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My thoughts of where we are


beelzebub

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My thoughts in a lot less words:

Until we can find players who can:

- hit targets

- run and spread

- tackle effectively

- pick up their man when we don't have the ball

then we will remain useless and unwatchable

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My thoughts in a lot less words:

Until we can find players who can:

- hit targets

- run and spread

- tackle effectively

- pick up their man when we don't have the ball

then we will remain useless and unwatchable

Would add one more, "choose the right option"

It was infuriating to watch us coming out of defence or through the wing and the proceed to kick it to a 50:50 contest and/or handball to a stationary target with players hot on their heels, rather than an open player who had worked hard into space. We keep those possessions and we will create further inside 50's and potential scoring opportunities. Instead, we see turnovers that result in opposition loose men burning us on the rebound.

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Here is list comparing our 100+ gamers to the next worse Victorian team in the Bulldogs and also some highly rated opposition.

Demons Bulldogs Magpies Hawks Cats Swans

Rodan 179 Giansiracusa 234 Johnson 235 Guerra 241 Corey 259 Goodes 325

Davey 162 Murphy 233 Jolly 231 Burgoyne 227 Enright 250 Bolton 307

Sylvia 144 Boyd 210 Lynch 215 Mitchell 227 Chapman 247 O'Keefe 263

Jones 141 Cross 203 Didak 213 Hodge 210 Bartel 231 Mattner 221

Jamar 129 Cooney 188 Swan 202 Lake 199 Kelly 216 McVeigh 200

McDonald 123 Griffen 167 Ball 193 Hale 179 Johnson 200 Shaw 189

Byrnes 114 Morris 157 Maxwell 181 Lewis 175 Hunt 186 Richards 187

Frawley 107 Minson 142 Cloke 180 Sewell 172 Mackie 179 LRT 174

Dunn 101 Higgans 109 O'Brien 165 Franklin 167 Rivers 153 Malceski 132

Hudson 164 Osbourne 166 Selwood 141 Grundy 120

Shaw 158 Roughhead 165 Stokes 137 Jack 120

Thomas 156 Birchell 158 Taylor 118 McGlynn 110

Pendulbury 154 Gibson 130 MacIntosh 107 Tippit 104

Krakour 130 Rioli 111 Hawkins 106

Russell 121 Varcoe 104

Young 116 Lonergan 103

Toovey 114

My knowledge of other teams playing group is not as great as it is with the dees, but I'll have a guess at clubs best 22 makeup.

Demons: 9 players 100+ five, arguably six of these are best 22

Bulldogs: 9 players 100+ 8/9 best 22

Magpies: 17 players 100+ 12/17 comfortably best 22 with the rest being solid replacements

Hawks: 14 players 100+ 13/14 are best 22

Cats: 16 players 100+ 15/16 are best 22

Swants: 13 players 100+ 12/13 are best 22

Now here is a collection of random thoughts;

  • We have the fewest number of best 22 players with over 100 games experience.
  • Only Jones and Frawley can say that they put consistent games week in week out (I know Frawley hasn't had the best start to the year but he is a quality defender putting up with a barrage of inside 50's every single week). So we have a total of two players that we can safely rely on in a week to week basis to perform to a high standard. Compare that to the Magpies who have a dozen players with greater than 100 games experience who put in consistent high quality football.
  • Scarily, this is just looking at it from a quantitative perspective. I think we all know about the quality footballers with experience in the top opposition teams compared to the lack thereof in our own.
  • We are going to be in for a world of hurt for a lot longer unless we can trade in or win over some high quality free agents at the end of the season. We are in desperate need for on field leaders with experience.
  • With all due respect to Sylvia and Jones, it is an embarrassment to see them run out as our most experienced players on a weekly basis... they're 27 and 25 ffs.
  • Jack Trengove is our 13th most experienced player out of 45 listed players with 64 games at 21 years of age. Watts is our 16th most experienced with 59 games at 22years.
  • Our 22nd most experienced player is a 3rd year player with 25 games under his belt in Tom McDonald. Collingwood's 22nd most experienced is Nathan Brown with 74.
  • What I would give to acquire two or three free agents in Lenny Hayes, James Bartel, Sam Mitchell if only for a year or two.

