POST MATCH DISCUSSION - Round 3

[spirit of norm smith 12,899]

this loss particularly hurts because we did the hard yards yet everything went against us.

lots of positives

jayden hunt is a star    Jonesy is a star   oliver is going to be a-grade   watts has a bigger heart than many demonlanders know    billy stretch is developing nicely    

we lost because

1. our inaccurate kicking

2. cats accurate kicking

3. last 3 minutes of the 3rd quarter and first 7 minutes of the last.

4. maxy gawn getting injured

5. umpires still puzzling me

6. we are still developing and learning through how to win

7. missing Lewis and Hogan hurt us

anb's backwards kick was a shocker but he will learn (hopefully)

 

Edited April 9, 2017 by spirit of norm smith
spelling

[Macca 16,173]

22 minutes ago, bush demon said:

We were scared of the goal sticks and in awe of Geelong. Haven't choked so much since '87 prelim.

We did choke but It's not something that the team and coaching staff would expect to become an ongoing issue.  It was just a bad day at the office although Kent needs to get better.  The advice to give is don't over-think it and keep it simple. 

We've got bigger fish to fry with Gawn now being out ... as good as Spencer might be he's got big shoes to fill.  And we need a big body down forward as well as a 2nd ruck who can do more than just compete.

[DeeZone 7,707]

We have come a very very long way in the past three years and should have snared a win yesterday, we dominated the play on numerous occasions only to kick a point and cough up the ball to a very hated enemy over and over again, yet still hung in there. This loss should hurt the group and make them stronger in their resolve going forward. a lot to like about this group. Go Dee's!!!!

[Phadraig 760]

Why has the HTB rule suddenly changed again? Players were getting caught cold left and right but the umpire seemed to have swallowed his whistle. Oliver got away with more than a couple of sneaky throws as well.

[olisik 4,060]

4 disposals to Weiderman and missing an easy set shot should send him back to the 2s. We can't have any passengers if we want to play finals.

[fr_ap 2,144]

What hasn't been noticed by many was the work and time Geelong put into Oliver. 

Make no mistake - Blicavs played a hard hard tag - a good choice as Clarrie couldnt get his arms up into the clear as Blicavs was so tall. Then he used his running capacity to run off him, and kicked a few. 

Clarrie didnt have the tank to go with him and this was one match up we didnt fix the longer it went on. Cost us offensively and defensively and was a rare piece of good coaching by Scott. 

Other than that - Geelong have no system. None. Their entire game revolves around selwood or dangerfield winning the clearance and tumble punting it to hawkins and hoping for the best. Some of their supporters were incredibly smug in the last and a few were complaining about the vocal dees fans.

Well, they managed to beat a team that beat themselves. I can't remember a team so reliant on so few players, it's absurd!

[Akum 2,660]

It's the old story. Have to convert dominance into scoreboard pressure.

[Rodney (Balls) Grinter 10,579]

2 hours ago, bush demon said:

We were scared of the goal sticks and in awe of Geelong. Haven't choked so much since '87 prelim.

Yeah, but thankfully it didn't cost us a grand final birth this time.

[Binmans PA 26,026]

2 hours ago, Older demon said:

To me, a measure of our development will be seen in how we deal with this loss.

 In the past we would look for positives and be pleased with the effort. Yes it is a young team and incredibly young inexperienced forward line. But we lost! This was a game where we gave ourselves every chance, had more inside 50's and shots at goal and didn't take our chances. The collective player and coaching group should be bleeding. Other teams have injuries and the Hawthorn and Bulldogs mantra is a soldier goes down another steps up. We should be filthy about losing and not happy about anything and take it out on Freemantle at home. Good teams hate losing and go up a notch the next game. This is what I want to see next week. Minimal changes and those who were down yesterday to lift.

Great games from Jones (you champion), Hunt, Watts, Clarry, Stretch, ANB and Kent

Spot on. I woke up filthy this morning. I can't wait to take it out on Freo next week. I hope the players and coaches woke up feeling the same thing. I want to smash Fyfe, McCarthy and the Hills.

[Demon Disciple 10,928]

16 minutes ago, A F said:

Spot on. I woke up filthy this morning. I can't wait to take it out on Freo next week. I hope the players and coaches woke up feeling the same thing. I want to smash Fyfe, McCarthy and the Hills.

Agree, it's the most hollow i have felt after a loss in a long, long time.

[chook fowler 18,224]

4 hours ago, dazzledavey36 said:

So just been reported that Bernie Vince could potentially miss a week with a toe injury.

FMD we just can't get a clear run so far this year after coming off a year with barely any injuries.

Fken toes. Sick of the bastards

[Binmans PA 26,026]

52 minutes ago, fr_ap said:

What hasn't been noticed by many was the work and time Geelong put into Oliver. 

