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Hogan wins round nine Rising Star

There's no doubt that the Left is alive and well on Demonland... Pt 1. You say it’s “public record” and you may be right, but please provide evidence. as I don’t remember there being any record of her saying she was parroting family members, or other supporters. I do remember however her saying she didn’t even know Goodes was Aboriginal and was merely referring to his appearance. Link me to your evidence. P2. You talk of a “community gravy train” ? Half of the country is on welfare. Half of Australians families pay no net income tax. Australians have to rid themselves of the mentality that governments owe them a living. You then speak of discrimination against Aboriginals. What discrimination are you referring to ? And when will this country be mature enough to end the racial divide so that all Australians embrace being Australian. You say indigenous Australians are “massively excluded”. In what way ? Where is this deliberate “exclusion” you refer to ? Pt 3. The “stolen generations” are a myth perpetuated by politically motivated historians. Have a read of Keith Windschuttle's The Fabrication of Aboriginal History. Here’s an excerpt: Yet recent historians and commentators have persisted in describing this proposal as "a massive exercise of social engineering" and an instrument of genocide. Robert Manne, professor of politics at La Trobe University, described it as commonwealth policy: "The officials in Canberra and the minister, J. A. Perkins, gave support to Cook's proposal for an extension of the Territory policy to Australia as a whole." This is false. The truth is that Perkins, minister for the interior in the Joseph Lyons government, in a carefully worded statement to the House of Representatives on August 2, 1934, denounced the proposal. He said: "It can be stated definitely, that it is and always has been, contrary to policy to force half-caste women to marry anyone. The half-caste must be a perfectly free agent in the matter." None of the historians of the Stolen Generations have ever reproduced Perkins's statement. Nor have they reported any of the other critical reactions made by Lyons to the press. On June 23, 1933, the Darwin newspaper, the Northern Standard, quoted Lyons government sources saying: "It is all a lot of rot." But you won't find that quoted in any of the academic literature on this topic. Manne is not the only offender here but, as a professor of politics, he had the greater public duty to tell the full story. Seeing as you find Bolt an anathema, let’s also read his exchange with Stolen Generations Alliance co-patron Lowitja O’Donoghue in 2001, (My father) didn’t want to be straddled with five kids,” the former Australian of the Year said, sobbing. “I haven’t forgiven him… “I don’t like the word ‘stolen’ and it’s perhaps true that I’ve used the word loosely at times… I would see myself as a removed child, and not necessarily stolen.” Asked whether it would be better to state clearly that she wasn’t a member of the stolen generation, Dr O’Donoghue said: “I am prepared to make that concession.” I note you’re from Canberra Goffy. A great haven of the Left. I doubt you’d like our border protection policy either. Here’s a link to Keith Windschuttle's The Fabrication of Aboriginal History http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/features/flawed-history-keeps-myth-alive-about-the-stolen-generations/story-e6frg6z6-1225824632357 Pt 4. My ancestors lived on their land in a young settled country. Settlement took place 60 odd years before their journey. I accept that you have personal guilt, but that’s your choice. I have none. I don’t have an ounce of guilt for something that had nothing to do with me. And I feel no guilt on behalf of my ancestors. Explorers discovered a new land on the other side of the world and established new lives. I’m bloody glad they did. You ? Not so much. My ancestors have nothing to feel ashamed about. I have no doubt Aborigines were treated appalling in many cases, but I take no ownership over that. Many indigenes also wish their brethren would leave their animosity behind, as it holds their community back. People, such as you, don’t help their cause and nor do you help enrich their future. But rest assured fellow lefties will rejoice in slapping your back. For seeming is always far better than doing.

Scully is a clear AFL player. No doubt not the star we thought or GWS thought, but a player. If the foot finishes Trengove, I'll never put him in the dud category. He doesn't belong there any more than Morabito does.

