Recruiting or Development.

[Carlos Danger 380]

Can we clear 18 in one year?

I wouldn't put a number on it (it's only round 2) but enough to make a substantial difference.

It's all about getting the foundation right, the super-draft and cheap mature-age-recruits is the best chance of doing that.

Give it a year or two, see how the new and existing personnel perform then work out where the high dollars should be spent in free agency and at the trade table.

Edited April 7, 2012 by Deez Nutz

[Gooner 9]

I'm sick of this argument. We've been through this a hundred times on Demonland before. Only a couple of other clubs were outright looking for a KPF after the Gold Coast snatched Tom Lynch at pick 11 ... us and Carlton and one other who I can't recall. We went for Lucas Cook instead of Jack Darling who is already a gun and don't give me a crap about him only being good because he's in a good side. WE STUFFED IT UP!!!!!!!!!!!!

You're comparing a player who was a ready made AFL player as a junior with a young developing player. I'm not saying that our recruiting is perfect by any means, but there were plenty of other clubs who could have picked Darling if they were looking for the best available and chose not to.

Anyway, two years ago, we needed a full forward, which is what Cook will hopefully turn out to be. Darling was thought to be more of a second tall than a full forward and didn't fit into our structure.

Perhaps the problem was chasing a full forward when we should have been going for the best available, but I don't think we were the only team that overlooked Darling.

[rpfc 27,476]

Look, it's development of our recruits that is troubling, but...

It is still a red herring in terms of explaining our current plight as the best teams of today are not those formed from 2007-2011 (the drafts we worry we didn't do so well in).

Geelong: Corey, Chapman, Enright (99), Bartel, and Johnson (01).

Hawthorn: Hodge, Mitchell (01), Sewell (02), Roughhead, Franklin, and Lewis (04).

Collingwood: Ball (01), Jolly, Maxwell (02), Shaw(03), Cloke (04), Pendlebury, and Thomas (05).

We have Green, Jamar, Rivers, Davey, Sylvia, Bate, Dunn, Jones, and Batram from 1999 to 2004. These are the drafts we are paying for, and/or the development we didn't get right.

[Sir Why You Little 34,493]

Free agency might actually help sides like us, contrary to the belief of people like WYL.

I am not against Free Agency at all. But the MFC are making it very difficult for themselves with these absolutely hearless performances.

I still back the new coach though. We must do that.

[Sir Why You Little 34,493]

Development.

It's too easy to blame recruiters. I have said this many times before: I will not stand here and blame recruiters for poor players if there is no evidence to suggest they did something to draft a player that was out of the blue, unexpected, or against the knowledge.

Morton is a dud. But in 2007, he was considered a clear top 5 pick.

Right now, Naitanui is better than Watts. But in 2008, there was no doubt in anyone's minds that Watts was a top 2 pick.

Watts is not even close to being able to be classed as a failure. Too many people have no idea what they're talking about when they talk about Watts.

Sure, we could have taken Darling over Cook. But we don't know what Cook will be like. Sure, we could have taken Hurley over Watts. But if that decision was so obvious, why didn't Hurley's name ever pop up in the discussions of who to take?

Fact is, whilst recruiters should be best placed to know who will work at AFL and who will not, if there is a groundswell of support from all the clubs saying that a decision is valid, then I'll take it. And I'll place blame for subsequent poor performances on the player, for not adapting, and the coaches (mainly), for not doing a good enough job.

The general ideas here are correct. Development is a problem. Impatience is also a problem (e.g. Watts, Cook).

But there has to come a point where we stop saying 'give it time, it will work'. There is only so much 'time' we can give coaches and players.

Fact is, we've had a lot of these players for 3-5 years. By now, we should be seeing so much more improvement than we are. Moreover, we are seeing similar mistakes which are rectifiable regardless of how well we're implementing the game plan. The non-negotiables - tackling, chasing, looking like you give a s--t. If we lose repeatedly but we look like we're trying, then we can pull out the 'time' card.

TU i agree with a lot of your words here BUT too much recruiting was done for the distant future & not enough for the now. After the debt was cleared the list had to rise, slowly but steady. It has truly stagnated and we cannot afford that luxury.

Yes we needed kids in the draft, but we took too many babies considering our leadership was B Grade.

Neeld knew it immediately hence Magner.

