Oliver Wines

[Hannibal 5,814]

You can see from our list though we desperately need outside class more than inside grunt.

True, but how much outside class does Sydney have ?

The Hawks have Smith and Savage, who was border-line, but how many more ?

The Dees will have Blease and hopefully Barry, but I don't reckon teams can carry too much outside class and win finals. When Geelong were at their best the ball moved liked lightening, but they weren't overly quick. Leg speed or quality contested ball winners ?

Good inside mids spread well anyway. I agree we need leg speed, but I'd rather a contested ball winner first and foremost.

[Lord Travis 10,265]

Sydney have Jetta, who kicked 45 goals from the midfield! Jack, Mcveigh and Kennedy all chimed in with 20 something each as well.

Jetta, Jack and Mcveigh are all super dangerous whenever they get the ball in the forward half due to their skill, pace and agility. You just know if one of them gets the ball that a scoring opportunity is all but guaranteed. We have no player other than Blease who looks like he could hit the scoreboard or hit up targets cleanly on a consistent basis. Jones is good at hitting the scoreboard, but his field kicking isn't elite. I don't hold too much hope for Barry as he was rated as a third rounder, so is speculative at this stage. I just feel like the main thing we lack, and have lacked for years now, is good kicking skills in the side. We can get heaps of the ball, but if we don't have good kicking skills then it's just going to lead to lots of turnovers. All the best sides of recent years, Hawthorn, Geelong, Sydney, Collingwood, all have god footskills and create chains of uncontested play due to this.

There needs to be a balance, and IMO we are overstocking inside at the expense of outside at this stage.

[rpfc 27,633]

Outside class is only revealed as the grunt that get them the footy allow them to flourish.

Go and get the footy. Get the footy out of the middle and then worry about the skills on the other end.

We need mids who win the football.

It's as simple as that.

[jnrmac 19,312]

Sydney have Jetta, who kicked 45 goals from the midfield!

Wow 45 goals is a super performance...

[H_T 2,941]

Holy sh*t let it go guys!

How about we talk about Oliver Wines in the Oliver Wines thread?

Let's ....and seeing as I haven't had a response to my question, I will have one more attempt.

You recently said you don't agree with picking Wines at pick 4:

I think he's a certainty to get picked up by us now, although I don't agree with it. We'll certainly be well stocked for inside mids next year and going forward. We desperately need some outside spread and skill now.

Yet.......:

I think it'd be a good move to draft this kid at 4. Wines and an outside mid with pace would be top priority. Having Wines and Viney would give us one of the hardest aggressive midfields in a few years .....

So, why don't you agree now??

[Lord Travis 10,265]

So, why don't you agree now??

When I posted that we had picks 3,4 and 13. I would've loved Wines, one of Toumpas or O'Rourke, and another quality player such as Menzel, Mayes or Kennedy at 13.

Since that point in time we now only have pick 4. I look at who we've brought onto our list, who remains on our list, and I see the slowest and least skillful list in the league. We'll be fine winning ball. Our clear deficiency is our footskills and ability to spread and control the footy. Wines won't really help this. Toumpas, O'Rourke, or Macrae would. That's why I'd prefer we get an all-rounder with kicking skills like Toumpas or O'Rourke, or an outsider like Macrae.

That's just my opinion as someone who watches too much football and is sick of us losing!

Edited November 14, 2012 by Lord Travis

[beelzebub 22,297]

insert " ....... "

chose : meh, groan, facepalm-image, wtf..or own-selection !! lol

[H_T 2,941]

When I posted that we had picks 3,4 and 13. I would've loved Wines, one of Toumpas or O'Rourke, and another quality player such as Menzel, Mayes or Kennedy at 13.

Since that point in time we now only have pick 4. I look at who we've brought onto our list, who remains on our list, and I see the slowest and least skillful list in the league. We'll be fine winning ball. Our clear deficiency is our footskills and ability to spread and control the footy. Wines won't really help this. Toumpas, O'Rourke, or Macrae would. That's why I'd prefer we get an all-rounder with kicking skills like Toumpas or O'Rourke, or an outsider like Macrae.

That's just my opinion as someone who watches too much football and is sick of us losing!

I just find it a little puzzling that you think "We'll be fine winning the ball" and that we're ok for inside mids.

Whilst you have a point about outside run and/or kicking skills as a need - and I acknoweledge that - you have to get it out to them first. We must remember that Jack is not just an inside mid, he can be creative on the outside as well.

At the moment in terms of quality players we have from the current list, I would only speak of Jones in glowing terms if we're talking about (dare I say it) top 50 in the League or 'A' graders. But that's only based on 2011 output.

In order to become a more efficient midfield, a stronger midfield who can get their hands on the pill first who are creative with strong attitude and help compliment any outside run, we need sharp inside mids.

You say our clear deficiency is our footskills and our ability to spread and control the footy. That's true, but so is our ability to beat opposition in the middle.

[rpfc 27,633]

That's just my opinion as someone who watches too much football and is sick of us losing!

Aren't we all.

But the fact remains that winning the football is the first step to finding outside class.