Collingwood went on an amazing run. 9 straight goals i think? Down 38 and then never looked like losing, even when North hit the front again. What I noticed about Collingwood and even North at times is just an undeniable endeavour, true team play. Melbourne imo has far from the worst list in the league -- I'd put as above the Blues, Lions, Saints, Bulldogs (yes), Suns -- yet as Roos points out, once players loose that mental toughness in a game it's all about, "Well, we're going to lose, I'm going to play for myself now". No team capitulates quite like we do. Outscore 100 to 20 in 2 quarters of football, most of it coming in 1 quarter. That is something we should have left behind in 2013. Evidently, it's still present and has been present in two games this year. The Hawthorn game doesn't count because if we let them get on a role of dominance the same way GWS and Port did then we'd have lost by 200 points. Both GWS and Port started the game in 1st gear then went to 5th gear while Melbourne stays stuck in Neutral. Do you notice that we're not even that bad when we do actually get the ball in those patches? We just CAN'T. GET. THE. BALL. They chase and ball watch. They literally lose the intent to win the ball: can't hold tackles, can't string together possessions, can't get into space. We saw how hard they ran against Richmond and the Bulldogs. Our problem is right in the middle of the ground: unless the midfield plays 100% of the game at 100%, then the team completely breaks down. Our best is still good, but our bad is completely and utterly inept. When are we going to turn a corner?