Edit: Formatting

Nice summary

You've highlighted very well the gulf in experience which reflects our on field results.

I like everyone else here are bloody disappointed we are so poor but facts are we have a lot of development to do

Hoping the boys can get a bit of form up and win us a few games - otherwise it's going to be a very long year!

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I dont dislike the post but youve given Taggert and Kent passes, ones never played AFL and one has played 2.5 quarters. If theyre good enough players they'd be playing good AFL footy. sadly there's not much to be excited about!

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I dont dislike the post but youve given Taggert and Kent passes, ones never played AFL and one has played 2.5 quarters. If theyre good enough players they'd be playing good AFL footy. sadly there's not much to be excited about!

Kent will make it, on the basis that everyone calls out for speed, agression etc. and he is exactly that.

Taggert will get games later in the year so judge him then.

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A blind man shooting in a barrel will hit something.

Are you suggesting that alone qualifies the teams progress as successful ?

For almost everyone one that seems to be coming along to some degree I could offer you one that is regressing.

We chose an experimental gang as a fillip...yet not one played on the weekend .

We have scouts.... we have recruiters. we have some seriously flawed judgements that creep in amongst all of this. Weve picked a lot of guys over the recent journey who lack the fundamentals to be AFL level impact players. Little things like kicking to a position, or kickiing to benefit.

But hey some just kill it on the beep test. Some clubs are more aware of what makes a good FOOTBALLER not just an elite athlete. Im hoping Taylor brings some of this acumen.

BB, love your work & your dedication.

Bb59, with the best development of U-18 recruits, I'd have them in the VFL for a minimum of a half season of seniors prior to any AFL games only given on merit.

Please don't be too over eager to have our kids in the Ones, in the first few months... this is a part of why we have failed to bring on our young recruits over the decades...

Don't make yourself sick, because even tho it outwardly appears like we have gone backwards,,, & some are fearful that we are on death row; believe me, we are on the high road finally...

.... its just that we are down near the start of the Right Path, & we don't have to rebuild,,, we have to ReLearn.

We still need to add talent, but we have a lot.

Its the development that the Club has been an abject failure at for decades, & even some of our greats really had more left in them...

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Nice summary

You've highlighted very well the gulf in experience which reflects our on field results.

I like everyone else here are bloody disappointed we are so poor but facts are we have a lot of development to do

Hoping the boys can get a bit of form up and win us a few games - otherwise it's going to be a very long year!

Sorry I disagree. I think it is a bulltish argument.

Excuses to cover off poor performance. I don't expect young sides to win flags but I do expect them to run and run and run. and tackle. And to be able to see where the ball is coming down the field and run to an open space to receive it.

Our intensity, commitment is appalling. The speed with which we move the ball is terrible - that's not experience its just dumb football.

Other teams do it with young sides. We don't. The games excuse is a crutch for pathetic efforts. Bailey used it for 3 years and it creates a pizz poor culture of allowing players to put in less than is required.

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Here is list comparing our 100+ gamers to the next worse Victorian team in the Bulldogs and also some highly rated opposition.

Great - and equally, shocking - to see it laid out like that.

It's even more shocking if you take Rodan and Davey out of the list - they're no longer first 22, and will probably be gone at season's end.

Neeld keeps mentioning the "young list", and people here then respond with team x had x players under 50 games/teenagers etc. etc. But the "young list" part isn't about the "kids", or the new players, it's about the so-called experienced players. Our "senior" players are just so much less experienced than the equivalent players at established clubs, and that's where our "young list" is really hurting us.

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Guest rednblue4life

Nice summary

You've highlighted very well the gulf in experience which reflects our on field results.

I like everyone else here are bloody disappointed we are so poor but facts are we have a lot of development to do

Hoping the boys can get a bit of form up and win us a few games - otherwise it's going to be a very long year!

youve hit the nail on the head we are misding the experiance that junior, green, moloney and others could have given us while our list develops

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Our two most experienced players on our list were dropped to the VFL through lack of form last week, that really says it all doesn't it?