Make no mistake - Blicavs played a hard hard tag - a good choice as Clarrie couldnt get his arms up into the clear as Blicavs was so tall. Then he used his running capacity to run off him, and kicked a few. 

Clarrie didnt have the tank to go with him and this was one match up we didnt fix the longer it went on. Cost us offensively and defensively and was a rare piece of good coaching by Scott. 

Other than that - Geelong have no system. None. Their entire game revolves around selwood or dangerfield winning the clearance and tumble punting it to hawkins and hoping for the best. Some of their supporters were incredibly smug in the last and a few were complaining about the vocal dees fans.

Well, they managed to beat a team that beat themselves. I can't remember a team so reliant on so few players, it's absurd!

I get this just about every week, but this overweight Geelong supporter wanted to start a fight with me for talking. I wasn't swearing, I was simply my vocal self. Occasionally, antagonistic but mostly just watching the football. His on the spectrum 6 year old son also didn't like me talking or supporting my team. In fact, he would turn around and give my sister the death-stare whenever she spoke, so I decided I'd sit behind him and block his vision of her. When Kent scored his goal to put us up by 15 points, the kid was livid and the fat-her couldn't contain himself.

Having been down to Geelong many times, for a club that has still only won 11 flags (3 in the past 15 years), they've been a thoroughly unsuccessful and underachieving club for just as long as us, and their supporters have no excuse for smugness.

They're going nowhere and Scott, like his brother, is an ordinary coach. 

Edited April 9, 2017 by A F

[dees189227 10,761]

I think Rohan Connoly summed it up in the age today when he said in his last line the 2 suspended players would have been handy yesterday. I think Lewis would have helped contain Danger or Selwood and probably just settled us down and of course Hogan would have been a good target up forward 

[Binmans PA 26,026]

9 minutes ago, dees189227 said:

I think Rohan Connoly summed it up in the age today when he said in his last line the 2 suspended players would have been handy yesterday. I think Lewis would have helped contain Danger or Selwood and probably just settled us down and of course Hogan would have been a good target up forward 

I haven't read the article, but if that was the crux of his comments about Melbourne, then he's got no idea. Those guys not being in didn't lose it for us. I'm getting sick of reading this. Our own poor kicking cost us the game. Had we kicked straight, we would have won comfortably. 

[sue 8,424]

2 minutes ago, A F said:

I haven't read the article, but if that was the crux of his comments about Melbourne, then he's got no idea. Those guys not being in didn't lose it for us. I'm getting sick of reading this. Our own poor kicking cost us the game. Had we kicked straight, we would have won comfortably. 

If we had kicked straight, yes we would have won comfortably.  But I think you can successfuly argue that even with the bad kicking, if we had those 2 players we would have been more likely to win.

[Binmans PA 26,026]

10 minutes ago, sue said:

If we had kicked straight, yes we would have won comfortably.  But I think you can successfuly argue that even with the bad kicking, if we had those 2 players we would have been more likely to win.

You couId, but I don't like excuses given how much we dominated them yesterday, without Gawn and without Hogan and Lewis. We don't need one or two guys to win matches. We can win matches without them and we'll show it next week.

Edited April 9, 2017 by A F

[Demon Dynasty 15,396]

5 hours ago, beelzebub said:

Over the journey I, and many here, have wondered what Watts had done to disenfranchise himself to many team mates on game days. His ability to find space, often the right space, would go ignored or overlooked. Terribly frustrating to watch let alone for Jack to deal with.

Today should if nothing else engender Jack to the playing core. He climbed a mountain in that game. Understable he was stuffed.

He wasn't without any mistakes but all in allI hope he's now 100% visible.

He is going to make more mistakes under the extra fatigue from rucking which you are probably alluding to BB. I would rather have him out of constant resting ruck duties with the exception of sharing some around the ground ruck work up forward when spencil/maxy (or Ped) are on the bench.

I realise yesterday was a one off (hopefully) but by allowing Watts to execute  at his optimum he can finish off his good work in general play to maximum effect. We will be the beneficiary of what happens as a result and mostly on the scoreboard. Along with the Jones boy and Clarry he has the highest score chain involvements most weeks, yesterday excluded due to the unexpected ruck commitment. We are going to suffer on the scoreboard when he is rucking in the center bounces although there are of course times when he will retrieve when the ball hits the deck and impact. But still.... just rotate through the middle as a tall mid fielder and get maximum impact pls.

[Demon Dynasty 15,396]

5 hours ago, Macca said:

We're still going to have a glaring weakness at 2nd ruck despite Spencer being available ... Geelong yesterday weren't able to take full advantage (their clearance work was messy)  They won 56 hit-outs and many of them were to advantage.  A good team will kill us with those sort of numbers.

