What to do after we win our 4th?

[H_T 3,049]

For those members or supporters that have been fortunate to have seen a Premiership for the Melbournefc or even fortunate to have seen more than one. Can you understand the feelings and opinions of those who haven't seen one in their lifetime? I also ask have you ACTUALLY seen the playing ability of an elite draft prospect in Tom Scully? (Not just write ups or hearsay). I have followed Melbourne all my life, I am still waiting for that day. Ever so patiently. Time is ticking. Answer: We need more stars.

[Redleg 41,421]

I ask you all this. Remember when we beat the Bulldogs at the Dome in 2007, a game I remember and really enjoyed the win the Dees got that night. If we had lost that game, we would have either Daniel Rich or Nick Naitanui wearing the red and blue, along with Jack Watts... Was that win really worth it?

Garry Lyon just said the same thing on Footy Classified. Hutchy and Thommo agreed and Hutchy said it would be a disaster for the Dees to lose Scully and another pick. Thommo then said he saw Scully play on sunday and that he would walk straight into the Dees side and we wouldn't want to lose him.

[Jaded No More 68,973]

If I don't see another flag in the years I have left (which I hope are many), I guess I'll feel a little sad.

But will it stop me following Melbourne?

NO - Go Dees

I admire you for having that point of view, but like Hannabal, if I was told that Melbourne will never win a flag, I wouldn't bother following the game.

At 22 (nearly 23), I'm already bitter, anxious and annoyed that perhaps I'll never see Melbourne win a premiership in my lifetime, and that hurts. There is nothing I want to see more than a flag, and while I really love this process of rebuilding and watching a list develop together (the development of new kids is probably my favourite part of watching the game), if there is no premiership at the end of this journey I'd be [censored] off.

Clubs exist for premierships, not for winning crap meaningless games against equally crap teams that are out to steal the picks that we rightfully deserve (bloody West Coast won a flag not long ago, North refuse to properly rebuild, as do Richmond, while Freo are a disgrace to footy and humanity at large). I want Scully and the second/third best young player that this year's draft pool has to offer. Not only because it will increase our chances of winning a flag, but because it will also ensure that our competitors don't earn that valuable advantage. Why the hell should we beat other teams when a win, is their ultimate victory?

So put simply, all that the MFC should be after, is a premiership, and having the first two choices on draft day this year will go some way to helping us achieve that goal.

(P.S.- this system sucks)

[BangkokDemon 96]

For those members or supporters that have been fortunate to have seen a Premiership for the Melbournefc or even fortunate to have seen more than one. Can you understand the feelings and opinions of those who haven't seen one in their lifetime? I also ask have you ACTUALLY seen the playing ability of an elite draft prospect in Tom Scully? (Not just write ups or hearsay). I have followed Melbourne all my life, I am still waiting for that day. Ever so patiently. Time is ticking. Answer: We need more stars.

As I said earlier, we all want the same thing, but there is debate about how to get there.

Nothing wrong with that.

Yes, I am quite privilaged and will never forget, sitting in the front row of the MCG, in 1964 (this being the only one I saw "live") and all those emotions that went through me at the time - and have stayed with me forever since.

That doesn't mean, I am satisfied - far from it.

I know I said, if we don't win another flag in my lifetime, I will feel "sad"- I will.

But I also know, that we will all have been let down and sold a pup.

Right now, I believe we are on the right track to bring home the Demon.

When I see what is going on at the club now, I believe this administration will also not be happy until they have a few premierships to their collective names. As for the player group, I think the endevour of the past couple of weeks following the set backs against the Maggies and Bombers, have shown a spirit which has been missing for a long time.

Yes, we need more talent, we all know that. How we get it is the subject of this debate.

Not being in Oz, I have to rely on the internet, web sites such as Demonland and Demonology and what is sent from the club. And all this, including the passion shown on this board, makes me feel, it will happen.

I just hope I am in Melbourne, to see the first one of this era.

Perhaps we should all trust the club and believe in the skills of the recruiting department, to know how this will be done.

It may well be, some form of "list management" is on their minds. If it is, I am sure it will be done with much more "science" than us mere mortals are capable of. But, I doubt it will be a "lose at all cost" mentality.

[Maric Legend 0]

I think some people are overplaying our recent wins.