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Sorry I disagree. I think it is a bulltish argument.

Excuses to cover off poor performance. I don't expect young sides to win flags but I do expect them to run and run and run. and tackle. And to be able to see where the ball is coming down the field and run to an open space to receive it.

Our intensity, commitment is appalling. The speed with which we move the ball is terrible - that's not experience its just dumb football.

Other teams do it with young sides. We don't. The games excuse is a crutch for pathetic efforts. Bailey used it for 3 years and it creates a pizz poor culture of allowing players to put in less than is required.

Agree can't argue with that JMac. I haven't been happy with our performances I though the post I quoted highlighted our lack of leaders and experience

I would love a lot higher intensity, and a lot more tackling as well (love the hard tackling teams like Swans, Hawks etc thats how i'd love the dees to play) - but who drives that? Leaders - we don't have them JMac

I don't want to excuse the performance of the team, just highlighting reality

Nothing wrong with demanding performance

Edited by Unleash Hell
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It is very hard to watch ATM. It just seems that the coach has bitten off more than he can chew and instead of letting players use their skills he has them worried about their positioning on the field. Either way it is very hit and miss as we have all witnessed. Most of other that remember position footy such as myself see "unaccountable football" whilst other who can see more broadly see "poor spread".

I think that he have a nucleus of a team. I think comments around the poor disposal by the backline out of defence illustrate just how handy JW would have been last week? Midfield is weak. How to fix this?

1. Recruit A grade mid/s- who would come to MFC right now

2. Put our biggest bodies in their regardless of the result? By this I mean bring up magner and couch and just hammer the opposition.

3. Rotate our ball users in once the heat is off. To use a cricket term, put them in second change. Lets see if we can get them to run out games and lets see if the opposition is still keen to go in hard!

I am as dismayed as anyone at the lack of heart and effort but I believe that we need to start this fightback from the middle.

Our forward line is injured and our backline is under seige.

I am curious why the powers that be dont put JW in the middle? Has basketball backround, good vision and sure hands, surely he can find an outside runner by hand as he would in basketball? At this point I want to see players use their skills and forget about complex patterns. That stuff can develop but right now we are almost unwatchable as others have stated. I used to hate the sydney style of smothering the opposition but right now I would welcome it as we are slowly bleeding to death!

I am not one of the sack neeld brigade but I feel that some changes need to be made to "the plan" whatever that is.

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Liked your post B59...If anything I thought you were a tad easy on them. Still we have so many young players only time will tell, some players are guns from day 1 others take a while. I also was a Jack watts hopeful like many on here but now Im really having a lot of doubt.

Edited by Wadda We Sing
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I thought you said last week you were going to not support Melbourne (ok) and not be part of this forum any more.

Fair enough, then there seemed to be another post 10 minutes later reaffirming that commitment to not tread these hallowed halls any longer as it was all to shocking.

I may have missed where you reclaimed your spot in this shrinking universe of hair shirts but you seem to be not very sick.

Now You really carry on yet again.

I remember years ago where you said you had never been to a game at Docklands or any other away ground and asked what it was like.

I wish you would [censored] off.

I never went to Glenferrie; sad about that. Never seen us win at Docklands. Went to Kardinia Park once )lost}, went to Lake Oval a couple of times (lost), it ain't nice out in the Badlands.

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Here is list comparing our 100+ gamers to the next worse Victorian team in the Bulldogs and also some highly rated opposition.