Edited April 7, 2012 by why you little

[titan_uranus 22,365]

Look, it's development of our recruits that is troubling, but...

It is still a red herring in terms of explaining our current plight as the best teams of today are not those formed from 2007-2011 (the drafts we worry we didn't do so well in).

Geelong: Corey, Chapman, Enright (99), Bartel, and Johnson (01).

Hawthorn: Hodge, Mitchell (01), Sewell (02), Roughhead, Franklin, and Lewis (04).

Collingwood: Ball (01), Jolly, Maxwell (02), Shaw(03), Cloke (04), Pendlebury, and Thomas (05).

We have Green, Jamar, Rivers, Davey, Sylvia, Bate, Dunn, Jones, and Batram from 1999 to 2004. These are the drafts we are paying for, and/or the development we didn't get right.

Also true.

In the end, though, I feel the majority of the problem comes down to how we've developed/dealt with our players since they've been on our list, more than it has been the actual players we've brought on.

We've seen Green, Davey, Jones, Bartram, and even Bate and Dunn play some decent football. Most of it was at the start of their careers. But they haven't kicked on like they should have. Jones, Bartram, Bate and Dunn have not gone very far since their debut years. Davey's best football was in his first 3 years, not his last 3-4.

[trout 385]

Look, it's development of our recruits that is troubling, but...

It is still a red herring in terms of explaining our current plight as the best teams of today are not those formed from 2007-2011 (the drafts we worry we didn't do so well in).

Geelong: Corey, Chapman, Enright (99), Bartel, and Johnson (01).

Hawthorn: Hodge, Mitchell (01), Sewell (02), Roughhead, Franklin, and Lewis (04).

Collingwood: Ball (01), Jolly, Maxwell (02), Shaw(03), Cloke (04), Pendlebury, and Thomas (05).

We have Green, Jamar, Rivers, Davey, Sylvia, Bate, Dunn, Jones, and Batram from 1999 to 2004. These are the drafts we are paying for, and/or the development we didn't get right.

Spot on, the 2001 Hodge, Ball and Judd superdraft we picked up Luke Molan, Steven Armstrong, Aaron Rogers and Brad Miller. Any of the following players could be playing for us Brent Reilly, Nick Dal Santo, James Kelly, Jason Gram, Steve Johnson, Sam Mitchell, Leigh Montagna, Jarrad Waite, Dane Swan or Brian Lake now that hurts.

The 2002 draft was no where near as strong but we still missed out on some quality players. We picked up Daniel Bell, Nick Smith, Jarad Rivers, Gary Moorcroft, Cam Hunter and Ryan Ferguson. Players who could be playing for us include Kade Simpson, Adam Selwood, Ryan Crowley, Nic Malceski or Daniel Merett. I know I would love Kade Simpson in our midfield at the moment.

[Knuckles 73]

I agree it has to do with both. But I think our player development and culture are the major issues.

Recruiting-

At this point it looks as though picking up Cook was a major blunder. Other then that I can't seen any glaring mistakes. How could anyone have foreseen the Scully situation and Martin was clearly ranked third by all recruiters in that draft anyway. As for Watts, again he was rated as the number one in his draft by most of the so called experts and there was no controversy at the time we drafted him. I firmly believe his career will ultimately surpass Naitanui

Development-

I look at our list and think back to when a lot of these players came on the scene showing plenty and have gone backwards.

Gysberts- The perfect example came out in his first four or five games looked like a star, but has struggled with injury and form ever since.

Trengove- Has pretty much stayed at the same level sine arriving. Luckily this a pretty good level.

Tapscott- Looked great early last year. Then fell away as the year progressed. Remains to be seen how he comes back this year.

Howe- Had everyone excited throughout last season. Looks to have fallen away this year rather than going to a new level.

Garland- I'm not going to mark him too harshly. But his game doesn't seem to have improved over the past 2 years.

Blease- Was looking good at the end of last year. Now is battling to make the team and doesn't seem to have a position.

Morton- The whole of the AFL thought we had picked up a gun when drafted. Played reasonably early, but his form has slipped away year by year.

Watts- Again everything I read leading up to the draft had him number one. Mismanaged on his debut. Has showed plenty at times, but not consistently. Should be making his mark on games consistently by now.

Bennell- Has had some reasonable games early. Will be lucky to be around next year. Has not progressed at all since being at the club.

