The Outlook: Senior Players in 2012

[The Reverend 1,736]

Isn't it funny how we perceive things differently?

I thought I was being positive...

I said we should improve...

Look, I get that overt and consistent negativity isn't great, but that isn't the problem at the MFC (it's a problem, but not the problem).

The real problem is that our expectations on players are outside what they can achieve. I am just attempting to point out that our senior players are not comparable with the best sides, nor middling sides, and until they become more consistent, more committed, or usurped by others - we will struggle.

Are you positive about that?

[old dee 23,787]

Isn't it funny how we perceive things differently?

I thought I was being positive...

I said we should improve...

Look, I get that overt and consistent negativity isn't great, but that isn't the problem at the MFC (it's a problem, but not the problem).

The real problem is that our expectations on players are outside what they can achieve. I am just attempting to point out that our senior players are not comparable with the best sides, nor middling sides, and until they become more consistent, more committed, or usurped by others - we will struggle.

For what it is worth you have my vote

[rjay 24,917]

Isn't it funny how we perceive things differently?

I thought I was being positive...

I said we should improve...

Look, I get that overt and consistent negativity isn't great, but that isn't the problem at the MFC (it's a problem, but not the problem).

The real problem is that our expectations on players are outside what they can achieve. I am just attempting to point out that our senior players are not comparable with the best sides, nor middling sides, and until they become more consistent, more committed, or usurped by others - we will struggle.

Agree, the only one of our senior players (over 25's) who is comparable IMO is Jamar. That's why we need the next rung, Frawley, Garland, Jones and co along with the new captains to stand up.

[Maldonboy38 6,400]

This is a really good thread and has got me thinking. Most of us would remember that period of weeks when we found out that David Neitz would have to retire due to a potentially serious neck injury. When he stepped down we had Junior McDonald, Green, Davey and Rivers. But when it came down the crunch the only person of experience, with on-field ticker and the ability to represent the club in public was Junior McDonald.

What I am getting to is this: it is in the last 2 - 3 years of Neale Daniher's reign that the leadership development stalled. Once Neitz stepped away there was Junior, then a huge gap to anyone else. With all due respect to Rivers, Davey and Green none of them inspire people to follow them - at least not from the point of view od supporters.

Further to this, Bailey demonstrated a mindset that he was coaching boys rather than men and so the leadership development in his years was also basically zero.

And this is one of the main reasons MFC went after Neil Craig and why Todd Viney was retained - they can develop leaders. From what we see and hear about the club we now have a decent leadership development program in place and the right people to lead it through.

I can't tell you my relief when Grimes was appointed Captain. I reckon he is a beauty. With him, Trengove and Jones involved we are at last on the right track after 5 years or so of leadership development stagnation. At least I hope so!

Edited March 1, 2012 by Maldonboy38

[DemonWA 3,933]

I am just attempting to point out that our senior players are not comparable with the best sides, nor middling sides, and until they become more consistent, more committed, or usurped by others - we will struggle.

I agree with this point. As a rule too many of us want our team to be a like for like with Geelong / Collingwood. "Tapscott can be our Chapman", "Martin can be our Leigh Brown", "Gysberts will be our Pendlebury"

I think our older players would look decent in a good team. and i think our young players are still 2-3 years away from really being a contender. Purely based on age.

[Sir Why You Little 37,033]

I agree with what you're saying about the players and that we're still a long way from the top. It's a free world and yes, supporters who've paid their money are entitiled to voice their opinion, but I guess I'm coming from a teacher's perspective. I know that if I keep telling kids they're useless, they will more than likely start to believe me and stop trying. I know also that a little bit of positive feedback can turn a struggler into a great student. It's simple psychology really. It would be an interesting experiment if we could remove all of the negative stuff directed at our players and replace it with exclusively positive, constructive feedback. Yeah, I'm a dreamer, but adults are not much different to kids. Particularly footballers.

I agree with your sentiment here...i watched my 2 Nephews Change schools & become A grade Students within weeks. It is possible.