WA vs Vic Country Well sorry for the delay in getting this out but have between busy afternoon and computer problems only getting onto it now. Schache was outstanding from the very outset, loved his strength in contested marking situations and his awareness to lead hard when the opportunity arose, delivery to space from Matheson, Sympkin, Ainsworth, Holmes, Tucker left the defender with no chance. Schache showed some arrogance at times which I think is a good quality in a young forward. Ah Chee up forward for WA had limited opportunity but he is a gun and will be sought after due to his ability to turn a game from limited opportunities. Really liked teh defensive work of Collins who is a big boy and was surprisingly very clean below his knees and made good decisions by foot. WA had solid contributions from Jimmy Harrold and Hinchcliffe all day long but the WA boys lacked depth through the middle and it is no surprise their best period in the game came in the third when Pepper-Powell, Clark and Hinchcliffe were all winning the clearances with Goddard being the better ruckman on the ground as he was for the day. Some notes of interest First Quarter: Schache shows strength holding front position with a high floating ball delivered in quickly but not effectively, Schache positioned his body well enough to hold off defender and take a strong mark above his head. Unfortunately put the ball to the wrong side, although I do like his smooth kicking action 2 very solid pressure efforts inside forward 50m from Eades resulted in turnover and goal WA turnover ball forward of centre wing and ball ends up in hands of Sympkin who after short run sees strong lead from Schache who starts lead as soon as he sees turnover. Sympkins perfect pass lands on chest of Schache with defender trailing behind him Another WA turnover ends up in hands of Darcy Tucker who after quick 1-2 gathers with great run and delivers a long pass over defenders to top of square where Schache who is moving backwards and has presence of mind to use body to hold off full back and bring ball to ground for crumbing forward to goal. Not certain but think the goal was by Number 28 very brave effort by Harrold takes strong contested mark backing in at half back and takes off to deliver a quality 35/40m pass to chest of leading HF strong effort inside forward 50 by Sympkin, gathers loose ball with pace and makes early decision to kick a goal from 40m out on the boundary. Great skill, confidence and poise shown with this effort and approx 10 secs before it was Sympkins hard effort at half forward which caused the spillage when WA were breaking away from defence really strong tackle and turnover by Costigan was a great effort which was not backed up by a poor turnover when going into corridor with other available options on win Good mark by Vic forward Skinner with strong hands and body strength getting front position although IMO WA defender Mirco should have done better, tried to contest the mark from behind when the obvious option was to punch Hinchliffe shows coolness under pressure in heavy traffic inside defensive 50 before delivering a quality 35m pass to teammate to relieve pressure Tucker again runs off half back to wing and at pace delivers perfectly weighted and depth pass to leading Schache Hinchliffe again good in traffic with poise and hard run in own defensive 50 before clearing down the boundary to advantage of leading HF Best 1st quarter Vic Country - Schache, Sympkin, Tucker, Holmes WA - Hinchcliffe, Harrold, Goddard 2nd Quarter Goddard continues to get better of ruck and is also backing up with some good second efforts around the clearances Matheson and Holmes dominating from centre despite Goddard winning hitouts Harrold backs into contest and takes a quality mark in front of Schache in defensive 50m before giving off pass and continuing with run and providing outlet option Ah Chee takes a good mark at full forward uses smarts to leap early and get advantage over much taller opponent Watson shows a lot with several second efforts, backing into packs without questions Collins big half back who shows good clean hands below knees, on one occasion with WA breaking and wide open forward 50 behind him, Collins is decisive in trapping low delivery to leading forward forward before gathering and disposing with neat kick into corridor, Collins continues with momentum receives handball which he handballs to HFF resulting in inside 50 to contest at top of square. Schache again takes mark with strong lead early to lose defender into forward pocket, realises quickly better option and delivers pinpoint pass to team mate who goals Ridley and Clark getting involved and starting to deliver some good isnide 50's for WA but Vic defenders Collins and Wietering either marking or knocking to advantage Tucker and Matheison exceptional at ground level to clear and set up attacks Watson great second efforts after strong defensive spoil falls to Vic advantage, 2nd effort results in turnover and WA relieving pressure Hinchcliffe again brave floating across bigpack at halfback to take relieving mark Ainsworth outmarks taller opponent with good judgement and positioning sense Ainsworth busy and applying forward pressure gathers lose ball and delivers perfect pass to Schache who snaps goal Schache relieving on ball and maintaining role floating kick behind play, gathering possessions as link option in corridor, also delivers quality inside 50 to leading Ainsworth WA under pressure in defensive 50m Hinchcliffe runs hard to get to contest gathers ball before delivering inch perfect 50m pass to leading HF Best Vic - Schache, Ainsworth, Collins, Matheson WA - Hinchliffe, Harrold, Watson, Clark 3rd quarter WA gain some advantage through Goddards taps, Clark strong body and Shaw getting busy forward 50 entries cut off by Collins Harrold showing defnsive poise and dash, decision making is top level Ainsworth strong lead gathers before turning quality pass to leading Eades Schache leads well to Holmes who has run off HB and delivers pass which is a bit high, Aisnworth comes up as 3rd man and brings ball to ground, very good effort by small/mid size forward WA now having best period of game, Clark, Hinchcliffe strong through the middle with assistance from Pepper-Powell and Ridley who is getting involved again. Rotham standing up in defensive 50 and when pushing up ground to spoil at every opportunity Pepper-Powell very impressive decision making is sound, delivery by foot is good and he has a physical presence for a midfielder Petrovksi-Seton been quite most of the day but running hard trying to get himself into the game, impressive second and third efforts after shocking turnover by him inside defensive 50 turns the ball over, puts body on line to spoil forward pass follows up with bone jarring tackle and WA move ball to forward 50 at pace Sympkin goes hard in 3 on 1 to beat all opponents in forward pocket kicks % option to top of square Rotham spoils Petrovski-Seton shows one for the highlight reel, runs of back of square at centre bounce meets ball at speed which he gathers and delivers inside 50 from centre square at speed, after after some solid work by Jones WA lock ball in and Clark using big body at clearance goals Best Vic - Sympkin, Holmes, Schache, Ainsworth, Collins WA- Rotham, Pepper-Powell, Clark, Harrold 4th Quarter Ah Chee holds up well in strong tackle to get his kick off to goal Clark continues off from 3rd quarter with some good strong clearance work Collins continues to impress by beating direct opponent and also rolling off to spoil, however he chooses this option well also has a knack of backing team mate and rolling off to provide outlet option or gather loose ball, lot to like about this kid Pepper-Powell shows extra tools by resting across HFF and bringing ball to ground in a couple of contest Schache moves to behind ball and starts to show quality delivery and poise for such a big man, duel option down the track as forward or defender going to push him right to top of draft. Once sting is out of the game he goes back to forward 50 where he continues to dominate. His set shot is fluid and looks effortless Ah Chee ignores Pepper-Powell who is free in space around 40 m out and blazes away from 45m out close to boundary So basically a dominant display by Vic Country who just had far more contributors across the ground and overall had the much bigger bodies at the contest, better structures setting up from HB and through the corridor and with the smart powerful leading Schache they are a good strong side. For drafting Schache - Top 5 easily and on this effort Carlton/Suns/Saints will take him with Pick 1. not just a forward, but why wouldn't you play him there. Shows a lot of Hogan's hard working attitude and some swagger. Direct opponent was undersized but could not have asked for a better display from your key forward who imposed himslef on the game Collins - not as highly touted as Weitering but the best defender on the ground, showed great anticipation and decision making matched with good ball use and also provided options going forward. Tucker - not overly busy but everything he did he did well. His disposal was excellent as was his decision making. Good runner and will also be able to run on ball Ainsworth - size will go against him but very good by foot and a busy forward who shows enough to suggest he could rotate through the middle. A lot of Jack Lonie about this kid Holmes - rated him above Matheson over the 4 quarters because he was harder at it throughout and was busy when Vic Country got on top early. Not a big mid but has some good aggression and did not shirk any contests WA Clark - not exceptional but just makes the right decisions, I think he will go second round because he wont have one of those impressive highlight reels but may surprise recruiters, especially if he gets into a strong midfield Hinchliffe - not a big mid but brave and a very good user of the footy by hand and foot. Will go late or rookie but I like kids who stand up in a team under the pump and that is what he did Harrold - as above stood up for the entire game in a defence that was getting no let up. Showed plenty of poise in traffic and used the footy well Ah Chee - showed enough with his limited opportunities to why he is highly rated, like all quality small forwards makes the most of limited opportunities

