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Posted (edited)

I wish to bring this issue up as a point of discussion even though I'm aware that many posters are talking about it in other threads.

Our two major problem areas are clearly our inability to convert inside 50's into genuine scoring opportunities and our inability to limit the opposition scoring when they enter their forward 50. 

For the former, the answer is seemingly more clear cut. We clearly lack players who possess high enough levels of composure, foot skills and smarts. Evidenced time and time again by our players entering the forward 50 with almost no care for what the outcome will be. Be it quick scrap kicks from stoppages from players like Petracca yesterday or pointless torpedos to a forward line that contains one key position height forward. This is not okay. I don't for one second believe that Goodwin has instructed our players to kick the ball aimlessly into our 50 in the hope that our crumbers will score from that type of play every single time. It is simply unsustainable and amatuer. There are so so many times I can see clear space for our players to kick into to the advantage of our forwards, but they simply don't. This issue hasn't been addressed at all since the beginning of the season. I believe it's a player issue and Goodwin must now either play two key talls in our forward line or send a heavy message to those who continue to move the ball into our forward line with no system to their thought. It's putrid.

The latter/second point that is less clear cut to me is the way we setup as a defensive back six. In my opinion, the aggressive zone that Goodwin has implemented is in no way conducive to the type of backmen we have who are meant to be executing this type of setup. Is it not obvious that in order to successfully execute an aggressive zone defence, you need one of two strengths as a backline unit, preferably both. Kicking skills/composure and speed?

Playing in an aggressive zone means you're guarding space rather than standing side by side to your opponent. Which also means you need fleet footed individuals who can read the play and have quick reaction times. Aside from Hunt and Frost who both lack composure and foot-skills anyway, we have nobody else in that backline who is quick. In fact, Lewis, Vince, Oscar, Lever and Jetta are all slow with Hibberd being the only one whose pace is good.. Out of that group, I'd say Lewis, Vince, Oscar and Hibberd are generally solid users of the ball however, Lewis is the only player who more often than not shows composure and calmness. The rest of our backline group are far too inconsistent with the way they handle pressure situations. (Although Lewis didn't exactly set the world on fire in that regard yesterday.)

Take spoiling as an example. Does anyone believe that Goodwin instructs 3 or 4 players to go up in a contest, all with the intention of spoiling the same ball whilst their opponents run amok once the ball hits the deck? How many times do we see opposition sides score easy goals because of this? That's only one example. But it is directly related to this defensive zone that we play. If our players don't have direct opponents as such, then your backline group need to have the utmost trust, composure and decision making skills in each other to know when to fly, or when not to etc.

I believe Goodwin needs to show some maturity and an ability to change when something isn't working and in my opinion, I'd love to see us fall back and play a much less aggressive type of zone that suits players like Oscar, who I must admit was really good yesterday. He is a one-on-one defender. Not a zone playing key position defender. Lever would benefit from a tighter playing backline group, go and look at how Adelaide play and why he was so good for them. Lewis, Vince and Jetta would all benefit from playing closer to their opponents due to their lack of speed.

I can't understand it and I really hope Goody can show some humility just like Hardwick did last year and rejig the backline structure. It's okay to be wrong as a coach.

As upset as I am with yesterday, I still hold hope that this group will click.

I'm certainly beginning to question some of Goodwin's plans though.

Thoughts?

Edited by stevethemanjordan
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11 minutes ago, stevethemanjordan said:

I wish to bring up this issue up as a point of discussion even though I'm aware that many posters are talking about it in other threads.

Our two major problem areas are clearly our inability to convert inside 50's into genuine scoring opportunities and our inability to limit the opposition scoring when they enter their forward 50. 

For the former, the answer is seemingly more clear cut. We clearly lack players who possess high enough levels of composure, foot skills and smarts. Evidenced time and time again by our players entering the forward 50 with almost no care for what the outcome will be. Be it quick scrap kicks from stoppages from players like Petracca yesterday or pointless torpedos to a forward line that contains one key position height forward. This is not okay. I don't for one second believe that Goodwin has instructed our players to kick the ball aimlessly into our 50 in the hope that our crumbers will score from that type of play every single time. It is simply unsustainable and amatuer. There are so so many times I can see clear space for our players to kick into to the advantage of our forwards, but they simply don't. This issue hasn't been addressed at all since the beginning of the season. I believe it's a player issue and Goodwin must now either play two key talls in our forward line or send a heavy message to those who continue to move the ball into our forward line with no system to their thought. It's putrid.