How would we know if there is outside class on the list? We never have the ball in space.

Get a core group of inside mids who can find their own footy and the hardest battle is won.

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

True, but how much outside class does Sydney have ?

The Hawks have Smith and Savage, who was border-line, but how many more ?

The Dees will have Blease and hopefully Barry, but I don't reckon teams can carry too much outside class and win finals. When Geelong were at their best the ball moved liked lightening, but they weren't overly quick. Leg speed or quality contested ball winners ?

Good inside mids spread well anyway. I agree we need leg speed, but I'd rather a contested ball winner first and foremost.

You keep failing to mention the fact that Hawthorn's inside mids can all use the ball extremely well. Wines doesn't have kicking skills like Mitchell, Lewis or Hodge. All of whom play that inside mid role.

Same with Sydney to a lesser extent. When it comes to our list, we have lots of players who can win the ball in close, but they can't use it nearly as well as the mids from the two teams you've mentioned.

Not only is it that we have a lack of quality kickers, our midfield has also looked bad especially in the Bailey era because of a lack of structure, defensive mindset, spread etc etc. Next year with a more organised group having learnt the basics after year one, it will be interesting to see how our mids go and give us more of an indication of what it is we 'need'.

[Lord Travis 10,265]

I just find it a little puzzling that you think "We'll be fine winning the ball" and that we're ok for inside mids.

I was wrong, that's why haha! Just had a look at the stats and we were dead last in clearances for the year. For some reason I had it in my head that like 2011 we were towards the middle of the table in the clearances. Very surprising to see the team go that far backwards in clearances under Neeld. When watching this year it felt like we got more first dibs on the ball, but it was a lot of bang it in hope. That being the case, Wines will be the perfect selection, and the likely one.

I still feel we definitely need an injection of good kicking skills into the team though. Our kicking skills are abysmal!

On a side note, in Daniher's last full year as coach in 2006 we were 3rd for clearances. I miss watching that team

Edited November 14, 2012 by Lord Travis

[timD 994]

You keep failing to mention the fact that Hawthorn's inside mids can all use the ball extremely well. Wines doesn't have kicking skills like Mitchell, Lewis or Hodge. All of whom play that inside mid role.

Same with Sydney to a lesser extent. When it comes to our list, we have lots of players who can win the ball in close, but they can't use it nearly as well as the mids from the two teams you've mentioned.

Not only is it that we have a lack of quality kickers, our midfield has also looked bad especially in the Bailey era because of a lack of structure, defensive mindset, spread etc etc. Next year with a more organised group having learnt the basics after year one, it will be interesting to see how our mids go and give us more of an indication of what it is we 'need'.

'All' meaning Sewell too? And "keep failing"? Really?

Hodge is good. Lewis is a good user without being excellent or great. Mitchell is excellent but normally over short distances only. You've missed Sewell who is their most consistent performer other than Mitchell. The others? Xavier Ellis? Isaac Smith? Really?

Give it a rest captain sanctimony. Your pulpit in front of the mirror is geting lonely.

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

'All' meaning Sewell too? And "keep failing"? Really?

Hodge is good. Lewis is a good user without being excellent or great. Mitchell is excellent but normally over short distances only. You've missed Sewell who is their most consistent performer other than Mitchell. The others? Xavier Ellis? Isaac Smith? Really?

Give it a rest captain sanctimony. Your pulpit in front of the mirror is geting lonely.

You're an angry guy Tim. I'm sorry.

I said he keeps failing to mention the skill of Hawthorn's mids. I'm sorry I didn't isolate Sewell. Even though he seems to be just as effective as Magner, Couch, McKenzie, Bate (last year) for us.

Hodge is good? Is that a joke?

Lewis and Mitchell are head and shoulders above our mids when it comes to using the pill.

I would say Ellis is on par with the the players I mentioned above

Smith is an outside runner you goose

You have a personal issue with my posts Tim. Why don't we chat about it some place else?

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

And I apologise to BH for saying 'all' Hawthorns mids can use the ball extremely well. Three of their four starting mids can use the ball extremely well. The others are still as good or better than most of ours.

[olisik 4,060]

Wines comes off to me as a similar player to Tynan to a degree.

Does anyone else see it?

For that reason I would prefer O Rourke (Not because I think Tynan is bad but because I think he could develop into a Wines type player himself)

Edited November 14, 2012 by olisik

[rpfc 27,633]

Wines comes off to me as a similar player to Tynan to a degree.

Does anyone else see it?

Yes, they both have hair and bi-pedal function and play football.

Tynan was a ND50+ pick and isn't talked about the way one talks about a top 5 pick.

[Og Seed 3]

Drawing a long bow there olisik but I get what you mean. The major difference between the two though is that they play in different positions.

IMO we have to get Wines. Fits the mould in which we want to play. Easy decision.

[olisik 4,060]

Yes, they both have hair and bi-pedal function and play football.

Tynan was a ND50+ pick and isn't talked about the way one talks about a top 5 pick.

Pick number aside.

They are both ferocious players who are similar weight/height. They both tackle aggressively and are good overhead with moderate disposal skills.