We played well no doubt about it and our pressure was up, but...

West Coast obviously haven't won interstate for 18 games or whatever it is and yet they still had more inside 50s and scoring shots than us. And Port were just terrible and they're not much better than a bottom side when they play their worst.

I believe we'll beat Freo at the G later on in the year as we should, but the Richmond game, Im sure Jade Rawlings will be playing to help his case for continuing as coach next year and they're probably a better side right now regardless.

Any of the other games, your joking if you think we have any chance, unless Sydney loses some of their stars.

[rpfc 28,765]

I don't understand why so many people are complaining about the fact that we are discussing the "list management" or "tanking" issue.

This is the dominant story for YOUR FOOTBALL CLUB. The actions of the match committee over the next 7 weeks will define our next decade onfield. It is as simple as that. If you don't want to discuss it, pick a thread out that doesn't discuss it.

But for me, and a lot of others, this is the overriding drama that will engulf my life as a MFC supporter/member for the next two months.

Garry Lyon put it best, and I hope we can get it on YouTube, to replay it for those who are struggling themselves with this difficult issue: his head says no more than 4 and his heart wants wins, but he knows that his heart will be gladdened all the more when we are that much better thanks to the 2 picks we need to get.

(I have already said that I see a very bright future for the players we already have, but the opportunity that presents for the club I WANT TO SEE WIN A FLAG is undeniably attractive and within our grasp, and could be the difference between top 2 and top 4, or top6 and top 4 etc.)

I am very knowledgeable about my footy when I rock up to games, and I hate the feeling of going to games in September and knowing that we have little chance of winning the flag.

It's deflating.

It hurts.

It hurts more than tanking. Or 'list management'...

[ViaLoop 11]

Many people have made good calls regarding the topic. As rpfc said, it is the worst feeling going into games in September when you know you have little chance of winning a flag. I don't know about you but I cannot remember a finals series where I have been confident of this football club going all the way.. or even making it to the second week. And to this day I don't feel confident of me seeing this club winning a flag in my lifetime, and i am in my 20's. It is a feeling which I hate.

Simple way to go about this, get the best possible in the draft. We have been bad for a couple of years now, why blow it for some wins that mean nothing at the end of the day? Seriously, 2 wins in a row does not build a winning culture.

[Sir Why You Little 37,124]

I don't understand why so many people are complaining about the fact that we are discussing the "list management" or "tanking" issue.

This is the dominant story for YOUR FOOTBALL CLUB. The actions of the match committee over the next 7 weeks will define our next decade onfield. It is as simple as that. If you don't want to discuss it, pick a thread out that doesn't discuss it.

But for me, and a lot of others, this is the overriding drama that will engulf my life as a MFC supporter/member for the next two months.

Garry Lyon put it best, and I hope we can get it on YouTube, to replay it for those who are struggling themselves with this difficult issue: his head says no more than 4 and his heart wants wins, but he knows that his heart will be gladdened all the more when we are that much better thanks to the 2 picks we need to get.

(I have already said that I see a very bright future for the players we already have, but the opportunity that presents for the club I WANT TO SEE WIN A FLAG is undeniably attractive and within our grasp, and could be the difference between top 2 and top 4, or top6 and top 4 etc.)

I am very knowledgeable about my footy when I rock up to games, and I hate the feeling of going to games in September and knowing that we have little chance of winning the flag.

It's deflating.

It hurts.

It hurts more than tanking. Or 'list management'...

I agree with your words but i don't think its going to happen. This team is going to win more than 4 games. We the supporters have just got to suck it up.

We are so much better than the Shockers & that is a fact.

[Go the Biff 3,440]

As I said earlier, we all want the same thing, but there is debate about how to get there.

Nothing wrong with that.

Yes, I am quite privilaged and will never forget, sitting in the front row of the MCG, in 1964 (this being the only one I saw "live") and all those emotions that went through me at the time - and have stayed with me forever since..............

..........................It may well be, some form of "list management" is on their minds. If it is, I am sure it will be done with much more "science" than us mere mortals are capable of. But, I doubt it will be a "lose at all cost" mentality.