I was in the cheer squad in the 70's - I had no 11 - Greg Wells on the back of my duffle coat. Can someone please tell me - who was the other person in the cheer squad ?

Perhaps for a bit of light relief, found this on Big Footy! A classic!! I had an Essendon supporter in my house the other day and fcuk me are they slow. I trolled on several occasions "Would you like a cup of Tea Before you go?" Nothing "I gave the kids a little pep talk about the tides in the interest of trigonometry." Nothing "we have several rugs in the house we have A-rugs B-rugs C-rugs, But all the D-rugs are in Essendon" Nothing "Your team are a bunch of f*cking drug cheats and you should feel bad" What?

A lot of talk here about half forwards and half backs, as though they were the reason we lost. We could have players vastly superior to Matt Jones, Howe, Watts and Bail in the side and we still would have lost. Our problem is in the middle of the ground. Until Van Berg can run out a full game and not go missing for lengthy periods of time, Brayshaw is more experienced and also fitter, Pettracca has recovered from his knee, gained experience and is AFL fit and Tyson is over his knee problems and back in form. Until all those things occur, and Nat Jones and Vince are relegated to midfield support roles, we will continue to lose to better teams. Pulling out your hair and gnashing your teeth about the likes of Bail, Matt Jones, Howe and Watts is pointless. A fit Salem and Kent might make ever so slight improvements to our overall performance, but the major problem has been and still is with our midfield. Our key mids at the moment are either not fully AFL ready (Brayshaw, VanBerg, Patracca) or not AFL size (Nat Jones and Vince). Riley, Newton and a below 100% Tyson does not change the result on Saturday one bit imo. Shuffling the deck chairs.