Our List may struggle in 2012, yes. But with the right teaching this list could also suprise the S@#$%t out of all of us all.....It is possible.

Edited March 1, 2012 by why you little

[Buffalo 203]

Absolutely agree - just look what happened when Northey took over in 1987...

[Buffalo 203]

By the way, did anyone else do a double-take when Jade Rawlings suggested JoelMac was our best player last weekend?

[Hells Gates 505]

By the way, did anyone else do a double-take when Jade Rawlings suggested JoelMac was our best player last weekend?

He also said jamie Bennell was good.... From what I read here he should never play AFL again...

[old dee 23,787]

I agree with this point. As a rule too many of us want our team to be a like for like with Geelong / Collingwood. "Tapscott can be our Chapman", "Martin can be our Leigh Brown", "Gysberts will be our Pendlebury"

I think our older players would look decent in a good team. and i think our young players are still 2-3 years away from really being a contender. Purely based on age.

Decent will not cut it mate they need to be good or very good.

also making no comment on "Hells Gate" comment

[Arsene Wenger 72]

It's all about usurpage.

The young-to-middle band need to become the middle-to-senior band.

Then we'll be on the right track.

[Hells Gates 505]

Decent will not cut it mate they need to be good or very good.

also making no comment on "Hells Gate" comment

Why not? I was only passing on what Rawlings said. I never saw the game.

[Biffen 12,943]

Our team has very much been told to sink or swim in terms of age .Talent wise ,we have shown , on rare occasions ,that we can compete with the best .

The problems in the past have been due to a lack of game plan . I think the fact that we have a lot of games in some young bodies will serve us well .There will come a time this year when it all "clicks" and our structures will hold up under pressure .

[Guest gidon]

I like to think that our senior players have been a victim of a bad Football Dept for too long.

Bad and out dated coaching. Daniher was kept too long. He was a great coach in his day but was kept too long and his coaching methods became out dated.

Bailey was just a disaster. He came from a club who won a Premiership from the tail end of a style of play that won premiership's (similar to Daniher, greyhound types playing outside attacking football).

Development. We have had skeleton staff concentrating on trying to develop players with very good draft picks. Development had not been good for ten years.

Poor recruitment and trading. Great midfields have a team of players supporting each other to play to each others strengths whilst developing. As do the forwards and backs. Not since the 90's and early 2000's has the MFC had a good balance of each of the 3 different parts of the game.

The club chasing tails. In the early 2000's we have a poor backline, now we have a decent backline. Problem fixed. At the same time we had a strong forward line and very good midfield. The forward line fell over and we recruited to fix this problem and tried to fix our lack of inside mids at the same time. The forward looks much better but now our mid stocks are bare. We are now chasing mids to fix the problem or have been for a while.

Back to recruiting. One year we recruit all mids, the next all talls. Were is the balance? All trying to fix holes. This year was the same. All big players with grunt and mostly

players within an age group. Still trying to fix holes wihjn the list.

In regards to the senior players. We have some very good talented players but they suffer the consequences of the FD deficiencies. Moloney is a very good mid. Yes he is inconsistent, but you coach against us. Who do you stop? Only Moloney. No one else can be damaging. Green is a mid sized forward. We try and make him a midfielder. He has less impact, goes back to a forward, becomes AA, so we continue to stack on the pressure playing him in a KP. WTF, no wonder his form goes down. Davey is a small forward who can be damaging offensively and defensively. Coaches fear him and we make him a roaming mid due to damaging foot skills and his motor is poor and is easily stopped. Rivers is an excellent damaging 3rd tall, and he continues to play A KPB. Good teams play gorillas on him and push him deep.

I'm don't like blaming the individuals as they are very good individually. They just continue to block holes due to a poor FD and coaching. I could go on about facilities of the past etc. Too Many reasons of why with our club. Blame the club not the individuals.