I also want to see a flag - and I'm a damn sight older than Jaded although I suspect not as "maturely positioned" as BangkokDemon. I don't have those memories to cling to after decades of disappointment

The debate is not about pick 1. It is about getting the opportunity to get 2, not one but 2 of the best prospects in the country to add to our list. A list I expect to develop quite rapidly but it needs a further injection of talent. I am as guilty as anyone of viewing our players through rose coloured glasses but even I know our reality. We do not currently have a list capable of developing into a flag-winning combination. We might not be all that far off though & the club should be ruthless in trying to close that gap. Beating North & Freo in 2009 won't do it.

Those two picks could well be the Judd & Hodge of their year. Admittedly they could also be Richard Lounder & Anthony Banik but these days, there are not many duds in the top 3.

To get that elusive flag we will have to recruit well, trade well, develop players well & have a shedload of luck in the process. Getting two bites at this years cherry is a flying start.

Caroline Wilson thinks we need to win games to attract memberships, sponsors & crowds. Balls. We have a record membership on the back of a pig of a year. We have major sponsors on 2 year deals so they will be on board next year when the renaissance begins. We have some (not enough) exciting young talent that will get bums on seats. There is much to look forward to & I'm sure we will see the tide turn next year but this is our last chance to really add some more quality to the mix. To not do so would be negligent.

Those who suggest that winning a couple more games will establish a winning culture at the club - well you're entitled to your opinion but I think you're talking through your arse. A winning culture is established over years, not games. Beating up on fellow hacks won't change a culture - it's just wallpaper over cracks.

BangkokD, you make your case well but I think you are trying to have your cake & eat it too. What you call "list management" others are a bit more frank about. You can have your memories of 1964 & may you enjoy them for many more years - I want my own MFC premiership memories to look back on.

FWIW, here's my "list managed" team for the upcoming Richmond & Freo games.

B. Whelan, Jetta, Bennell

HB. Bell, Maric, McLean

C. Jamar, Spencer, Johnson

HF. Wheatley, Whelan, Warnock

F. McDonald, Valenti, McKenzie

R. Bartram, Martin, McNamara

Emergencies : Bail, Dunn, Yze Magic

Out : Bruce, Moloney, Green, Jurrah, Grimes etc , etc etc (general soreness), Watts (study leave)

Yeah, I know Jetta & Maric probably won't cut it as key position defenders but now would be a good time to find out for sure ! (insert winking thing here)

Edited July 13, 2009 by Go the Biff

[darkhorse72 1,925]

I don't know a "tank" would need great. I remember that goodies episode of the soccer "friendly" at Christmas between the germans and British and the Germans enlisted a Tiger tank as their goalie. If you saw the episode the Tiger didn't do that well, but it wasn't the tanks fault, wrong sport, soccer is non contact. Now the Australian army are about to sell off, 100 odd leopard tanks, fast and agile, the modern athelete. They have three crew so it would count as 3 players, but I think thats a fair balance. A few bumps from it and it'll dominate the field We just has to remember not to run over the ball or an umpire, as without a ball we can't score goals. And if they touch an umpire it'll get suspended. But then if we bought all 100 odd we'd be right, we'll just play his brother the following week.....

[Hannabal 4]

In answer to your first question : No, a flag is not the be all and end all, of what I would like to see.

I suspected as much, hence the question. We're diametrically opposed on this issue which goes to the core of our differing views. A flag is all that matters to me and having Scully plus a second pick in the top 3 or 4, unquestionably gives us the best chance to develop the top end talent that is necessary to push for a flag.

And just on Scully. I saw Rich last year as a junior and have watched him with interest this year. Rich will be an excellent footballer, but Scully is better. That's what is at stake here, plus that second early pick.

[BangkokDemon 96]

<<BangkokD, you make your case well but I think you are trying to have your cake & eat it too. What you call "list management" others are a bit more frank about.>>

Go the Biff, I don't think that's what I want.

There is a difference between "tanking" and "list management".

It's not just a matter of semantics.

"List management" is focused on using this part of the year for trying out new players and protecting others from further injury. Therefore winning is not the only thing.This makes sense (to me)

"Tanking" (to me) is when the side is chosen to give it the best chance of losing.

A fine line admittedly, but 2 completely differnt mind sets.

I think the articles in both The Herald Sun and The Age show what the club thinks about the issue.

