failing monumentally across the board, you cannot compare that to a player. In fact, you can't really compare what a coach does with a player at all.

Yes, the players should take some responsibility in all of this, but ultimately, if Neeld can't get them playing, he is the one that should be sacked. If we had a player of Neeld's ability on our list he'd never get a game again.