McKenzie- Showed plenty of energy early and was impacting games. Skills are still poor and doesn't seem to have expanded his capabilities at all.

I don't really like to single players out but I want to illustrate by thoughts that very few if any MFC players have improved over the past 3 - 4 years. I think this must be a result of poor coaching. But I also think the more senior players we have are poor role models and have failed to set the necessary standard.

Edited April 7, 2012 by Knuckles

[monoccular 16,073]

I agree it has to do with both. But I think our player development and culture are the major issues.

Recruiting-

At this point it looks as though picking up Cook was a major blunder. Other then that I can't seen any glaring mistakes. How could anyone have foreseen the Scully situation and Martin was clearly ranked third by all recruiters in that draft anyway. As for Watts, again he was rated as the number one in his draft by most of the so called experts and there was no controversy at the time we drafted him. I firmly believe his career will ultimately surpass Naitanui

Development-

I look at our list and think back to when a lot of these players came on the scene showing plenty and have gone backwards.

Gysberts- The perfect example came out in his first four or five games looked like a star, but has struggled with injury and form ever since.

Trengove- Has pretty much stayed at the same level sine arriving. Luckily this a pretty good level.

Tapscott- Looked great early last year. Then fell away as the year progressed. Remains to be seen how he comes back this year.

Howe- Had everyone excited throughout last season. Looks to have fallen away this year rather than going to a new level.

Garland- I'm not going to mark him too harshly. But his game doesn't seem to have improved over the past 2 years.

Blease- Was looking good at the end of last year. Now is battling to make the team and doesn't seem to have a position.

Morton- The whole of the AFL thought we had picked up a gun when drafted. Played reasonably early, but his form has slipped away year by year.

Watts- Again everything I read leading up to the draft had him number one. Mismanaged on his debut. Has showed plenty at times, but not consistently. Should be making his mark on games consistently by now.

Bennell- Has had some reasonable games early. Will be lucky to be around next year. Has not progressed at all since being at the club.

McKenzie- Showed plenty of energy early and was impacting games. Skills are still poor and doesn't seem to have expanded his capabilities at all.

I don't really like to single players out but I want to illustrate by thoughts that very few if any MFC players have improved over the past 3 - 4 years. I think this must be a result of poor coaching. But I also think the more senior players we have are poor role models and have failed to set the necessary standard.

I agree with most of what you have said.

Question remains is WHY?

Is / was it poor coaching (I am not one of those who wants to sack Neeld right now - he has a hell of a lot of ground to make up)?

IMO it is an appalling dearth of on field leadership - who honestly in our list can new players on our list look up to? Name ONE senior inspirational "leader". No wonder the beginners don't come on.

The next question is of course, why the lack of leaders? That I don't have an answer to. Off field leadership??

[bing181 8,167]

There's a very good chance that Darling would have been selected with our second pick had he dropped that low, but twelve different recruiters overlooked him between our first pick and pick 26!

We've made recruiting errors I'm sure, as every club has, but let's be realistic about the extent of our errors.

Realistic? Here on Demonland?

The reason Darling went comparatively low were well documented at the time.

Everyone's disappointed, so in the absence of anything we can hang our hats on, let's start a BP witch hunt.

We don't have the cattle (as Old constantly reminds us ...), and we're going to suck for at least a few years. End of story. Get over it. Some nice first round picks coming up though at this rate.

[Demon17 4,564]

I say development and impatience.

I don't think there's anything wrong with the choices we've made, but they haven't been developed well,

Neeld will rectify this, but it will take time.

Bottom line is that Neale daniher and team left the list in basket case mode and no serious effort was made to recover apart from draft picks.since 2007.

Neeld and his team now have the ability and skills to do this. IMO the right rein has been pulled and its now a time issue.

[Dee Fan 3,247]

How can you say that anyone who knew football would have selected Darling?

Every recruiter in the country overlooked him with their first pick?

There's a very good chance that Darling would have been selected with our second pick had he dropped that low, but twelve different recruiters overlooked him between our first pick and pick 26!

We've made recruiting errors I'm sure, as every club has, but let's be realistic about the extent of our errors.

As I said once before Darling will have played 60+ games before Cook gets on the park and that's if he ever gets on the park. So that means we've lost 3 years of a top class footballer banking on some skinny kid that may never play but has potential and even if he does he may never be a patch on Darling.