Edited July 13, 2009 by BangkokDemon

[BangkokDemon 96]

I suspected as much, hence the question. We're diametrically opposed on this issue which goes to the core of our differing views. A flag is all that matters to me and having Scully plus a second pick in the top 3 or 4, unquestionably gives us the best chance to develop the top end talent that is necessary to push for a flag.

And just on Scully. I saw Rich last year as a junior and have watched him with interest this year. Rich will be an excellent footballer, but Scully is better. That's what is at stake here, plus that second early pick.

I don't think we're opposed at all.

I want to win more flags.

But, I also want a strong and poweful Melbourne Football Club.

Good, strong clubs, win flags.

Don't you want that too ?

As for Scully, I envy you, having the chance to see him in action. I also miss not being able to see Jurrah improve weekly; see Grimes win the Rising Star award last week and all those other things - except on TV.

[Hannabal 4]

I don't think we're opposed at all.

I want to win more flags.

But, I also want a strong and poweful Melbourne Football Club.

Good, strong clubs, win flags.

Don't you want that too ?

Go to my 'top 6' thread, or read some of the other threads and you'll get a clear picture of what I want.

[Wadda We Sing 10,685]

I just feel that there are no guarantees that no 1 and 2 draft picks are the best players. Yes ive seen Scully play and sure he looks great but so did a lot of other kids. Whos to say he will be the best of the bunch and not number 7 or 77....Sure a pp is compensation for a few less than ordinary years but none of us have a crystal ball and its not the end of the world.....

[w00dy 146]

I just feel that there are no guarantees that no 1 and 2 draft picks are the best players. Yes ive seen Scully play and sure he looks great but so did a lot of other kids. Whos to say he will be the best of the bunch and not number 7 or 77....Sure a pp is compensation for a few less than ordinary years but none of us have a crystal ball and its not the end of the world.....

even more reason to get two top picks... if one of them is off the mark, then the other one will be a superstar...

[Wadda We Sing 10,685]

even more reason to get two top picks... if one of them is off the mark, then the other one will be a superstar...

Yeah point taken but whos to say that one of the players we already have wont stand up for that position....

[rpfc 28,765]

I just feel that there are no guarantees that no 1 and 2 draft picks are the best players. Yes ive seen Scully play and sure he looks great but so did a lot of other kids. Whos to say he will be the best of the bunch and not number 7 or 77....Sure a pp is compensation for a few less than ordinary years but none of us have a crystal ball and its not the end of the world.....

Neither is 6 more losses...

[BangkokDemon 96]

Go to my 'top 6' thread, or read some of the other threads and you'll get a clear picture of what I want.

Okay, I read your Top 6 thread - very good.

You and the others commenting, obviously have mnuch better knowledge of the future Top 6, than me. I more or les agree with most choices for the current crop and I generally agree with the concept for analysis and planning

But, I don't think it explans to me, anything about why winning a flag is the "only thing" you want.

I say I want a strong club; you offer a way to get a great team, I agree - so why am I "opposed" to your thoughts?

We both want to win a flag (or lots in fact).

The reason I say a strong club is the most important thing, is becasue amongst other things, it will allow us to build a strong playinggroup (including most importantly, your Top6) - who win flags Q.E.D.

Let's agree, to agree??

[45HG 1,559]

And a very good way to build a strong club is to have the strongest playing list possible.

[MadAsHell 4,215]

This may be a naive question from someone that's only joined the board, but.....

Why do we have to have all these threads along this similar theme? I'm really reconsidering my participation on the board, because frankly I'm bored stupid by all this "we can't win games because we want draft picks" attitude being shoved down my throat.

For someone who's been a Melbourne supporter all my life, not to mention a member for 26 consecutive years since I was twelve years old, I'm really starting to understand why there are some Melbourne supporters at the games that annoy the crap out of me - they must be the ones posting their negative rubbish here.

I'll tell you what I'll be doing if Melbourne wins - cheer like mad and be proud of the red and the blue, like I've done all my life.

Ok Kat, for the record this is my 16th year in a row as a Melbourne member. I was at the 88 grand final as a 5 year old and I was at 00. No one wants to see Melbourne win matches more so then I, however is winning up to 3 extra games for the year and finishing 12th or 13th worth missing out on potentially the best kid to come out of the draft since Judd!!

