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It's been awhile but I was stoked to attend my 1st training session for the year. Picked a cracking day for it....... Firstly, I don't understand how WW can make sense of the drills and post at the same time. Full respect! Takes me long enough to just work out who's doing what. Training has definitely improved every year for the last few years. The intensity is up, the talk is up, the couches involvement is up and most importantly the skills are up. The music is odd but not in a bad way and I get the theory behind it. There also seem to be almost as many staff as players! Maybe that's where Roosy's salary has gone... The drills have been covered well so I don't have much to add there. There's not much down time it's go, go go. The players need to be switched on mentally as well. It was a tough day for it and the coaches didn't go easy on them, it was pretty brutal. My comments for what it's worth: Loved seeing Lewis finally. Now that I was really paying attention jeez he's a beautiful kick of the footy. A really good influence on the group too. It's not his 'on field coaching. At one stage, when he and Trac were sitting out the match sim, Trac was getting really into it from the boundary calling out instructions. Lewis told him back it off and let the team out there talk. Players that stood out to me today were Hunt, Jones, Lewis, Hogan, Watts and Viney. But most players were pretty good, also Pederson, Melksham, Johnstone, Garlett, Gawn, Vandenberg and Trengove. Hunt looks so full of confidence, he's a pleasure to watch (that sounds bad doesn't it..). I'm glad to read Oliver might have had hay fever, not surprising either considering the conditions, as he seemed out of it. Not much talk or involvement with team mates, looked cooked and spent a fair bit of time coming off. His skills were good when I watched him in drills but he was struggling to keep up today. One of my favs to watch! Weideman and O Mac have definitely bulked up, but will still take a couple of years. Loved my first glimpse of Johnstone. Very lively and bit of x-factor about him! Fitness-wise you can tell his a draftee but he was pushing and trying his heart out. Team mates were getting around him in a big way. Looks to have talent. I didnt' realise Bugg was such a talker, in the instructive/leadership type way not the lippy fella we know he can be. Hibberd nor Melksham appeared to be off the pace after a year off, though it is only training. As others have mentioned Spencer was everywhere, though his kicks were regularly not to advantage. They were more safe than risky though so perhaps it's him trying to play to his ability. I was bummed not to see Brayshaw, he must've left before I arrived. Just saw Tyson and Jetta packing up and heading back. I liked Troy Chaplin's coaching. He would run through the different aspects of the match sim with whichever team had just rotated out. Getting too distracted by the tennis now so that'll do it. Thanks to all the other attendees who've been getting me through this preseason!

Re: Jake Spencer and Jack Trengove Neither have had a real pre season for years that would have prepared them adequately for match days. That they have shown improved ability following an unbroken pre season to date should be a positive for the club and all supporters. Spencil is a big bodied ruckman who has speed, grunt and endurance and can be competitive at the highest level. How many clubs can boast 2 such ruckmen? How do we know if the FD is not developing a strategy around creating an imbalance on the ground and using Max and Pencil at the same time? How many opposition clubs would be stretched? There is a simplistic notion that modern footy is all about speed and spread. But really it is as much about creating imbalances on the field. Imagine Spencil or Max resting in the forward line and taking away Jesse Hogan's gorilla opponent or alternating off the bench so that there is always a rested ruckman on the ground or dividing the ground in two (back line and centre, forward line) and sharing the load.. Players are here to play roles for the benefit of the team, not impress the critics with their speed and skills. I recall that both played in the great victory at Geelong in 2015. Jack was a champion before his injury and deserves a fair go to prove his value again. This constant obsession with foot speed is becoming tedious. Spread does not rely on speed, it relies on having the footy smarts to be able to read the play and anticipate when to go and where before the opposition. So long as he gets to the right positions and gets there without an opponent, he can walk as far as I care. As for defensive speed, if finds himself on a faster player (which can happen to any player except Hunt) then it is up to the on field or off field leadership to make the necessary adjustment. That is what good coaching is meant to do. There are enough coaches to go around. Give Jake and Jack a chance and don't dismiss their prospects too soon. I hope they surprise.