Demons Bulldogs Magpies Hawks Cats Swans

Rodan 179 Giansiracusa 234 Johnson 235 Guerra 241 Corey 259 Goodes 325

Davey 162 Murphy 233 Jolly 231 Burgoyne 227 Enright 250 Bolton 307

Sylvia 144 Boyd 210 Lynch 215 Mitchell 227 Chapman 247 O'Keefe 263

Jones 141 Cross 203 Didak 213 Hodge 210 Bartel 231 Mattner 221

Jamar 129 Cooney 188 Swan 202 Lake 199 Kelly 216 McVeigh 200

McDonald 123 Griffen 167 Ball 193 Hale 179 Johnson 200 Shaw 189

Byrnes 114 Morris 157 Maxwell 181 Lewis 175 Hunt 186 Richards 187

Frawley 107 Minson 142 Cloke 180 Sewell 172 Mackie 179 LRT 174

Dunn 101 Higgans 109 O'Brien 165 Franklin 167 Rivers 153 Malceski 132

Hudson 164 Osbourne 166 Selwood 141 Grundy 120

Shaw 158 Roughhead 165 Stokes 137 Jack 120

Thomas 156 Birchell 158 Taylor 118 McGlynn 110

Pendulbury 154 Gibson 130 MacIntosh 107 Tippit 104

Krakour 130 Rioli 111 Hawkins 106

Russell 121 Varcoe 104

Young 116 Lonergan 103

Toovey 114

My knowledge of other teams playing group is not as great as it is with the dees, but I'll have a guess at clubs best 22 makeup.

Demons: 9 players 100+ five, arguably six of these are best 22

Bulldogs: 9 players 100+ 8/9 best 22

Magpies: 17 players 100+ 12/17 comfortably best 22 with the rest being solid replacements

Hawks: 14 players 100+ 13/14 are best 22

Cats: 16 players 100+ 15/16 are best 22

Swants: 13 players 100+ 12/13 are best 22

Now here is a collection of random thoughts;

  • We have the fewest number of best 22 players with over 100 games experience.
  • Only Jones and Frawley can say that they put consistent games week in week out (I know Frawley hasn't had the best start to the year but he is a quality defender putting up with a barrage of inside 50's every single week). So we have a total of two players that we can safely rely on in a week to week basis to perform to a high standard. Compare that to the Magpies who have a dozen players with greater than 100 games experience who put in consistent high quality football.
  • Scarily, this is just looking at it from a quantitative perspective. I think we all know about the quality footballers with experience in the top opposition teams compared to the lack thereof in our own.
  • We are going to be in for a world of hurt for a lot longer unless we can trade in or win over some high quality free agents at the end of the season. We are in desperate need for on field leaders with experience.
  • With all due respect to Sylvia and Jones, it is an embarrassment to see them run out as our most experienced players on a weekly basis... they're 27 and 25 ffs.
  • Jack Trengove is our 13th most experienced player out of 45 listed players with 64 games at 21 years of age. Watts is our 16th most experienced with 59 games at 22years.
  • Our 22nd most experienced player is a 3rd year player with 25 games under his belt in Tom McDonald. Collingwood's 22nd most experienced is Nathan Brown with 74.
  • What I would give to acquire two or three free agents in Lenny Hayes, James Bartel, Sam Mitchell if only for a year or two.

Edit: Formatting

Amazing post.. spot on, list hasnt played enough

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pick the +ve and -ve sentences, i will zig zag around in my comments like the boys do when they try to link up possessions.

The coach is like a conductor, if the players can't dance to his tune they fight as individuals, like we did on the w/e.

at the moment the players are too terrorised by fear of failure in everything they do. IF we started getting the pill a bit more and we had our best forwards in this would straighten us up - and our midfield would improve immediately. At present we have no avenue to goals so have to invent ways to score, opens us up to deadly turnovers.

Long time supporters are entitled to feel severely depressed, hence i understand belzebub's pain. i got a letter from the membership manager, "hey, i see you have been a member for nine years straight, we are doing our best etc pls re-join. i have written a reply in my head several times but just can't see the point in replying yet. i will rejoin but won't drive four hours round trip to wreck my weekend. the scary thing is, teams like swans and geelong aren't getting worse, they are defying gravity because they have worked out the system of how to maintain playing lists in the era of drafts. a pick in the 30's or 40's becomes gold for these teams whereas our boys are weighed down by falsely high draft ratings. swans are bankrolled by the afl with their extra pocket money (read kurt tippett), whilst geelong can invite a micr0-crowd to fill their stadium and make squillions.

finally, other teams are down in the mire, we are not all on our own. my tip is that footscray and gws are going to struggle for quite a while too, and will soon feel more heat from the football commentariat.