Gawn going down was an accident waiting to happen and a number here were saying as much ... and Watts is not a ruckman - he tried hard and competed adequately but was mostly outpointed & outclassed (in the ruck only)  Goodwin even had to throw Smith in the ruck at one stage.

It's often been said that you only know the value of a ruckman when you haven't got one and yesterday was a case in point. 

With Hogan out we were left without a big-bodied forward who could do all the things a big-bodied forward can do (Weideman,  Hannan,  Smith & Harmes were collectively useless in that area yesterday)  Gawn & Spencer could have played that role yesterday (in tandem)

With Hogan back in, Spencer then often becomes surplus to needs (but not always) Each situation & circumstance is different to the other.  We could cop being at a disadvantage for 20% of the game (in the ruck) as we'd be strong in other areas ... we'd have our big bodied forward (Hogan) with a few tall 3rd forwards to help out.  As well as that we'd be able to play another midfielder instead of Spencer.  And ... we'd often have a dominant ruckman for 80% of the games (Gawn shouldn't be rucking for more than 80% of the games) 

I made the same (above) argument before the start of the season so it's not a hindsight observation.  It's a horses-for-courses argument with regards to the ruck position.

The other area where we lost the game was our utterly putrid kicking for goal.  We choked big time. 

A great summary of our 2nd ruck problem Macca.

Had we had a genuine 2nd option to just evened up most of the contests against Smith & Blics for the 2nd half yesterday, this would have freed up Watts to play his usual "Quarterback" role around the ground and up forward. We would have probably won this match 7 out of 10 times with Watts running rampant. I say probably though as i have never seen such ugly set shot kicking as i saw yesterday from so many players. We may still have kicked ourselves out of it.

[Macca 16,173]

Just now, Rusty Nails said:

A great summary of our 2nd ruck problem Macca.

Had we had a genuine 2nd option to just evened up most of the contests against Smith & Blics for the 2nd half yesterday, this would have freed up Watts to play his usual "Quarterback" role around the ground and up forward. We would have probably won this match 7 out of 10 times with Watts running rampant. I say probably though as i have never seen such ugly set shot kicking as i saw yesterday from so many players. We may still have kicked ourselves out of it.

The coaching staff can only try and control the areas that can be controlled so the numerous missed shots can't be planned for ... as frustrated & annoyed I'm sure all of us were yesterday, we know that the kicking for goal isn't going to be an issue (unless it is and then we really are in allsortsa)

But the 2nd ruck issue can be addressed and controlled - I'm by no means advocating that Spencer should ever be a permanent fixture either.  It's horses for courses and because Hogan was out, he probably should have been brought in (and then out as soon as Hogan returns)

Of course, we'll never know now but the workload that we ask of the beast that is Gawn was always pushing the envelope.  He doesn't ruck like Jamar did - Max is another midfielder so 75% - 80% game time on the ball is more than enough.  That means that our 2nd ruck needs to be more than just a fill-in.

In a nutshell,  Max being as good as he is means he needs to spend less time on the ball (not more time)  Any gun midfielder needs his time on the ball monitored and Max is no different.

[Binmans PA 26,026]

25 minutes ago, Rusty Nails said:

A great summary of our 2nd ruck problem Macca.

Had we had a genuine 2nd option to just evened up most of the contests against Smith & Blics for the 2nd half yesterday, this would have freed up Watts to play his usual "Quarterback" role around the ground and up forward. We would have probably won this match 7 out of 10 times with Watts running rampant. I say probably though as i have never seen such ugly set shot kicking as i saw yesterday from so many players. We may still have kicked ourselves out of it.

I think we need to back our system. I don't want to see us select a player on the basis of potential injuries or a second ruck. Guys who can play multiple positions need to step up and take that second ruck position. I'll reiterate again, we would have won yesterday had we kicked straight and that's without a traditional second ruck. 

[Demon Dynasty 15,396]

5 hours ago, DominatrixTyson said:

Why did you read into my comment? I wasn't criticising ANB overall performance at all. Just how bad that 30m backward pass was. Worst play of the year. 

For us or the whole comp DT!??

3 hours ago, small but forward said:

My boy and I went along last night. A few things I came away from the game with:

1 - hindsight is great when it comes to team selections, I was happy with the lineup going into the game. Clearly losing Max completely altered the fwd line structure with our experienced tall  then going into the ruck (magnificent effort, Watts, take a bow). Hard for the other two fwd talls with less than 10 games between them to absorb the extra load.

2 - I thought our midfield pressure was terrific all night

3 - the smug Geelong supporters sitting behind us won't be smug for long, they have far too many passengers and are not going to win it this year with efforts like that

4 - even with a relatively inexperienced fwd line with Watts in the ruck, we still looked dangerous with multiple avenues to goal. Nothing more to be said on scoring accuracy.