Geebus, I've been 'refuted' by someone referencing Keith Windschuttle. Ok, I accept that this thread might as well be closed. Next up, a man in a clown suit explains why the Salazar administration was good for liberalism.

Hey Prodee, re your point 4 If your neighbour stole your family farm through nefarious dealings and you had to watch his descendants lording it over you for generations, how would you feel? And wouldn't it be reasonable if one of those descendants was to feel a twinge of guilt? I live on a big bush block north of Melbourne, and am strongly aware of the ghosts of its original inhabitants, and do my best to honour their legacy and repay what I owe them (I spent over twenty years working with aboriginal people on community projects, and was constantly shocked by the racism I saw inflicted upon them and the patience with which they bore it) For what it's worth, I LOVE what Goodsy does. Many of the advances in Aboriginal community development have come about because of warriors like him. I just wish the bugger had played for us. Cheers

Like every draft, that draft was a real mixture. The first "star" was taken at pick 14, the next at 20. Additionally, I count 4 players who are perpetually injured (JT, Morabito, Griffiths, Menzel), 1 player on the brink (Moore) and 5 clear duds, who are already gone or near enough to (Butcher, Gysberts, Lucas, Howard and Tapscott). That's 10 players in the top 20 (i.e. half) unlikely to make it to 100 games. I highly doubt Port were expecting to get far more out of Jasper Pittard than John Butcher. Freo would have been wetting themselves at getting Morabito, and considered Fyfe an added bonus. We could just as easily have picked Morabito and Butcher in that draft given the rankings at the time. At least Scully enabled us to end up with Jesse Hogan.

https://twitter.com/melindayasso/status/604250127121809408 Not sure that link will work, but it sums up my thought exactly. There's has been so many people this week saying the boos are because he was chosen as Australian of the Year and dared to use that platform to bring attention to indigenous issues/concerns. They obviously are happy to be amazed and entertained by indigenous players on the sporting field, but don't want those same people to get a voice and talk about indigenous problems. I just don't buy it is because of anything he's done or continues to do n the footy field. The game is full of players who play unpopular footy (playing for frees etc), and they get booed occasionally , but the booing of Goodes is at entirely a new level. And people saying he shouldn't have picked on a 13 year old girl, seriously? He reacted to racist abuse and would have had no way to know anything about the person saying it. 13 years old in no excuse any way.

I suspect neither you nor Dunstall have been subject to systematic racism throughout your whole life. It's no coincidence that it's always the white, heterosexual males who say things like this.

The racism displayed here is not 'mild' racism, it is racism. Adam Goodes is well within his rights to use his position to to bring awareness to the plight of indigenous Australians. His dance was an expression of pride in his culture, that's all. Get over it! This reminds me of what happens when a representative of any repressed culture stands up proudly for his people. The people in the advantaged position don't like it and instinctively argue to discredit it. Think of the response to Muhammad Ali, who spoke out for his people and refused to play the well-behaved but benign African-American. He is seen as a hero now but at the time he was hated. Turn over to Q&A right now and hear some thoughtful analyse about this. The fact is, the indigenous culture in Australia has been discriminated systematically throughout our history. It continues to happen and this ridiculous response to Adam Goodes display of pride clearly illustrates this.

Our capitulation on the weekend says nothing about game day coaching, more about weak leadership on the field, that goes to water when the heat is turned up.

I think it was aimed at me and I haven't even entered the debate yet. ( nothing like a preemptive strike daisy ?)

Many of them do

No it's OK AF. It is the usual refuge of scoundrels to place epithets on those who disagree with them. It is easy call them "left", "politically correct" Chardonnay Socialists., "do-gooders". But if calling out racism is any of those things, then I am happy to wear them. Even if others ask about the view from my mythical "high-horse". I will continue to call out bigotry on any level. Then as if to justify their banal criticisms they then seek to support their arguments by citing Andrew Bolt and Keith Windschuttle, when what they say has been shot down time and time again. These are the "flat earth" brigade - sorry for the name calling - of insular conservativism. It may well be worth remembering that it was a socialist ideologue, Arthur Caldwell, that inspired the paper tiger white Australia Policy and uttered the immortal words "2 wongs, don't make a white"

alas no Goode will come of this thread !