Dazzle I've been a track watcher for many years now and I've learned it's very difficult to judge how a lot of things on the track translate to game situations. For example slick ball movement at training turns into preseason rust in games. I put Trengove's pace in this category. I think if you went and looked at last years training threads you'd see similar comments from many regarding the "return" of Trengove's pace. My position is that I can see no difference to other years and until I do I'll remain sceptical. In the 10 v 10 drills we are doing at present it's very easy to find space and have time to dispose although yesterdays session was more contested. Nobody is caught out for pace in these drills to date. My view is pretty simple and again differs from Saty. Trengove is all class. If he has the pace he had when he first came he'd be one of the first picked each week, he wouldn't be in the pack chasing the last few spots in the best 22. If he doesn't have that pace he'll struggle to sustain an AFL career IMO. Those that compare him to greats such as Bartel, Lewis and Mitchell (to name a few) are underrating those players pace IMO. In the last few seasons Trengove hasn't been just slow, he's been painfully slow, slower than Brock McLean who couldn't chase down any of the three players I've mentioned. I freely admit we won't know until firstly the practice matches start and more probably the season proper. But training is like dancing with your sister and can be quite misleading. Spencer looked fantastic yesterday but few think that will translate into a best 22 position. Jack has looked good this preseason and we all hope it will translate into the season but I doubt it will. It's just a view.

I've been to a few training sessions this year and I've been really pleased with the continual development of Vince, Jones and AVB. They've really grown into their roles and offer great voice and leadership. The group as a whole are more vocal and self assured then I've seen in recent years. They just keep ticking off all the boxes and have a real look of determination in them. I think we will see a much improved Vince, Jones and AVB this year.

I largely agree with you, I remember getting excited when I saw James Strauss train the house down one day! I think what you can do is see if players are doing things in training that they haven't done in training before. I'm a bit of a Pencil fan, reckon he gets a bum rap from some. His kicking is now pretty good, I'd rather him having a shot for goal than Max. Pencil's ball drop is very close to his foot which makes it look awkward but quite reliable. He's also ok kicking around the ground where he has time but, like Max, hold on to your hat if he's under pressure. I think what Pencil was doing on Monday was moving much better and making himself a target which he's not done much in the past. But what caught the eye was the clean high marks he was taking but they were admittedly against much shorter opponents. Nevertheless they were clean and contested. He's always been quick for a big bloke and he's now much stronger than he was. If Max goes down everyone thinks we go down with him. I don't agree. Pencil will be competitive, he just won't be in the top category of rucks. But the point that is often made is we are now seeing with all players the benefit of proper development. Pencil has been at MFC under Bailey and Neeld before Roos arrived. But frankly I think the major influence is McCartney, wherever he goes young players flourish. And our list was just about a green field site when he arrived which means there was a lot of improvement in the older players as well. The observation that all players are improving is most likely correct.

Very well said, VP. The things we can take away from training that are worthwhile are ideas around the game plan and where they are trialing certain players in new positions, such as someone making the step up from a flank to a midfield role. How they are going at training is of no real interest - as long as they are all putting in 100%, which they would be. Take Jake Spencer for example - it sounds like he is training the house down and looking good in the match sims. I can't get excited about that. I still see the same big, lumbering bloke who is an average kick and offers little around the ground. With any player I'm more than happy to be proven wrong, but I'm not a fan of making statements of break out years and so forth based on their efforts at training. It means very little. Matt Jones was supposedly best 22 during training last year and ended up being delisted. That's just another example of reading too much into training. He looked great in January, yet ended up being the same player in June. It's great to hear about the game plan, how we are looking to move the ball quickly and where certain players are spending their time during these drills. The rest is not as important.

So much text on an ordinary player. And I'll add to it... Spencer can play some good footy, as evidenced by his good performance in Gawn's breakout game against Geelong in 2015. As Vogon asserts, hell be good backup if Gawn goes down. But that's it. He's backup.

Ron, mate, I usually like your posts: but there is absolutely no way that Lewis will be co-captain with Jones. Jones has earned the right to captain the club on his own two feet, and making Lewis captain diminishes this. It also smacks of the 'Melbourne of old' STMJ was referring to: a premiership gun falls in our laps and is made captain without playing a game. I actually think even including him in the leadership group is a bit of a stretch (but understand where the sentiment comes from). In all honesty, I think he would refuse if he were offered co-captaincy anyway (which he won't be).