5 - I remember sitting at the punt rd end in 2014 QB clash when we kicked 3 for the game. Last night was a completely different type of frustration. We are not far away now

6 - as much as I don't rate Oscar, we need to get another 30 games into him as quickly as possible. Our premiership window is cracking open.

i can't think of another time when I walked away as happy with a loss.

I didn't walk away happy small. Maybe i was on the wrong amber or something. Pretty sure they water it down a little at these venues now

Edited April 9, 2017 by Rusty Nails

[Demon Dynasty 15,396]

3 hours ago, spirit of norm smith said:

this loss particularly hurts because we did the hard yards yet everything went against us.

lots of positives

jayden hunt is a star    Jonesy is a star   oliver is going to be a-grade   watts has a bigger heart than many demonlanders know    billy stretch is developing nicely    

we lost because

1. our inaccurate kicking

2. cats accurate kicking

3. last 3 minutes of the 3rd quarter and first 7 minutes of the last.

4. maxy gawn getting injured

5. umpires still puzzling me

6. we are still developing and learning through how to win

7. missing Lewis and Hogan hurt us

anb's backwards kick was a shocker but he will learn (hopefully)

 

Thought i saw Hunt grow an extra leg yesterday if that's possible! What a performance from the young bloke. Seemed to get better and better as the game went on also. The last 10 he petered out like most others.

Plenty of Kudos for Melksham and T-Mac down back who i thought played their part superbly under all sorts of pressure.

Edited April 9, 2017 by Rusty Nails

[Macca 16,173]

Just now, A F said:

I think we need to back our system. I don't want to see us select a player on the basis of potential injuries or a second ruck. Guys who can play multiple positions need to step up and take that second ruck position. I'll reiterate again, we would have won yesterday had we kicked straight and that's without a traditional second ruck. 

Some of us are (and were) looking at more than just one game AF ... we're having a separate debate where both arguments can be right.

You're right, our kicking for goal yesterday cost us a victory but against a better opponent where we do kick well for goal, the rucking can then become an issue.  And we might find that out as early as next week.

My issue with Jack is that if Max rucks for say 75%* of the time, then Watts can then get exposed (if he has to ruck for 25% of the time)  By the way, Watts did very well as a follower/midfielder yesterday but his actual rucking was below par. 

The Cats had 56 tap-outs to Gawns 20 and Watts got 9 (and I'm not sure that any of his 9 taps were to advantage)

With Spencer now taking on the main duties the coaching staff are now going to have to come up with a decent plan.  And Spencer isn't in the class of Max Gawn so the plan has to be at least somewhat different.

 

*75% or perhaps 80% should be the maximum amount of time that Gawn plays on the ball. 

 

[picket fence 15,118]

I am hearing very big whispers that Max Gawn's Hamstring is worse than first thought Sorry if anyone else has posted this previously. Got it from a mate who is not often wrong. I hope this time he is!

I am hearing tendon is cactus and surgery option being considered. 

If so could be 8-12 weeks. Dont shoot the messenger

Edited April 9, 2017 by picket fence

[Binmans PA 26,026]

8 minutes ago, Macca said:

Some of us are (and were) looking at more than just one game AF ... we're having a separate debate where both arguments can be right.

You're right, our kicking for goal yesterday cost us a victory but against a better opponent where we do kick well for goal, the rucking can then become an issue.  And we might find that out as early as next week.

My issue with Jack is that if Max rucks for say 75%* of the time, then Watts can then get exposed (if he has to ruck for 25% of the time)  By the way, Watts did very well as a follower/midfielder yesterday but his actual rucking was below par. 

The Cats had 56 tap-outs to Gawns 20 and Watts got 9 (and I'm not sure that any of his 9 taps were to advantage)

With Spencer now taking on the main duties the coaching staff are now going to have to come up with a decent plan.  And Spencer isn't in the class of Max Gawn so the plan has to be at least somewhat different.

 

*75% or perhaps 80% should be the maximum amount of time that Gawn plays on the ball. 

 

I don't subscribe to this for the majority of teams though. Against 'a better opponent' than Geelong, it'll only be the top 4 and maybe one or two other sides. If you look at the top sides, with the exception of GWS with Mumford and maybe Adelaide with Jacobs (who is overrated for mine, but a decent ruck), this isn't the strong suit of many clubs.

Certainly, we lose an advantage we had by having Gawn, but the second ruck 'problem' as people put it, doesn't phase me and it shouldn't phase the MC.

And our coaches should already have a decent system to go to when another ruckman is dominating Max or we only break even in the hit outs or get beaten. That'll be the plan we go to. But I suspect some of this is cross purpose talking.