The "Best Available" challenge

[Bring-Back-Powell 14,833]

For a number 4 draft pick, Cale Morton is pretty low on everybody's list.

[mauriesy 7,296]

But I don't think any of those players were picked based on needs.

There might have been some element of 'KP' need in the selection of Watts. Otherwise somelike like Stephen Hill might have been as good a choice.

[H_T 3,047]

And, bar Jurrah (for obvious reasons) those top 6 are all high draft picks.

Does that not say we should go for the best available players at those early picks, because they will force their way into the side and become one of our best regardless of what position they play..?

Possibly.

Read into it what you will.

But I don't think any of those players were picked based on needs.

I agree and I think that is what old55 is intimating. They are all first round draft picks (bar Jurrah - PSD pick) - Frawley, Grimes, Scully, Watts, Trengove. And at a guess, all best available (with a hint of suitability/need ie. Watts, Frawley ?).

edit: tbh they all come with a degree of need...but it's primarily *best*

Edited October 19, 2010 by High Tower

[beelzebub 23,376]

For a number 4 draft pick, Cale Morton is pretty low on everybody's list.

For a good reason ; frustrates many of us . For mine is slow to capitalize on his obvious talent and realize his abilty.

[old55 23,576]

For a number 4 draft pick, Cale Morton is pretty low on everybody's list.

I think that's a good sign - Scully, Watts, Trengove drafted ahead of him.

Frawley and Grimes were inspired CAC pick value and Jurrah is magic.

Morton and Garland very hard to split for me, Garland more guaranteed but Morton has greater range and could join the elite.

[e25 5]

Morton should sit just below the top 6 and I think the only thing holding him back is his slowly developing build.

He will come on, he has just taken longer.

I think Morton & Garland sit comfortably just outside the top 6.

[Red Sox 2]

Great thread 55.

1. Scully...understand the arguments over KP being more 'worth' but Scully is rolled gold # 1

Frawley

Grimes

Jurrah

Watts

Trengove

Gysberts

McKenzie

Garland

Petterd

Morton

Blease

Tapscott

Fitzpatrick

Bennell

Wonaeamirri

Gawn

Strauss

Bail

Maric

Jetta

McNamara

[Radar Detector 1,347]

Morton should sit just below the top 6 and I think the only thing holding him back is his slowly developing build.

He will come on, he has just taken longer.

I think Morton & Garland sit comfortably just outside the top 6.

I agree with this. Morton's natural gifts are just about the most impressive of all our youngsters, he just needs to bulk up a little. I also suspect that if he had held his form from twelve months ago he would have been in many people's top 3 or 4.

[Jordie_tackles 354]

So what is this thread now about? ranking our draft picks? they were all best available, and the late talls are still latre in the pecking order, baring Frawley who is the gem...

Is a better example of best available versus KPP to look at our picks then look at the next best KPP in comparison?

i dont know for example scully/trengove versus butcher for example?

[Hannabal 4]

So what is this thread now about? ranking our draft picks? they were all best available, and the late talls are still latre in the pecking order, baring Frawley who is the gem...

Is a better example of best available versus KPP to look at our picks then look at the next best KPP in comparison?

i dont know for example scully/trengove versus butcher for example?

I'm not surprised you don't know, Jordie. You don't even think Jurrah warrants selection.

Edited October 19, 2010 by Hannabal

[Hannabal 4]

For a number 4 draft pick, Cale Morton is pretty low on everybody's list.

There's a clear top 6, which is evident in many posts. I have Morton 7.

I have Jurrah 6, which isn't as high as some, but while he's as exciting as it gets, he's also soft. He'll have a lot of hard nosed pressure put on him by good teams. If he can stand up to that pressure in a final then he'll move up my rankings. Until he can perform in a final I'll reserve further judgment.

[Jordie_tackles 354]

I'm not surprised you don't know, Jordie. You don't even think Jurrah warrants selection.

Wow thanks for this fantastic and insiteful response hannabal, are all 3000 of your post upto this high standard?

Yeah didnt inlcude Jurrah after reading another poster suggesting that he wasnt ever entered into a National draft situation, maybe should have but dont see how it creates a huge impact on the direction of this thread?

[Hannabal 4]

Yeah didnt inlcude Jurrah after reading another poster suggesting that he wasnt ever entered into a National draft situation, maybe should have but dont see how it creates a huge impact on the direction of this thread?