Speed, hardness, courage, contested work, good mark for his size, kicks goals off half back... in his first year. Yeah, overrated.

I understand the clothing range will be liked by many. But I'm not one for "Jones Nerd" tees, "Ugly" tees and sweaters, large retro logos, "Army Hoodies" or "2 tees in a tin". I'm older and want to support my club but in an understated sort of way. I also play golf, where a lot of the time dress rules prohibit logos and loud slogans. I don't even want "Member 2017" added because it immediately dates the item. I did look at the polos. The 2017 Premium Polo is only available in two sizes (S and XL), and has no product information. The 2017 members polo is "sold out" in every size except S, and lists "back print" under the information (but doesn't show a picture of what's printed on the back). The Media Polo is plastered with the commercial logos of our sponsors. The 2017 Logo Polo is already sold out in L and XL. So there is no apparel at all in the Demon Shop that I'd buy. I think they could do more with understated but quality clothing for older members like me.

Oh freddled gruntbuggly, Thy micturations are to me, As pluried gabbleblotchits. On a lurgid bee

I'm looking forward to the season proper so I don't have to continually encounter self-annointed "expert training comments". Sad really.

Something that I have not seen mentioned is the matter of how an improved playing list impacts on our observations. I agree with all who have offset expectation against the TTHD (Training The House Down) syndrome BUT it should be factored in that the difference between a player like James Strauss training well amongst a list of players such as Daniel Nicholson and James Magner is significantly different to a player such as Spencil doing the same in a list including Lewis, Gawn and Viney. Good playing standards breeds greater improvement and it does not need to be said that if you drop the standard far enough it is far easier to TTHD.

No Yes

Hmmmmm....yessssss Harley's troublesome calf. Because the AFL are completely honest about everything at all times. Not a go at you DD - just a natural born sceptic.

We have a period of 4 6 day breaks in a row in the middle of the season. From memory it includes a couple of interstate games. One of them to Perth. The FD will have to be right up on its game to steer the team through this period. I can see Spencil being front and centre in that planning. Probably throughout that period to spread the load more evenly for Maxy.

Worse trouble if Spencers not there. Can't believe those who suggest we trade him. Not every-one can be Max Gawn, Goldstein or Nik Nat.

That's ok chap, just find a bit boring when some criticise, they can just not read it, I have found topics and threads 100% better now I have compiled an ignore list or don't read after first line or 2 As I have said previously I try to provide colour in my reports as DS and WW do a superb job of providing drill detail If I find a new drilll might report that, coz I make a point of asking the coaches what it is for I think the talk about Spencer is because he was improving steadily but yesterday was like watching a new player, games being a different matter of course But it goes some way to showing that the proper development of players we have all longed for is coming to fruition We had a ruckmam in his late 20's, who we have all shaken our heads at, at some point, charging up and down the middle of the ground, providing a target and dishing of accurate handballs and kicks. and still doing it 2 hrs into the session, in 30+deg heat

I also look for who is in rehab as we know that despite the "golden ticket" knock preseasons are critical to the year. It's really encouraging that most have had good preseason, particularly the young blokes like Stretch, Petracca, Brayshaw, Hunt, Weideman, Harmes, AVB, Oliver and Hogan. I think it's critical that the good young players get preseasons. Older players can get away with missing a bit but for younger players it's so important. This, to me, is why Saty's information is so good.

Everybody looks slick in the preseason, every man and his dog knows it counts for nothing come game day, if you must dig, then try something less obvious. Grimes and McKenzie in their day were 2 of the best trainers at the club and stood out during sessions Trengove is showing signs that he may have turned the corner and is back to the player he was pre injury, whether this enough to get him into the team with the players we have now, who knows, but I am sure if he is successful he won't let the team down

I've been out of football a while, but very rarely do players have direct opponents these days. Sure, they line up on someone at the start of a quarter or after a goal is kicked but generally that's it. Hard tags have even gone out of fashion! Now they cover space/zones and the like. Trengove is primarily a midfielder so guarding space and getting numbers in specific spots would be the coaches instruction as I understand it.