I reckon I could have done the recruiting job at Melbourne over the last 4 or so years just by reading the HUN, BigFooty and Kevin Sheahan; what top line footballer did BP pick up that wasn't there about's in all the Phantom Drafts? We have drafted Gawn who already had a knee reco, we drafted Fitzy when he had Chronic Fatigue, we picked 3 tall skinny kids as our first pick in three of four drafts when we are crying out for midfielders.

[Dee Fan 3,247]

Realistic? Here on Demonland?

The reason Darling went comparatively low were well documented at the time.

Everyone's disappointed, so in the absence of anything we can hang our hats on, let's start a BP witch hunt.

We don't have the cattle (as Old constantly reminds us ...), and we're going to suck for at least a few years. End of story. Get over it. Some nice first round picks coming up though at this rate.

You know what? You'll probably be saying the same thing in five years time, I hear this so often "just give it time, we have the kids it's just a matter of getting games in to them" well it's not, what we have isn't good enough.

Also, I'm sick of hearing that I'm impatient, I've been told this every year for the last 20 or so years; I reckon I've been very patient.

[Ron Burgundy 8,584]

You know its almost laughable that some at the club predicted a premiership in 2013.

Tell me you're joking - I had thought we are really starting to show some good signs.

It's got to be both recruiting and development IMO. And a complete void when it comes to leadership by the club's senior players over several years (except Junior ironically).

[Waltham33 409]

Can I have a bit each way?

1. Recruitment –The Dees have drafted too many players with the same physical make-up, Watts, Morton, Blease, Petterd, Cook – etc all thin light bodied players. Hawthorn have 2 key criteria when recruiting, is the player strong enough to win their own ball at all times and once they win it can they use it. Simple but they are playing for flags and the Demons are all over the shop.

2. Player Development – how many players are actually playing to their potential today? Player development takes serious investment from both a physical and psychological perspective and whilst I do not know this to be true, I would suggest our lack of investment in key coaches over the years would not put us in a good position to develop players to their maximum level. Anyhow this coaching staff has the capability, but it will take time.

[Jack Attack 3]

This prob needs a separate thread but was thinking bout how we need to change the list for next year and obviously we need to wait till more of the season as elapsed, but for mine, we need to make at least 9-10 list changes

In - Viney, compo picks x 2 ( should be outside/inside mids - would love Lachy Whitfield but we would need to finish last , possibly jimmy toumpas from SA, Nick Vlastuin from northern nights or even Jonathan O'Rourke from the Calder Cannons) , 2nd round draft pick - small forward quick and loves to tackle (maybe a shannon taylor type from WA) , 3rd round pick , 4th round pick , 1-2 smart trades to fill a need , 2 new rookies to replace Evans and Lawrence perhaps ?

Out : Macdonald , Green ( he is past it !) , davey , Dunn , Bennell , maybe jetta , Evans , Lawrence and I would possibly would trade 2 of either moloney, jamar and Rivers

What does everyone think , it may result in some more pain but we need to have a semi rebuild !

[Hannibal 5,814]

Development-

I look at our list and think back to when a lot of these players came on the scene showing plenty and have gone backwards.

Gysberts- The perfect example came out in his first four or five games looked like a star, but has struggled with injury and form ever since.

Trengove- Has pretty much stayed at the same level sine arriving. Luckily this a pretty good level.

Tapscott- Looked great early last year. Then fell away as the year progressed. Remains to be seen how he comes back this year.

Howe- Had everyone excited throughout last season. Looks to have fallen away this year rather than going to a new level.

Garland- I'm not going to mark him too harshly. But his game doesn't seem to have improved over the past 2 years.

Blease- Was looking good at the end of last year. Now is battling to make the team and doesn't seem to have a position.

Morton- The whole of the AFL thought we had picked up a gun when drafted. Played reasonably early, but his form has slipped away year by year.

Watts- Again everything I read leading up to the draft had him number one. Mismanaged on his debut. Has showed plenty at times, but not consistently. Should be making his mark on games consistently by now.

Bennell- Has had some reasonable games early. Will be lucky to be around next year. Has not progressed at all since being at the club.

McKenzie- Showed plenty of energy early and was impacting games. Skills are still poor and doesn't seem to have expanded his capabilities at all.