Me personally I'd be willing to take a few more weeks of pain to set us up for a stronger 2010 and run at the finals potentially in 2011.

[rpfc 28,765]

I posted this in another thread, but I am really interested in people's views, and I don't know which thread people will be reading...

QUOTE (Grand New Flag @ Jul 15 2009, 01:24 PM)

I have it straight from the horses mouth that:

1. Melbourne will not tank. No chance the players will ever be told not to play for a win. Play hard, play to win.

2. Melbourne will "list manage" as best they can and is looking to win only one more game. Players like Morton and Grimes will be played in new positions. New games plans will be experimented with etc. Fringe players coming into contract negotiations will be played. Expect more debuts, expect the revolving door to increase in size and speed.

Our administration and coaches will go as far as it can to help ensure we don't win 5 matches. However will never tell the players not to try to win. Thus the administration can't guarentee we will not win 5 or more games.

You guys will all have to take my word on this as any further information will give away the meeting and my idenity to those who were there at this meeting (which was on a different topic).

I think this is where a lot of posters are butting heads: I only believe we should tank to this extent. Basically what you describe in point 2. Players don't know how to tank and should never be asked to compromise themselves.

Skills32 on D'ology is against tanking but I have gleaned that he is not against 'point 2' at all. Therefore, he is not against tanking at all.

For those who are still iffy on the subject - these are the tactics that the coaching staff will/should use to develop players, give opportunities, and plan for 2010.

- Sylvia might not be straight back in for the Tigers game, he may play a few penance games for Casey.

- Tom McNamara, Kyle Cheney, Jack Watts, Rohan Bail, Jordie McKenzie, Austin Wonaeamirri and Jake Spencer may get one or two games they don't deserve on form as a spur for the future (ala Jack Grimes' 1 game at the end of 2008).

- Valenti, Newton, Dunn, Batram, Johnson, Miller, and Buckley might see extended runs so that Bailey and the development coaches can make a judgement on their futures.

- Perrenially injured players - McLean, Moloney, Rivers, and Jamar - may be wrapped in cotton wool with an eye to 2010.

- Grimes may play RR, Petterd a wing, Bate a FF, Jurrah a HFF, Jetta a HBF, Morton a CHF, or Bennell a FP to develop different aspects of their game, and increase their base knowledge in various positions.

That is my idea of 'tanking,' I call it that because it is not trying to win a game and I think calling it 'list management,' like some people do, is being disengenuous.

Would those that oppose tanking, oppose the above measures in this losing year?

Edited July 15, 2009 by rpfc

[bush demon 2,062]

Robbo should be wrapped in cloth and mummified. Last season

Robbo, about to pass Gary Lyon as 3rd highest all-time goalkicker for MFC, and within catchable range of the great Norm Smith. Not only that, you are a club legend.

[Red Legs 0]

Wow, there's alot of threads and posts on this issue.

There is no way on god's green earth that this club will win more than 4 games.

Jim Stynes would sack the lot of them.

This is Melbourne's one and possibly last chance with this list to secure not one but two top notch players, one of them possibly already touching on elite(in it's early forms)

We would take the club to court for gross negligence if it did win a fifth game.

I would stake my new valve amplifier on this, and geez it was expensive and has the smoothest sound you could imagine

[Adam The God 30,407]

we will 6 games this season, those who are hoping for PP are dreaming.

Agreed. There's no way we'll lose to either Freo or Richmond, then there's the Kangaroos, who we'll probably beat and we're a show against Sydney. It'll be interesting to see how we play against the Swannies, because we'll give it our all this week and it's highly unlikely we'll win, whereas if things stay the same as the last two weeks against Sydney, we'll probably beat them, because they're hopeless.

That said, the Eagles have put themselves in an extremely difficult position (thanks to a 10 minute burst from Nik Nat against the Hawks) and one which I don't think they can get out of, considering the teams they have to play. If Cox plays (and add Kerr to that), the Eagles will definitely win at least one more. Freo will probably beat the Eagles in the derby though, but the Eagles will probably pick up another somewhere along the line. At this stage, it looks like there won't be a priority pick. Furthermore, I'd expect Freo, the Eagles and us to all win at least 5 games. We all play each other, there has to be losers.