The latter/second point that is less clear cut to me is the way we setup as a defensive back six. In my opinion, the aggressive zone that Goodwin has implemented is in no way conducive to the type of backmen we have who are meant to be executing this type of setup. Is it not obvious that in order to successfully execute an aggressive zone defence, you need one of two strengths as a backline unit, preferably both. Kicking skills/composure and speed?

Playing in an aggressive zone means you're guarding space rather than standing side by side to your opponent. Which also means you need fleet footed individuals who can read the play and have quick reaction times. Aside from Hunt and Frost who both lack composure and foot-skills anyway, we have nobody else in that backline who is quick. In fact, Lewis, Vince, Oscar, Lever and Jetta are all slow with Hibberd being the only one whose pace is good.. Out of that group, I'd say Lewis, Vince, Oscar and Hibberd are generally solid users of the ball however, Lewis is the only player who more often than not shows composure and calmness. The rest of our backline group are far too inconsistent with the way they handle pressure situations. (Although Lewis didn't exactly set the world on fire in that regard yesterday.)

Take spoiling as an example. Does anyone believe that Goodwin instructs 3 or 4 players to go up in a contest, all with the intention of spoiling the same ball whilst their opponents run amok once the ball hits the deck? How many times do we see opposition sides score easy goals because of this? That's only one example. But it is directly related to this defensive zone that we play. If our players don't have direct opponents as such, then your backline group need to have the utmost trust, composure and decision making skills in each other to know when to fly, or when not to etc.

I believe Goodwin needs to show some maturity and an ability to change when something isn't working and in my opinion, I'd love to see us fall back and play a much less aggressive type of zone that suits players like Oscar, who I must admit was really good yesterday. He is a one-on-one defender. Not a zone playing key position defender. Lever would benefit from a tighter playing backline group, go and look at how Adelaide play and why he was so good for them. Lewis, Vince and Jetta would all benefit from playing closer to their opponents due to their lack of speed.

I can't understand it and I really hope Goody can show some humility just like Hardwick did last year and rejig the backline structure. It's okay to be wrong as a coach.

As upset as I am with yesterday, I still hold hope that this group will click.

I'm certainly beginning to question some of Goodwin's plans though.

Thoughts?

I agree with your post but I need to pull you up on this. 

You were very strong on Lever prior to the trade when many of the posters here said things along the lines of Lever is overrated and surrounded by very good players at Adelaide and is not a KPP.

If we have to model our backline around a player who is an average kick and is slow, we are going to struggle. His inability to play as a key defender is already making us have to play Frost and leaving us a runner down from the back half.

 

 

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There should never be more than 2 go up at any contest. Someone should always stay down. The other thing that annoys me it the lack of an anchor that sits goal side of the last opposition player. Phil Davis does it for GWS and some other teams do it.

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Backline...setup... structure..

Sorry...fell off perch laughing seeing those three words together !!!

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I am not sure about going full man on man, but I agree we should look to hold our defence deeper. I think defending a bit deeper would help open up our forward line as well. 

Having multiple players flying for the ball is an issue but partly reflects the selection of OMac, Frost, Lever, Wagner and Hibberd in the same side.

I think a lot of our problems defending would disappear if we could be a bit more precise with our kicks inside 50. We are leaking a lot of goals from chains starting in our 50 and then the opposition getting over the back.

 

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21 minutes ago, stevethemanjordan said:

I wish to bring this issue up as a point of discussion even though I'm aware that many posters are talking about it in other threads.

Our two major problem areas are clearly our inability to convert inside 50's into genuine scoring opportunities and our inability to limit the opposition scoring when they enter their forward 50. 

For the former, the answer is seemingly more clear cut. We clearly lack players who possess high enough levels of composure, foot skills and smarts. Evidenced time and time again by our players entering the forward 50 with almost no care for what the outcome will be. Be it quick scrap kicks from stoppages from players like Petracca yesterday or pointless torpedos to a forward line that contains one key position height forward. This is not okay. I don't for one second believe that Goodwin has instructed our players to kick the ball aimlessly into our 50 in the hope that our crumbers will score from that type of play every single time. It is simply unsustainable and amatuer. There are so so many times I can see clear space for our players to kick into to the advantage of our forwards, but they simply don't. This issue hasn't been addressed at all since the beginning of the season. I believe it's a player issue and Goodwin must now either play two key talls in our forward line or send a heavy message to those who continue to move the ball into our forward line with no system to their thought. It's putrid.