Thanks Wayne, Saty, Demi Dee, Vogon, Ruffles and anyone else who I've missed that have posted reports. About time you all made it to training. Did you read the last training thread?!

I know what you're saying Biffen. Ice can turn the most well meaning placid person into an aggressive monster. But when someone with a pre-existing axe to grind zoops themself up on it, it can be worse.

I was there briefly this morning and having noted the great work of WW, Saty and Vogan P, I have very little to contribute other than a couple of moments that got me excited: 1. The professional attitude and numbers of support staff. Felt like a well oiled, championship club. 2. Warm up running, all turned to run backwards on. The punt road side, someone in the group called out and the group responded in unison with a loud enthusiastic response that resonated commitment and belief. 3. Short kick to kick with slight alterations every couple of minutes. Watching Salem, Petracca, Hogan, Lewis and Jones was a delight 4. Watching an unusual drill with tennis balls and seeing Harmes smash Lewis. Lewis was winded and sat out for five. Harmes popped over to help him up, while giving him the 'does that hurt old timer' look. Lewis jumps up pats him on the back and got straight in with it. 5. 10/10 drill looked slick and only just below match day real. Standouts for me were Hibberd, Watts, Gawn, Hoganand Jones. Always present and dangerous. Liked stretch and Trengrove also. Did see trenners get run down at one point, but, nailed the kick. Thats all I've got for now. Got distracted by my little girl taking photos of her namesake, Jesse.

I'm here.

Don't know if serious...? You know we have a completely new team right? I saw quite a bit of the women's VFL last year (a lot of one particular team which will probably be obvious) so can give a semi-educated opinion on our and other teams' recruiting. I was disappointed overall with our draft haul, predominantly with our lack of a proven key forward which I think will prove to be our downfall during the season. Daisy is obviously a great get. Hickey was a bit of a reach as a marquee player but getting Paxman as a priority makes up for that. Overall our drafting was VERY young/inexperienced. A good proportion of our team seems to be just out of youth girls or new to footy in the past couple of years so much like GWS or GCS' first few seasons I expect that we will struggle early despite good top end senior players but should be a force in a couple of years. We were unlucky to be the last Victorian team to pick as Lambert, Stevens and Jakobbsen are all guns. O'Dea was a solid pick but Berry was too early IMO. She has great skills and potential but hasn't really proven herself yet (played forward pocket in the VFL last year). Our players that I can see that are primarily key forwards are Jess Anderson and Jasmine Grierson who both played their first year of senior football last year. Cranston has played up forward a lot but is a bit short. Lauren Pearce and Maddie Boyd are ruck/forwards. We do have options but they are not close to the Vescio/Hope/Brennan level. Our midfield and defence look ok. I expect that the bulldogs will clearly be the top Vic team. Their midfield with Blackburn, Kearney (clearly the next best mids (after Daisy) along with Bri Davey), Lambert, Hannah Scott and Brooke Lochland should dominate. Plus O'Connor and Spark who are top rucks. And Brennan up forward. Carlton have done well getting a top forward and mid as their marquee players, like the bulldogs. They lack top line midfielders behind Davey but Hosking, Exon and Pound are quality. They have a great forward line with Vescio, Jakobsson, Ayre and Arnell. Collingwood looks good all over the ground except for a weak midfield. Their backline should be particularly strong with Stevens, Chiocci and Penny Cula-Reid and obviously they have Hope up forward, along with Cameron. You only need to look at the league B&F and team of the year to see that we will struggle this year. SWISSE VFL WOMEN’S BEST AND FAIREST LEADERBOARD Daisy Pearce (Darebin) 33 --> Melb Brianna Davey (St Kilda) 29 --> Carl Ellie Blackburn (Melbourne Uni) 23 --> WB Katie Brennan (Darebin) 22 --> WB Steph Chiocci (Diamond Creek) 22 --> Coll Bree White (VU Western Spurs) 20 --> Coll Emma Kearney (Melbourne Uni) 20 --> WB Bianca Jakobsson (Cranbourne) 17 --> Carl Jaimee Lambert (Eastern Devils) 15 --> WB Sarah Perkins (Eastern Devils) 15 --> Adel B: Kim Ebb (WB) Nic Stevens (Coll) Nic Hildebrand (Bris) HB: Hannah Scott (WB) Hickey (Melb) Paxman (Melb) C: Pearce (Melb) Davey (Carl) Kearney (WB) HF: Vescio (Carl) Brennan (WB) Jakobsson (Carl) FF: Arnell (Carl) Hope (Coll) Perkins (Adel) FOll: Downie (Carl), Blackburn (WB), Lambert (WB) Inter: Gillespie-Jones (Carl), Ashmore (Bris), Boyd (Melb), Attard (Carl), Chiocci (coll), White (Coll) But on the plus side, hopefully the drafting next year will be in reverse order as it is for the AFL and we will be able to pick up Izzy Huntington. She did her ACL in the youth girls game before the last women's exhibition game so we won't see much of her this year but she will be a weapon and probably the best player in the league very soon. She was not eligible for to play VFL last year but played only 4 games in the Premier division (next one down from VFL) and was BOG in all of them and also took out the team's B&F playing only those 4 games! She's tall, fast, beautiful kick and strong mark and seems always have so much time, a bit like Pendlebury. And is a big Dees fan! So there's my preview...