In the article by Rohan Connolly: http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/essendon-need-to-deal-with-some-harsh-home-truths-20150531-ghdjco.html makes a couple of points worth remembering "Mistakes in AFL football are damaging enough when they happen on the field. When they involve decisions taken off it, the results are more far-reaching. And when the impact of not one but several of those calls run concurrently, the consequences can be grave indeed. Essendon made probably the biggest mistake the game has ever seen when they pushed the boundaries of sports science too far in 2012, the impact of which may be felt for several years yet. But there are a couple of direct spin-offs of the supplements saga that have the potential to do just as much damage, and they're becoming clearer with every game the Bombers play. Essendon's meek offering against a steadfast Richmond in Dustin Fletcher's 400th game would have been disappointing enough in isolation. But it's more evidence that the Bombers should immediately ask themselves a couple of tough questions. One is whether the travails their players have been through these past three seasons have created a disproportionate sense of loyalty to them, both on a week-to-week basis and in the longer term, from Essendon's coaching staff." Firstly he correctly anoints the Essendon fiasco correctly as probably the biggest MISTAKE in footy but its the second that drew me to the article really. I wonder if much of the 'why" as to the reason that so few broke rank and pursued their own course of action was borne out of a shared 'shellshock' They were fed ' we're in this together malarky for so long ( and so hard ) that they felt it was an us or them battle. They were mind washed of any notion they were a victim as well and should seek counsel outside the club. One senses it might be starting to unravel though.

Plenty of players do, extremely few of them get booed to the level Goodes was against the Hawks Plenty of players do, extremely few of them get booed to the level Goodes was against the Hawks He was reacting to a racist comment in the heat of the moment. I would be astonished if he had time to even really analyse who the person was who yelled the comment before turning and pointing them out let alone weigh up the pros and cons of doing so and whether the person who did so was a male or female and how old they were Why should he accept the apology? McGuire said an idiotic and racist thing and should be held to account. He shouldn't be let off just because it's going to affect his public image as a media personality and Collingwood President This is the crux of it - he says things white Australia finds uncomfortable and would rather have swept under the carpet. Yeah, if you're good at playing sport and can entertain the masses with ball tricks you may make it but for the vast majority of Indigenous Australians they still live in conditions comparable to apartheid South Africa. Apparently "vilifying" white Australia by pointing out acts of genocide since settlement is worse than the actual genocide itself. Crazy logic.

It wasn't all down to Northey. Barassi was the force behind the revival which carried over to the Northey years. His coaching may not have produced the results while he was there but he laid the foundations for culture change and improved recruitment.

Do we have a send off rule here?

Was it seeking unnecessary attention when Mickey O'Loughlin taunted the crowd at Subiaco? No, because he didn't do a tribal dance. Was Nicky Winmar being too precious when he raised his jumper to the crowd and pointed to the colour of his skin to the crowd at that cauldron known as Victoria Park? No, because he didn't use a specific indigenous tribal reference. The odious comparisons between body characteristics such as hair colour and size of one's ears entirely misses the point of the endemic racism that has existed in this country for generations. Such racism does not rely on perceptions of physical appearance, but a mind set that has perpetuated bigotry for far too long. It has been long overdue that such bigotry be called out. That said, it is almost certain this topic is heading for a lock down.

Regardless of some of the valid arguments on whether he should have, or shouldn't have it is hard being black in this country. You drink, take drugs, live off hand-outs and commit crime you are a failure and a drain. Succeed at the highest level in a chosen field and celebrate that empowerment and you get shot down.

Look at how it helped Carlton.