And what has that got to do with the brief given by the OP ?

[Summer Blease 0]

There's a clear top 6, which is evident in many posts. I have Morton 7.

I have Jurrah 6, which isn't as high as some, but while he's as exciting as it gets, he's also soft. He'll have a lot of hard nosed pressure put on him by good teams. If he can stand up to that pressure in a final then he'll move up my rankings. Until he can perform in a final I'll reserve further judgment.

Soft in what way? Surely not the way he goes about it?

By your own ranking system that is insulting to Jurrah conidering Morton just one below him.

Watts has shown more softness onfield than Jurrah IMO and Watts goes 2?

[furious d 464]

And, bar Jurrah (for obvious reasons) those top 6 are all high draft picks.

Does that not say we should go for the best available players at those early picks, because they will force their way into the side and become one of our best regardless of what position they play..?

Possibly.

Read into it what you will.

But I don't think any of those players were picked based on needs.

How do you come to that conclusion? On the evidence provided it's just as easy to say all those picks were needs based. We certainly needed all of them.

I think Luke Molan left some deep scars around here. There seems to be a lot of angst every year over "best available" vs "needs". I don't see it as a contest.

I see needs as just another factor recruiters have to consider when deciding who is best available. It would or should only come into the decision making process early in the draft if there are a few players you're having trouble splitting. As the draft runs deeper and there are more and more players that are harder to rank, needs would become more important.

We'd all agree that deciding who is best available isn't simply a matter of picking the kid who is the best footballer at the time of draft day. If it was we'd probably have Daniel Rich now not Jack Watts. Potential, attitude, work ethic and athletic attributes would be just a few of the things recruiters would look at. Needs would just be another consideration, how much weight it's given would depend entirely on circumstance.

FWIW I think our recruiters have been blessed during this rebuild. It couldn't have been scripted any better.

Frawley and Garland in 2006, before the rebuild had started we had the cornerstones of our future defence and one had been drafted as a forward.

Morton and Grimes in 2007. Grimes has future captain written all over him and needs a bit of time to get his body right so good to get him early. Morton will be a weapon but will take time like Goddard did, needs several preseasons to gain strength. Didn't Cale lose weight after surgery or illness or something last preseason.

Watts and Jurrah in 2008. New forward line, just add games. Jurrah in the PSD, I'll say it again, blessed

2009, Scully and Trengove add some instant ready made class to the midfield.

It's been said before but we really have been KOTD lately, and it's about damn time.

I know Gysberts has only payed a couple of games but they were a couple of petty handy games for a young fella and Tapscott finished the year off strongly at Casey after injury. Most of us here, myself included, were speculating about the KPP's available in that range but our FD didn't rate them so we didn't pick them. Time will tell if we got that right but it shows we won't waste a first round pick purely on a need.

[Lil_red_fire_engine 11,177]

Scully

Frawley

Jurrah

Grimes

Watts

Morton

Trengove

Blease

Gysberts

Garland

Petterd

Bennell

McKenzie

Gysberts

Wonaeamirri

Tapscott

Bail

Gawn

Tmac

Spencer

Jetta

Maric

Fitzpatrick

Strauss

[furious d 464]

The top 8 was reasonably easy.

Scully

Grimes

Trengove

Watts

Frawley

Jurrah

Garland

Morton

After that I had a group of 8 and I found it really hard to compare percieved potential against proven output

McKenzie

Gysberts

Petterd

Tapscott

Wonnaemirri

Benell

Blease

Bail

The rest I've got doubts about or are just too unknown a quantity to rank higher

Strauss

Gawn

Jetta

Fitzpatrick

Maric

Spencer

McNamara

Healey

[Hannabal 4]

Soft in what way? Surely not the way he goes about it?

By your own ranking system that is insulting to Jurrah conidering Morton just one below him.

Watts has shown more softness onfield than Jurrah IMO and Watts goes 2?

If you're interested use the search button. My thoughts on Jurrah being soft have been mentioned a few times.

[Red Sox 2]

If you're interested use the search button. My thoughts on Jurrah being soft have been mentioned a few times.

Does that also apply to anything else you have commented on? If your thoughts on Jurrah have been mentioned before, why bother to rehash once again and open yourself up to a question?