"Matt Jones was supposedly best 22 during training last year and ended up being delisted. That's just another example of reading too much into training. He looked great in January, yet ended up being the same player in June." Wiseblood - Matt Jones played the better part of half a season before injury wrecked his season. My point being that blokes who burn it up pre-season are certainly in contention for the opening rounds. In the early days, post injury, Max also looked to be lumbering around. I was convinced in those early games that he couldn't jump! I think it is possible for a player who has had several interrupted pre-seasons to take a huge step forward when he has a clear go at it. I'm not saying that Spencer is a walk up start, but we don't have to look any further back than Max at the first Maroochydore Camp to be excited by Spencer's current track form.

Wouldn't that be terrific. I think Vince needs to improve on last year, the second half especially. maybe give him more run with roles to maintain the focus. AVB is the interesting one. Commetti described him beautifully when he said he isn't great at any one aspect but does everything well. If he keeps improving he will definitely be good enough for the starting 22.

Posters who can't see particular players finally getting it together and becoming a good reliable player must also wonder why the club bothers with continual development programs. Spencer is clearly moving forward by all reports. That means he's not as useless as he was last year. Kudos to the coaches. It's a real achievement that hopefully transitions into game day performances.

Me too bb. I buy very little sporting branded gear because it is so in your face. 100% my age I guess but I don't wear "boy racer" type branding that is all over the garment. Simple "BMW' Logo type on one breast is my go. Sadly I cannot afford a BMW.

Branding and logos can be done subtly also. A lot of golfing stuff is...its just not in your face. Id reckon there's a reasonable niche market for what Maurisey suggests .

Capt - Jones V/C - Viney LG - Gawn, Lewis, McDonald, Vince That's all it needs to be (I would actually give Vince the opportunity to decide if he wants to be in it or not). Lewis doesn't need to be in the top 2 positions to still be able to use his voice. I'm sure any player is encouraged to speak up at any time, especially if they are walking the talk.