The latter/second point that is less clear cut to me is the way we setup as a defensive back six. In my opinion, the aggressive zone that Goodwin has implemented is in no way conducive to the type of backmen we have who are meant to be executing this type of setup. Is it not obvious that in order to successfully execute an aggressive zone defence, you need one of two strengths as a backline unit, preferably both. Kicking skills/composure and speed?

Playing in an aggressive zone means you're guarding space rather than standing side by side to your opponent. Which also means you need fleet footed individuals who can read the play and have quick reaction times. Aside from Hunt and Frost who both lack composure and foot-skills anyway, we have nobody else in that backline who is quick. In fact, Lewis, Vince, Oscar, Lever and Jetta are all slow with Hibberd being the only one whose pace is good.. Out of that group, I'd say Lewis, Vince, Oscar and Hibberd are generally solid users of the ball however, Lewis is the only player who more often than not shows composure and calmness. The rest of our backline group are far too inconsistent with the way they handle pressure situations. (Although Lewis didn't exactly set the world on fire in that regard yesterday.)

Take spoiling as an example. Does anyone believe that Goodwin instructs 3 or 4 players to go up in a contest, all with the intention of spoiling the same ball whilst their opponents run amok once the ball hits the deck? How many times do we see opposition sides score easy goals because of this? That's only one example. But it is directly related to this defensive zone that we play. If our players don't have direct opponents as such, then your backline group need to have the utmost trust, composure and decision making skills in each other to know when to fly, or when not to etc.

I believe Goodwin needs to show some maturity and an ability to change when something isn't working and in my opinion, I'd love to see us fall back and play a much less aggressive type of zone that suits players like Oscar, who I must admit was really good yesterday. He is a one-on-one defender. Not a zone playing key position defender. Lever would benefit from a tighter playing backline group, go and look at how Adelaide play and why he was so good for them. Lewis, Vince and Jetta would all benefit from playing closer to their opponents due to their lack of speed.

I can't understand it and I really hope Goody can show some humility just like Hardwick did last year and rejig the backline structure. It's okay to be wrong as a coach.

As upset as I am with yesterday, I still hold hope that this group will click.

I'm certainly beginning to question some of Goodwin's plans though.

Thoughts?

The loss has affected you greatly Steve? Great piece mate, if only our team cared just as much.👍

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To be serious for a moment ; i had great expectations of the "wall of hades" evolving out on the hb line. Lever and Pig using their best telepathy and ranging to thwart the incoming sortes. 

Wtf happened. Instead of a fort we've got a sieve !

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Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, Watts the matter said:

I agree with your post but I need to pull you up on this. 

You were very strong on Lever prior to the trade when many of the posters here said things along the lines of Lever is overrated and surrounded by very good players at Adelaide and is not a KPP.

If we have to model our backline around a player who is an average kick and is slow, we are going to struggle. His inability to play as a key defender is already making us have to play Frost and leaving us a runner down from the back half.

 

 

Lever benefitted from having a backline that played a less aggressive zone and a more one-on-one style setup which allowed him to play his natural role as an elite intercept player. He was number one in the comp. We're doing him no favours in the way we're playing as a defensive setup. No favours.

I'm similarly confused at why we'd go so hard after Lever and then play him in in a defensive structure that doesn't allow him to do what he does best. But this is nothing to do with him. It's to do with our style of defence.

It's the same with Oscar. After seeing him play so well yesterday, I can see him being a successful full back down the track once he builds his body a bit more. But again, playing him in a zone that needs players to guard space is not a strength of his. His strengths don't lie there. 

We need to rijig asap.

Edited by stevethemanjordan
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14 minutes ago, Fat Tony said:

I am not sure about going full man on man, but I agree we should look to hold our defence deeper. I think defending a bit deeper would help open up our forward line as well. 

Having multiple players flying for the ball is an issue but partly reflects the selection of OMac, Frost, Lever, Wagner and Hibberd in the same side.