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59, the only thing I'd like to add to your evaluation of the list is with regards to the apparent lack of development. I compare it to that of other clubs, mainly the successful ones. Young blokes that come in and play for the Cats, Pies, Bombers or Blues seem to find a groove within a season or two whereas our blokes are still treading water four years in!

It all comes back to the culture debate. We don't have one except for the obvious one of poor performance supported by an apparent history of indolence across a fair group of senior players.

I have serious doubts about the coach and wouldn't be too fazed if he walked tomorrow. I do however appreciate the high standards he's setting with regards to training and game preparation but even that is wearing thin give the results we've been subjected to.

Sometimes I wonder if the players are just too absorbed in all of the 'elite' jargon Neeld spews forth that they have forgotten that end game is actually keeping the ball off the opposition on game day.

Skills are woeful and the team is in dire need of bolstering our resources on that front or restructuring the current FD to support that need for improvement.

Overall I think your individual assessments were pretty good. Pleased with a few, hopeful of a few more and downright appalled with others.

Lets hope that the team is still 'gelling' and the game plan evolving.

ATM, there's next to no desire to even watch our mob but in the end you end up doing it, hoping that the switch will flick one day and the Dee's will bounce back.

As an aside, I was flying up to Kununurra last week, listening to some tunes during cruise when Ozzy Osbourne's "No more tears" started to play. Great track for those unfamiliar with Zakk Wylde doing a splendid job on guitar. It was the lyrics (actually spoken words within the song) that caused me to have good hearty chuckle as it reminded me exactly how I feel about this club.

"Going forward in reverse."

Edited by McQueen
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Very good summary I reckon.

Re your Tom Mac call, Riv was actually one of our better kicks so it's mildly insulting to liken TMac's disposal to his. He's a big loss Rivers. R.I.P.

I've said this before though, it's so bloody annoying that our guys who can go have the worst skills, and the ones with the best skills can't go. Get those two things together and you've got yourself a good footballer.

God we suck.

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I never went to Glenferrie; sad about that. Never seen us win at Docklands. Went to Kardinia Park once )lost}, went to Lake Oval a couple of times (lost), it ain't nice out in the Badlands.

Mate of mine was playing Barassi (just closed) and Saturday night I went into Arts centre and wore the new scarff(its good isnt it?) on the train from Burbs with the Cats and Tigers filling the trains.

Nearly took it off, as like many, I dont get jokes anymore and I worry for my teeth and sanity. But I wore it. Just. Go to Geelong they always have cockatoos flying over just as you roll your eyes.

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Very good summary I reckon.

Re your Tom Mac call, Riv was actually one of our better kicks so it's mildly insulting to liken TMac's disposal to his. He's a big loss Rivers. R.I.P.

I've said this before though, it's so bloody annoying that our guys who can go have the worst skills, and the ones with the best skills can't go. Get those two things together and you've got yourself a good footballer.

God we suck.

Rivers disposal i beg to differ was often very iffy. It could fall short resulting in team mate pressure or a turnover. Strangely set shots weren't too bad.

his abililty to read a ball was extremely good and often chose the age ol belt to the boundary.

My opinion I grant you.

Edited by belzebub59
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Mate of mine was playing Barassi (just closed) and Saturday night I went into Arts centre and wore the new scarff(its good isnt it?) on the train from Burbs with the Cats and Tigers filling the trains.

Nearly took it off, as like many, I dont get jokes anymore and I worry for my teeth and sanity. But I wore it. Just. Go to Geelong they always have cockatoos flying over just as you roll your eyes.

Your mate was playing Barassi! Hope that show plays again, was thinking of going up to see it. Funny how the red n's blue colours have become tainted and you feel like people r going to laugh. It takes a Lot to kill a supporter. Ron you have a lot to answer for.

Ed: sp.

Edited by bush demon
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