[rpfc 28,384]

This is a really good thread and has got me thinking. Most of us would remember that period of weeks when we found out that David Neitz would have to retire due to a potentially serious neck injury. When he stepped down we had Junior McDonald, Green, Davey and Rivers. But when it came down the crunch the only person of experience, with on-field ticker and the ability to represent the club in public was Junior McDonald.

What I am getting to is this: it is in the last 2 - 3 years of Neale Daniher's reign that the leadership development stalled. Once Neitz stepped away there was Junior, then a huge gap to anyone else. With all due respect to Rivers, Davey and Green none of them inspire people to follow them - at least not from the point of view od supporters.

Further to this, Bailey demonstrated a mindset that he was coaching boys rather than men and so the leadership development in his years was also basically zero.

And this is one of the main reasons MFC went after Neil Craig and why Todd Viney was retained - they can develop leaders. From what we see and hear about the club we now have a decent leadership development program in place and the right people to lead it through.

I can't tell you my relief when Grimes was appointed Captain. I reckon he is a beauty. With him, Trengove and Jones involved we are at last on the right track after 5 years or so of leadership development stagnation. At least I hope so!

Good post, Maldonboy. Made me think.

We went from a multitude of strong players and personalities in the late 90s/2000 to a real dearth from around the time Schwarz/Powell/Woey/Febey/some I am missing/ left around 01-03

[Harrisonrules 273]

It's up to those on the field to improve.

One point I will make about Neeld and Co. that affects this argument is that they have seen fit to push older boys into the team (Clark, Bate, and Batram) because they know that the kids need help - they need some strong bodies and minds in there. I would also include Magner and Couch in this argument but I do believe AFL experience is important to being a senior player in an AFL team.

Bartram from Ocean Grove. Like Bailey pushed Miller from Mt Gravat. Even coaches lose their professionalism at times with sentimentalism. Eventually they learn.

[Pennant St Dee 13,171]

Bartram from Ocean Grove. Like Bailey pushed Miller from Mt Gravat. Even coaches lose their professionalism at times with sentimentalism. Eventually they learn.

FFS an elite ball user he aint but mark my words he will become one of the best run with players in the next year or two

[old dee 23,787]

Why not? I was only passing on what Rawlings said. I never saw the game.

All fine Hells gate Just a thing about Bennell and me not making comments about him till May

[Arsene Wenger 72]

Bartram from Ocean Grove. Like Bailey pushed Miller from Mt Gravat. Even coaches lose their professionalism at times with sentimentalism. Eventually they learn.

Bartram is from Barwon Heads and the 2 clubs have a fierce rivalry.

Drawing a long and misguided bow there between Bartram and Neeld.

[Hells Gates 505]

All fine Hells gate Just a thing about Bennell and me not making comments about him till May

Ok mate no worries. I might take that advice on all players myself.

[rjay 24,917]

Bartram is from Barwon Heads and the 2 clubs have a fierce rivalry.

Drawing a long and misguided bow there between Bartram and Neeld.

I think it is drawing a long bow also, but Bartram played his junior footy with Ocean Grove before heading to Geelong Falcons.

[Webber 10,465]

I like to think that our senior players have been a victim of a bad Football Dept for too long.

Bad and out dated coaching. Daniher was kept too long. He was a great coach in his day but was kept too long and his coaching methods became out dated.

Bailey was just a disaster. He came from a club who won a Premiership from the tail end of a style of play that won premiership's (similar to Daniher, greyhound types playing outside attacking football).

Development. We have had skeleton staff concentrating on trying to develop players with very good draft picks. Development had not been good for ten years.

Poor recruitment and trading. Great midfields have a team of players supporting each other to play to each others strengths whilst developing. As do the forwards and backs. Not since the 90's and early 2000's has the MFC had a good balance of each of the 3 different parts of the game.

The club chasing tails. In the early 2000's we have a poor backline, now we have a decent backline. Problem fixed. At the same time we had a strong forward line and very good midfield. The forward line fell over and we recruited to fix this problem and tried to fix our lack of inside mids at the same time. The forward looks much better but now our mid stocks are bare. We are now chasing mids to fix the problem or have been for a while.