I think a lot of our problems defending would disappear if we could be a bit more precise with our kicks inside 50. We are leaking a lot of goals from chains starting in our 50 and then the opposition getting over the back.

 

Good points.

They do all naturally gravitate to an aerial contest but I still firmly believe that it's partly to do with the way play as a unit. We're a rolling defence which means players are frequently swapping on opponents. And that is problematic when there's an aerial contest. It constantly looks like our players aren't sure of where their opponent is so they all fly.

 

6 minutes ago, Ethan Tremblay said:

What’s happened to Hibberd? 

 

Agree, no idea.

Down in so many areas. Not as clean when the ball is on the ground and hasn't been anywhere near good enough with his ball use. 

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OMac is showing he will make it. Hibberd, Jetta & Lever showed last year they are very good. Hunt needs to come back in. That gives us five. Who complements these five players. We seem to give away a lot of rover or scrounged type goals, look at first half yesterday.

If Lewis or Vince take a spot, we need someone with speed who stays down, not sure who it is but boy we need it!

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10 minutes ago, stevethemanjordan said:

Lever benefitted from having a backline that played a less aggressive zone and a more one-on-one style setup which allowed him to play his natural role as an elite intercept player. He was number one in the comp. We're doing him no favours in the way we're playing as a defensive setup. No favours.

I'm similarly confused at why we'd go so hard after Lever and then play him in in a defensive structure that doesn't allow him to do what he does best. But this is nothing to do with him. It's to do with our style of defence.

It's the same with Oscar. After seeing him play so well yesterday, I can see him being a successful full back down the track once he builds his body a bit more. But again, playing him in a zone that needs players to guard space is not a strength of his. His strengths don't lie there. 

We need to rijig asap.

Nutshell

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It's not just the backline, but the whole structure or rather lack of. Far too often our entire team, plus theirs, congested themselves down a wing (~1/6th of the ground). We had no one in the forward 50, no one out wide, just all down a wing. So the ball was regularly kicked to a 50/50 contest and if it went to ground we were under pressure. Hawks just spread and as they have for years under Clarkson used the short and mid range kicks to hit targets and open the game up. Our movement is typically to a contest, under pressure, and inefficient.

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Hunt,  Hibberd,  Lever and Jetta have been woeful.

All of them can play and all of them were great in 2017.

Really, really odd.

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Hibberd seems to me to be playing further up the ground than he was last year. he was really the rock in the last line. Now he appears to be a link man.

 

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1 minute ago, jnrmac said:

Hibberd seems to me to be playing further up the ground than he was last year. he was really the rock in the last line. Now he appears to be a link man.

 

And how f'd is that !!

The link men ought to be the likes of Hunt and Lewis ( if in form )

Beggars belief

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Posted (edited)

Something is a miss and yesterday I think it finally exposed itself four issues

1. Jetta is playing injured

2. Transition is slow to get back .Viney will fix that.

3. Hibberd is being made to be accountable,  similar to Heath Shaw. All of his possessions are under pressure and this is effecting his kicking.

4. Lack of pace.

 

 

 

Edited by shorty
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Jetta

.. definitely something amiss here for sure. Off the boil big time. 

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As straight a kick as TMac is up forward I think we need him as an anchor down back permanently and play Weid for game time, he'll never achieve anything playing sloppy, muddy, windy VFL footy.

Backline may look something like this:

B: Hunt, O McDonald, Jetta

HB: Lever, T McDonald, Hibberd

 

HF:............, Hogan,..............

FF:............,Weideman,.........

Just my thoughts but Frost is not the answer

Agree with what you have said though.

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43 minutes ago, shorty said:

Something is a miss and yesterday I think it finally exposed itself four issues

1. Jetta is playing injured

2. Transition is slow to get back .Viney will fix that.

3. Hibberd is being made to be accountable,  similar to Heath Shaw. All of his possessions are under pressure and this is effecting his kicking.

4. Lack of pace.

 

 

 

We are trying to defend the forward half of the ground and we are to slow to get into our back half.  Teams can see you get over own forward press and you will score

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They were always stuffed because we couldn't get clean use or move the ball forward - no defence will look good in that scenario. 

However, 
Tackles - Omac and Lever both had 0. Jetta and Frost had 1. I don't believe there's any excuse for lack of effort and given Hawthorn had 40 more tackles then us and won the possession battle it doesn't read well. 