I don't really like to single players out but I want to illustrate by thoughts that very few if any MFC players have improved over the past 3 - 4 years. I think this must be a result of poor coaching. But I also think the more senior players we have are poor role models and have failed to set the necessary standard.

I think that this is the main reason. Chris Judd has been instrumental in Marc Murphy's development, Hawthorn youngsters are shown the way by Hodge, Sewell and Mitchell, Scott Pendlebury is now the main man at Collingwood, but at least he and Daisy Thomas had Nathan Buckley on the list and teaching them in their first two years. The Bulldogs are down the ladder, but Liberatore, Wallis and Clay Smith have Boyd and Cross to set the standards.

The good news is we now have a fine coaching structure and some really talented youngsters that will come through together. Tapscott, Strauss, Trengove, Gysberts, Howe, Watts, Blease, Viney, Tynan, Davis and Gawn plus two first round picks from this year's bumper draft will all be around their mid twenties at the same time.

[Arsene Wenger 72]

This prob needs a separate thread but was thinking bout how we need to change the list for next year and obviously we need to wait till more of the season as elapsed, but for mine, we need to make at least 9-10 list changes

In - Viney, compo picks x 2 ( should be outside/inside mids - would love Lachy Whitfield but we would need to finish last , possibly jimmy toumpas from SA, Nick Vlastuin from northern nights or even Jonathan O'Rourke from the Calder Cannons) , 2nd round draft pick - small forward quick and loves to tackle (maybe a shannon taylor type from WA) , 3rd round pick , 4th round pick , 1-2 smart trades to fill a need , 2 new rookies to replace Evans and Lawrence perhaps ?

Out : Macdonald , Green ( he is past it !) , davey , Dunn , Bennell , maybe jetta , Evans , Lawrence and I would possibly would trade 2 of either moloney, jamar and Rivers

What does everyone think , it may result in some more pain but we need to have a semi rebuild !

If there was ever a good time to do it, it's now.

I think it's a must that we use 2nd and 3rd round picks.

My delisting would be from Dunn, Macdonald, Green, Jetta, Davey, Bate, Bartram.

Jamar to GWS if he wants.

Trade Moloney &/or Sylvia.

[Footynut 302]

This prob needs a separate thread but was thinking bout how we need to change the list for next year and obviously we need to wait till more of the season as elapsed, but for mine, we need to make at least 9-10 list changes

In - Viney, compo picks x 2 ( should be outside/inside mids - would love Lachy Whitfield but we would need to finish last , possibly jimmy toumpas from SA, Nick Vlastuin from northern nights or even Jonathan O'Rourke from the Calder Cannons) , 2nd round draft pick - small forward quick and loves to tackle (maybe a shannon taylor type from WA) , 3rd round pick , 4th round pick , 1-2 smart trades to fill a need , 2 new rookies to replace Evans and Lawrence perhaps ?

Out : Macdonald , Green ( he is past it !) , davey , Dunn , Bennell , maybe jetta , Evans , Lawrence and I would possibly would trade 2 of either moloney, jamar and Rivers

What does everyone think , it may result in some more pain but we need to have a semi rebuild !

While i agree with your post I would like to add a couple of points.

I have seen many posts on here already pointing to the draft.

Fact is we have a whole season bar 2 games to go before we can draft.

I do not think it to be an overstatement to say that there are teams that have played the game that have had less talent than us and still managed to be more competitive.

I think Neeld needs to keep pushing our players regardless and attempt through the adversity to instill more heart and resilience with the group we have.

When the end of the season comes of course we can look to maximise our draft outcomes but prior to that every effort must go into turning around the culture of this club.

This will take a mammoth effort and unfortunately time (which we all don't want to stomach).

I think its unfortunate that many look towards the draft for a glimmer of hope already. It's understandable but boy we need to try to get off the canvas from here and fight starting this week against Richmond.

Reality is before the season we would have considered ourselves on par with Richmond. Reality is the only thing that has changed is players mindset. If we can get some confidence into these players and have them play honestly for each other things will have a different complexion.

Neeldy you have time....do what you know you need to do.

[Ron Burgundy 8,584]

I don't think we should embark on an entirely new rebuild. I would like to see Neeld (and others) tweak our list Sydney Swans style. Be smart about it - recruit the best available juniors, but also broaden the lens to hunt some effective recycled older players.