Generically, I agree with you, Thrice and Wiseblood on the issue of Co-Captains. I didn't even consider it as a possibility until I read some suggestion on another thread that McCartney had apparently floated the idea as a possibility. Relevantly, I have absolute respect for Jones - I love the bloke and his commitment to this club. My view here is not intended to be a slight on him or his Captaincy - he deserves the position and I think that he should, and obviously will, be maintained in the gig. That said, we have super unusual circumstances here. It is extremely rare that a senior and super well credentialled leader from a highly successful club with potentially more success in front of it, and with that player genuinely having gas left in the tank for at least another three years, seeks out a developing (and let's face it, criminally unsuccessful club over the past 10 years) and says 'I want to join you guys, help you with your development and share in the success over the next few years that we will achieve'. It seems clear that Lewis has joined the club for legitimate reasons. It also seems clear that he commands the respect and ear of the entire player group, including Jones. I however want to see him empowered. For the very reasons each of you are concerned about the Co-Captaincy piece, ironically I think it's a good idea. What I would not like to see is for Lewis not talk to the group at the huddle at 3/4 time in a tight final even though: - he should because he has stacks of experience in such a situation but doesn't want to be seen to be usurping Jones' authority as Captain; and - Jones himself would probably want Lewis to talk to the group but doesn't want to appear to the player group as an impotent Captain in the circumstances. Having Lewis as a Co-Captain negates this. Think about it. We are developing club with aspirations to play finals, and not just one of them. Our leaders including Jones have little to no experience in this zone. Lewis has it in spades. And I want him, and others like Jones, to feel that they have unrestricted access to that knowledge and experience. I suspect Jones would actually be slightly relieved with such an appointment. It's no slight on him, just recognition that we have a new Centurion in the group who needs to be properly empowered for the benefit of everyone. One cannot under-estimate the importance of Lewis to our future success in the coming years. Let's just embrace it.

Binman, just FYI, there is an underground carpark next to the Demon Shop. If you tell the guy on the gate that you're there to go to the shop, he will find a spot for you to park. I've done it about 4 times.

I might have a bet each way ?... We lose the SB but I win the demonland post season tipping comp, great consolation prize!

I'm not a fan of co-captains and even less of importing a player from another club and making him captain no matter how good his resume. I'm all for Lewis to be in the leadership group but not in either of the two top positions.

Some where over the rainbow, weigh a pie...

Trengove looks a lot like the player we knew in his first few seasons - pre-injury. That is a very handy mid/forward waiting in the wings. He is assured with the ball, has always been good inside, and he is a goal-kicker when inside the arc. He may come into calculations early if there is any delay in getting Tyson back.

Gawn was in the leadership group last year and is a leader of this group. He made it last year after half a season of good footy. He'll make it this year after adding an All Aus. Whilst I agree about Watts only playing 1 good year of footy I'll say he's also been a leader of the playing group in many ways for a while now. He's king of the kids - both in terms of fans and in terms of being popular with the younger players. If there's belief that he's turned the corner for good with his footy then I could understand him being picked in the leadership group. It might even help him go to another level. I don't think it's the same as Melbourne of old, I actually think it's a little alternative and a bit like Adelaide picking Tex Walker as captain when Sloane was available.

I spoke to Dom today, he is cool, already improved, did a bit more again, close to running at top speed, did a bit of kicking over distance as well He was [censored] off when injury happened, but any player is Brayshaw has a niggly calf, Nev his quad, said it was from too much non preferred kicking! Kent said he was ticking over the rehab

You could have stopped at ice and ice dont mix. The scourge of modern society. Is there a more insidious drug and how it effects the user and worse, impact on others ?

Absolutely great news, love Roughy, my favourite other club player. Never thought he'd play again, so to not only play but be appointed captain is just sensational, good luck for the future.

I didn't say I didn't want an MFC logo in it. I'd be quite happy to buy one like that.

Goes for the whole team. Not just Spencer. As usual we seem to be training the house down.

I'll be wanting a Falcons win but will tip against them cos JV7 will.tip them and I want to win ?.

Post Season Tipping Comp Leaderboard 9 - JV7 7 - Gorgoroth, Macca 6 - Clintosaurus 5 - DeeSpencer 3 points on offer next week Super Bowl Monday 10.30am Atlanta vs New England

With 10 v 10 all players cover most of the ground but I didn't notice anyone in an "abnormal" position. Pretty much business as normal as far as I could see.

Nah, seemed to get tangled up and twisted a bit in a contest, didn't look too distressed at the end of the session On Spencer, this is only second time at the club that he has got this far in a pre season, has not missed a session, he was outstanding today, galloping through the middle of the ground making himself a target and the players used him, you could see his confidence growing as the session progressed

Excellent. Thanks, VP. The point about Spencil could add a very different dimension to our attack. Max knows where the goals are and has turned out to be a reliable kick for goal. If Jake can get the ruck craft improved it'll really stretch opposition defence, much the same as Lobb abt GWS.

Yeah, you have. The fact that you don't realise it is why I told the story about the mall.