You know a question will come with a comment like that, surely? Are you already aware of this and post accordingly, knowing the response you have when the inevitable question does come?

It was a fine point you made. I actually understand what you mean, it is that inconceivable that others wouldn't?

[Hobbits's 17]

There's a clear top 6, which is evident in many posts. I have Morton 7.

I have Jurrah 6, which isn't as high as some, but while he's as exciting as it gets, he's also soft. He'll have a lot of hard nosed pressure put on him by good teams. If he can stand up to that pressure in a final then he'll move up my rankings. Until he can perform in a final I'll reserve further judgment.

what about the rest of your top 6 Hannabal, will they move up in your rankings when they play in a final and stand up to the pressure ?

my order:

Scully

Frawley

Jurrah

Watts

Grimes

Trengove

Morton

Gysberts

Garland

Petterd

Blease

Bennell

McKenzie

Wonaeamirri

Tapscott

Bail

Gawn

Tmac

Spencer

Jetta

Fitzpatrick

Strauss

Maric

Edited October 20, 2010 by Grimes to Watts

[Summer Blease 0]

If you're interested use the search button. My thoughts on Jurrah being soft have been mentioned a few times.

Not that interested. That is clearly your opinion, my opinion is that you are an increadibly hard marker.

You realise he is still very slight of frame right? The game he is playing is perfect for where he is in his developement.

He dislocated his shoulder too. Just about everything this kid has experienced since coming to the MFC has been a first yet you have the nerve to call him soft?

[Roost It 1,434]

If you're interested use the search button. My thoughts on Jurrah being soft have been mentioned a few times.

Particularly harsh. He's coming from a totally different football backgroud than virtually every other recruit. The games up north that I've seen don't have the same physical intensity as the TAC Cup where most recruits come from. To call him soft after 17 pretty effective games is over the top. Does he need to get ready for some rough treatment? Absolutely. Does he need to be at the bottom of every pack to prove his worth? Absolutely not. Somewhere in the middle is where he needs to be. He's a smart bloke and will be well aware of what he needs to work on to make it at this level. He's still learning the game and to label him soft is as inappropriate as labelling him "The best player to ever play for MFC"

[Hannabal 4]

You realise he is still very slight of frame right?The game he is playing is perfect for where he is in his developement.

He dislocated his shoulder too. Just about everything this kid has experienced since coming to the MFC has been a first yet you have the nerve to call him soft?

No, I thought he was built like Byron Pickett.

Thanks for the heads up about the shoulder reco, I'd forgotten that too.

Do I need to point out I'm a smart arse, or will some believe the two lines above ?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm well aware of the reasons that Jurrah avoids putting his body in certain situations and the shoulder reco certainly wouldn't have helped, but I can only judge what I see. There's no doubt that he'll have a harder edge with more confidence in his body and the more he believes he belongs at AFL level, but he's most certainly been very soft on numerous occasions at senior and VFL level.

I understand his heritage. I've seen coke bottles kicked around on red dirt, where the idea of "taking one for the team" doesn't make a lot of sense when sublime skills are what's in order. Can you imagine what he and others have felt when they've seen hardened AFL bodies with years of weights confront them ? It would be daunting to say the least.

Leon Davis has been AA, but he's just about out of the game because he's soft when the game is at its fiercest. Btw, I don't mention Davis because he's Aboriginal, just because he's the first example to come to mind. Phew.

I love watching Jurrah play, but I want a premiership more. He needs to get harder in contests and not compromise his ability. And I hope he does. I want him to play smart too. I don't want him to get crunched just because he feels like he has to show he can. I want him to take that smarter option and avoid being hit if it's the sensible play. But I also want to see a player that doesn't shy away from contesting. And unfortunately he has.

And if I overdo a point so be it. Many posters here have short memories and some don't understand what it takes to perform in finals.

Edited October 20, 2010 by Hannabal

[Deestroy All 14,266]

Scully

Frawley

Jurrah

Grimes

Watts

Trengove

Morton

Garland

Petterd

McKenzie

Gysberts

Wonaeamirri

Bennell

Blease

Tapscott

Bail

Jetta

Gawn

Spencer

Fitzpatrick

Maric

Strauss

McNamara

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

If Jurrah is soft then Watts is custard.