Back to recruiting. One year we recruit all mids, the next all talls. Were is the balance? All trying to fix holes. This year was the same. All big players with grunt and mostly

players within an age group. Still trying to fix holes wihjn the list.

In regards to the senior players. We have some very good talented players but they suffer the consequences of the FD deficiencies. Moloney is a very good mid. Yes he is inconsistent, but you coach against us. Who do you stop? Only Moloney. No one else can be damaging. Green is a mid sized forward. We try and make him a midfielder. He has less impact, goes back to a forward, becomes AA, so we continue to stack on the pressure playing him in a KP. WTF, no wonder his form goes down. Davey is a small forward who can be damaging offensively and defensively. Coaches fear him and we make him a roaming mid due to damaging foot skills and his motor is poor and is easily stopped. Rivers is an excellent damaging 3rd tall, and he continues to play A KPB. Good teams play gorillas on him and push him deep.

I'm don't like blaming the individuals as they are very good individually. They just continue to block holes due to a poor FD and coaching. I could go on about facilities of the past etc. Too Many reasons of why with our club. Blame the club not the individuals.

Excellent post gidon. Your summation of the way Green, Moloney, Davey, and Rivers have had to perform in the mess of the recent past is very well argued. I think the recruiting strategy for this year though has been much more focussed on immediate needs in a 'Moneyball' way, and it may just come off. Bringing in Mitch Clark to sharpen the scoring strategy is a no-brainer I guess, but it immediately allows for the appropriate use of Green (who I think will be grateful to be free of the captaincy). What may be the mature age coup of the year in James Magner, and the reinvention of Matthew Bate, create a much less jerrybuilt look to the midfield, and will allow Aaron Davey to be used where he is best, as well as taking the pressure off Brent Moloney, which is ESSENTIAL to our midfield success this year. I believe an ably supported Moloney will allow him to show he is one of the most damaging midfielders in the AFL. Not the fastest, or the most skilled, but one of the best.....watch this space. Recruiting and reinventing James Sellar as a tall defender also allows Jared Rivers to be at his best for similar reasons.

As this thread has drummed, we may not have the most talented senior list in the competition, but what is even more certain, is that they haven't had the environment to maximise their abilities. As our 2 and 3 year players come into their 3rd and 4th years, and with this year's recruiting successes and a more uncomprising coaching strategy, our potential for this year I believe is top 6, barring injury cruelling. Conversely, we make not even make the 8, but either way, the planning strategy at the club on display so far is very impressive, and a big part of that seems to be aimed allowing our senior players to perform at their best.

[satyricon 267]

He also said jamie Bennell was good.... From what I read here he should never play AFL again...

Let me see....mmmm....it's difficult....Jade Rawlings said he was happy with Bennell and Macdonald.....HELLS GATES' isn't....which opinion really matters....mmmmm....let me think.....

[dpositive 1,665]

What a good thread

Agree with OD Maldon boy and Gidon

I think the total list is the saving point not the best 22

I am still waiting for the Jarman/Mcloud/ Brereton/Buddy/Judd gamebreaker to appear and am fervently hoping it is Watts or (and) Trengove.

But with the development that seems to be apparent with Neeld Craig Viney and all the coaches from reports here a full ist with many options does seem to be emerging. Keep the opposition guessing with swing changes and all playing a game of attacking footy

I have already said that we can win all matches Im not expecting that but if we can see improvement and keep our heads up we will win more than we lose. GO DEES

[Demon17 5,188]

When these players below are the main core that is when we progress:

Grimes

Trengove

Tappy

Gysberts

Blease

McKenzie

Frawley

Garland

Howe

Gawn

& Co

Forget the older guys they have had their chance.

A former Asst. Caoch at a top club(Read recent Premiers) told me the industry thinking is that good players make good coaches. I don't entirely agree as I think Neeld also brings something, but G is G is spot on and the future is bright if his list gets going. It won'y be the older ones - sadly.

Trengove/Grimes appointment points to Neeld seeing the future this way as well and that this young group are up for it.