Another frustration watching yesterday was the amount of times we spoiled or attempted too and either didn't clear the danger zone or it went out the back. If you can't avoid the danger, do something different. So frustrating and I think they scored 5 of the first 7 goals from our defensive errors. 

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I've got confidence that Hibberd and Jetta in particular will find form and this will be less of an issue, but at the moment it seems like the back-line has no leadership. Not that we don't have leaders down there, it just seems like some confusion as to who should be directing the group, which means we've got guys out of position all the time. Last year we had Hibberd, TMac (when there) and Jetta directing the back-line. This year it seems more like Lewis, Vince and Lever.

While Lewis and Vince are experienced, they are not pure defenders and I think are still trying to be too aggressive which lead to most of our guys playing in front yesterday, on a wet day it was easy for the Hawks to send it over the back for easy goals.

The only one who has improved is OMac who has done a great job, and while some might point to Ben Brown getting a few on him, there was probably only 1 of his goals that you could directly attribute to him. However, he's not yet a leader back there, more the foot soldier, give him a job and he's doing it. 

I can't say I see any of the others being given a job and doing just that, they all at various stages seem to be swapping and changing what their job back there is, pure defender, shut down, interceptor or spoiler - not that they shouldn't do more than 1 thing, but it's knowing when to go and when to hold back. That's the job of the on field leaders but they'll all seem a bit confused at the moment.

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Posted (edited)

We play extra numbers around the ball and try hard to press the ball inside 50, and keep it there, which leads to two things:

1. Our forward 50 is congested making it hard to get clear cut chances i.e. poor efficiency in our attacking 50

2. We are open and exposed when the opposition gets it out i.e. hard to stop teams scoring in our defensive 50

I've said it a few times, but this is my issue with the current game plan, and I'm not convinced it is sustainable.

Edited by Forest Demon

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48 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

Jetta

.. definitely something amiss here for sure. Off the boil big time. 

His concussion issues are a big factor in play here. Goes under radar of other more public concussion sufferers..but make no mistake, its cruelling his game.

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When we halve the centre and hold the ball forward, it looks OK.  When that failed on Sunday, the backline was exposed.  I imagine any Defensive setup would have been horribly exposed in these circumstances.  Biggest failure was tagging Mitchell with Nate.  He was busy, they were all over Clarry, and we had no one to give us drive from the middle.  Second biggest failure was continuing with the biggest failure after about 1/2 time...

Anyway, onto topic:

Oscar has been doing well in 1:1's and his field kicking is much improved.  He is a lock at FB now.

Jetta?  gone missing.  Very unusual, but he is along way from top form.  He also seems SLOW.

Lever - my god, did he stink up the place on Sunday.  He has been poor, but he was an absolute liability on the weekend.  Every kick pumped to the wing (straight to a hawks player), and terrible off the deck (cost us a goal directly by his fumbling).  Needs to go back.

Pig - has been good and OK, so gets some slack.

Lewis - when we are winning, he will look good.  Under pressure, he is a liability.  SLOW.  Old Grandpa needs to go sit on the Casey porch.

Frost - needs to settle, petal.  Needs some guidance on if he is a man on man defender or an attacking half back.  Boy cant be both.

So, the biggest issue with our game style is when it goes over the back.  We have no speed to go back with fast leading forwards or wingers.  This means any over-the back is a goal opportunity to the opposition.  Our game has to be built on 2 way running.  The high press is nice, provided we dont let them kick over it (Billy-Ray's torp to kneeboy).  Also, the hawks had #31 stationed in the centre circle for large period to run like a madman forward if they broke out of our HB line.  This and the Torp leave us vulnerable.

 My suggestion:

Oscar at FB, taking their FF.  Hunt and at least one other foot foot-speed (perhaps J Smith) to run both ways.  Angus to be groomed to replace Lewis.  Lever needs to go back to Casey to work out how he can play in the system, and not get games on his reputation.  His role in such a high press needs to be reviewed/redesigned/refined.

We could potentially try Bugg back to give Jetta a rest.  (casey for form)

Perhaps we could look at using the centre station idea to have a designated speedster to cover back and protect our ahrses if they get over the high press.

If Goodie is serious, he will send a strong message at the selection table.  If you play that Shyte, then you can do it at Casey.

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