As Og Seed said, it is a long bow but I think Tynan is heavily under rated on this forum. Even as a forward he would be quite damaging I think.

We did get him for a bargain apparently at a pick around 50, he was expected to go in the 30's. Howe went in the 30's.

Edited November 14, 2012 by olisik

[King Kunta 97]

True, but how much outside class does Sydney have ?

The Hawks have Smith and Savage, who was border-line, but how many more ?

The Dees will have Blease and hopefully Barry, but I don't reckon teams can carry too much outside class and win finals. When Geelong were at their best the ball moved liked lightening, but they weren't overly quick. Leg speed or quality contested ball winners ?

Good inside mids spread well anyway. I agree we need leg speed, but I'd rather a contested ball winner first and foremost.

Hawthorn and Sydney had most of their run from their halfbacks rather than rely on midfielders to run and carry, Birchall, Suckling, Malceski, Shaw. Quality teams use these players as the outside run as opposed to their midfield. At the moment the Demons are lacking in this area, with Watts and Nicholson probably the only two candidates but both have respective deficiencies. Still I would rather target ball winners than carriers for the Demons midfield.

[DemonWA 3,521]

Our mids will took alot better having a decent forward line to kick into. How many 'kick and hope' long bombs from ~80m out will look like good decisions with Dawes & Clark snapping them up and kicking truely?

Quality mids find a way to excel inside and out. As other have said, Judd, Ablett, Selwood, Kerr - they win their own ball and hurt you on the outside if need be too.

If Wines naturally find the ball, then we need him. how many players on our list would you think could regularly get 30 disposals? Maybe Jones, thats it

[mitch 127]

Does anyone know where we can watch a full game of Wines play?

[Dr. Gonzo 22,599]

Outside class is only revealed as the grunt that get them the footy allow them to flourish.

Go and get the footy. Get the footy out of the middle and then worry about the skills on the other end.

We need mids who win the football.

It's as simple as that.

I agree, but then again that's what I thought when we drafted McLean, Sylvia & Moloney. I still hope we get Wines but it seems our recruitment goes round in circles constantly trying to catch our tail. After Brisbane dominated we tried to bulk up our midfield. After that we were too slow so tried to recruit "skilled athletes" (debatable how skilled or athletic they were) - now with our list being too skinny and outside we are going back the other way getting in Viney & (probably) Wines to go with Jones. I'm not saying I don't want Wines, and if we got O'Rourke I'd be thinking "here we go another Morton" - I guess I'm just too jaded by our prior drafting and will wait with baited breath to see how it actually turns out.

[Demonsterative 2,100]

I agree, but then again that's what I thought when we drafted McLean, Sylvia & Moloney. I still hope we get Wines but it seems our recruitment goes round in circles constantly trying to catch our tail. After Brisbane dominated we tried to bulk up our midfield. After that we were too slow so tried to recruit "skilled athletes" (debatable how skilled or athletic they were) - now with our list being too skinny and outside we are going back the other way getting in Viney & (probably) Wines to go with Jones. I'm not saying I don't want Wines, and if we got O'Rourke I'd be thinking "here we go another Morton" - I guess I'm just too jaded by our prior drafting and will wait with baited breath to see how it actually turns out.

Totally agree Dr. The club has been a trend follower rather than a trend setter and its recruiting has been some what schizophrenic. It changes with recruiting coaches who have totally different perspectives thus the recruiters changing tact within 3 years. Morton, Gysberts, Bate, Dunn, etc have been victims of the clubs lack of consistency.

Experts always talk about how game plans and game styles tend to change regularly throughout a season, this being the new trend. I think the club struggles with developing talent who are versatile, yet having players who can settle into a role. Dunn, Bate, Watts are examples of this. Dunn was recruited as a KPF, played 3rd tall in the forward line, then midfielder/tagger and is now a backman. No wonder he has yet to fulfill potential or settle as a player. It seems that Dunn has benefitted from the club going full circle being a big strong big body.

I can only hope Need and co are doing the right thing and i believe in their direction. But I'm sceptical at the same time as believed in Bailey/Pendergrast and in Daniher/Cameron. If Neeld fails the club needs to have the conviction to employ another coach in the same vain as Neeld to build on this direction. I'm hoping that Neeld is the messiah though

[old55 21,620]

You're an angry guy Tim. I'm sorry.

I said he keeps failing to mention the skill of Hawthorn's mids. I'm sorry I didn't isolate Sewell. Even though he seems to be just as effective as Magner, Couch, McKenzie, Bate (last year) for us.

Hodge is good? Is that a joke?

Lewis and Mitchell are head and shoulders above our mids when it comes to using the pill.

I would say Ellis is on par with the the players I mentioned above

Smith is an outside runner you goose

You have a personal issue with my posts Tim. Why don't we chat about it some place else?

I don't think Hodge is a starting mid any more.

[Matt Demon 1,388]

Does anyone know where we can watch a full game of Wines play?

Yeah on my IQ at home, I've still got all the National Champs recorded but that probably doesn't help you much.