List management's a continuum. And that's what's annoyed the hell out of me to date with our recruiting and list development. I think it's been utterly naive. It's as though they've said - the starting line in this race is 2013, and any player who won't be on the list then will be exited, and we'll plug games into a load of skinny, under-developed kids prior to that date and, hey presto, we'll win a flag.

To my mind, it matters not whether player 'x' or player 'y' will be around to win a flag or not. It's whether they have a valuable contribution to make for the period of time in which they're on the list. And if they're in the best 22 and they fit into the structure that the club is building, play them. Make it hard for the juniors players to earn their spot. Create a proper, hard edged club culture.

I'm glad we have Neeld at the helm. I don't know him, but I know he gets it.

[Ron Burgundy 8,584]

And to those who say our recruiting's been first class, but our ability to develop players has been ordinary - well, if that's the case, why would you recruit some many "project" players with high draft picks and not recruit the kids who already look out of the box at age 18 (eg, Cook over Darling).

Cook may very well be a good player - but, on any construction, he was a slightly risky project player at that pick - not exactly a percentage play for a club in our situation.

[jayceebee31 669]

Can I have a bit each way?

1. Recruitment –The Dees have drafted too many players with the same physical make-up, Watts, Morton, Blease, Petterd, Cook – etc all thin light bodied players. Hawthorn have 2 key criteria when recruiting, is the player strong enough to win their own ball at all times and once they win it can they use it. Simple but they are playing for flags and the Demons are all over the shop.

2. Player Development – how many players are actually playing to their potential today? Player development takes serious investment from both a physical and psychological perspective and whilst I do not know this to be true, I would suggest our lack of investment in key coaches over the years would not put us in a good position to develop players to their maximum level. Anyhow this coaching staff has the capability, but it will take time.

Great & accurate post IMO.

Add McKenzie, Gysberts,Jetta,Bennell,Garland, Evans,Tynan and Spencer to that list as well,although Pencil has built up very well,there bodies have trouble handling the heavy workload and breaks down.Also the list carries players that seem to be either past it or or just not up to standard, they include- Bail,Bartram, Bennell, Bate, Dunn, Fitzpatrick, Howe is questionable as well - doesn't hold his marks and definately doesn't do enough.Others include Joel Mac, Morton, Nicho,Petterd, Sellars,and I am asking myself if Rivers is also up to league standard.Unfortunately, I feel we need to rebuild again.

[Jack Attack 3]

And Some of the realistic players we need to target come trade time ....

David McKay, Richard Douglas (adel) ( has dangerfield re-signed with the crows yet ?)

David Ellard (Carlton )

Jarryd Blair (collingwood )

Nick Suban (Fremantle)

Simon Hogan (Geelong)

Josh Caddy , josh toy, Matt shaw ( gc )

Xavier Ellis ( hawthorn)

Steven salopek ( port )

Matt rosa, ash smith , koby Stevens (eagles)

Most of these players wouldnt cost an arm and a leg, could def add something to our list , and most are starved of oppurtunity at their current clubs making them realistic trade targets

Thoughts ?

[Footynut 302]

And to those who say our recruiting's been first class, but our ability to develop players has been ordinary - well, if that's the case, why would you recruit some many "project" players with high draft picks and not recruit the kids who already look out of the box at age 18 (eg, Cook over Darling).

Cook may very well be a good player - but, on any construction, he was a slightly risky project player at that pick - not exactly a percentage play for a club in our situation.

Totally agree RB...

It's as if almost every player we have drafted is a 'project player' which means we have never understood their value until its too late.

I can't remember the last time we recruited a 'Fyfe' or 'Martin' that other clubs seem to get that hit the ground running.

I still look at Sam Reid and Watts...what would we give to have Reid on our list.

Regardless of our draft position other clubs have proven you dont need pick 1 to create a strong competitive list.

[Tony Tea 2,786]

AFL footy is all about grunt.

In a big game coaches say to their players "go out and win the ball against your direct opponent" or "stop your opponent getting the ball". If your player has less power than his opponent, it does not matter how skilled your bloke is, the opponent will mostly win out.

I'm sick of watching our players look like kids against men, but until we can match it physically we can forget about winning big games and finals.