We also lack class. And these two blokes have class. Will be disappointed if either or both of them are dropped for the Queen's Birthday game. It's the clearances and work around the stoppages (incl tackling) that killed us on the weekend. Watts and Howe aren't exactly the main problem there.

Always may have been the wrong word. Nonetheless my point stands: it's *often* those least likely to be subject to systematic persecution that dictate how others should react to their own systematic persecution. Ethan's comment about being teased for having big ears completely trivialises the effects of racism. It showed a complete lack of understanding - far more ignorant than what I said, or at least I thought so. Of course people of other skin colours and sexual persuasions say stupid stuff too, but surely it's beyond dispute that if you're white, male and heterosexual, your position of privilege means you are least likely to understand the position of the persecuted minority. And yes, I'm a moderator. I have an opinion too. So long as I don't use your opinion against you in an official capacity, I see no harm in expressing it. On the rare occasion that I get in to a blue on here, I ask other moderators to check it over due to the conflict of interest. Yep, I've even had my posts deleted by other mods, though in the 10 years I've moderated this site, it's probably happened twice. The system works pretty well I think.

I'm getting seriously annoyed that guys like Newton & Michie who have only played a handful of games are being dropped every second week. honestly.. I've seen more I like from these blokes than guys like watts, bail, m jones & Howe. surely they'd be getting extremely frustrated that watts continues to get games ahead of them, when he hasn't done anything this year to warrant his spot!

AFL: Blues won't rule out seeking a priority pick And the games begin... Round 3 they declare they are rebuilding, Round 8 sack their coach, if it were the MFC we'd be up for 1/2 million dollar fine for not Tanking..

This. This is the perfect example of the ingrained racism in Australia.

Ok, let's roll this paper out. Pt.1. The coverage of the incident with the girl including her apologising and saying that she didn't really realise how racist it was and had just picked it up from some family members and other fans. So yes, it is actually on the public record. Also, it is well and truly on the record, and shown in footage from the game, that both Goodes and Jetta had been continually racially abused by the crowd, and that Goodes' decision to turn and point out the source of the abuse as a 'final straw' moment, before he even knew the face of the person he was turning to. Pt 2. "Wah wah wah don't you just hate it when people go around trashing the brand wah wah my country is so great how dare anyone say out loud that there are serious injustices in our history and current society, Australia is so great and free so shut up you stinker". One of these days it might occur to you that the procession of nicey-nice award winners all announcing what a magical land of milk and honey and equality for all are, actually, being divisive. Its just that the 1/3rd or so of Australia that, one way or another, has being left off the communal gravy train has also been cut out of the national conversation. When budgets come out and the papers are covered in 'How will a family on just $150,000 a year cope!', you know the country is messed up. One of the ways it is messed up has been, and continues to be, discrimination against Aboriginal people. If you want a country where someone from such a massively excluded part of the community should stand on a podium and say 'oh yes, I'm delighted with everything, come get a hug, I'm so grateful', maybe democracy isn't for you. Pt 3. a) Stolen Generations is a verified multi-generational event, documented in numerous sources and even found in bureaucratic archives, and actually meets all the (very tight) legal criteria of being an act of genocide in international law. Few pretend that Australia was any kind of utopia prior to settlement but there were a great variety of very different, functioning societies. The colonial and overall 'pre-rights era' set about, as a matter of policy, to destroy any semblance of leadership, continuity or even family connection. In theory the goal was assimilation but this was done in a half-hearted manner, often by people in favour of 'just letting them die out'. Rape of aboriginal women by mission leaders was not only common, but often done on the rationale of 'helping' the Aboriginal community become whiter. Aboriginal women were also routinely assigned as 'domestic servants' to 'help' the 'lonely' white settlers in outback areas, until they were returned mysterious pregnant. Intergenerational patterns of sexual violence were given a massive 'boost' by this era, and the means of healing and community leadership necessary to overcome it were also forcibly dismantled and not replaced. Try to remember that most of the Stolen Generations were selected because of their 'sufficient whiteness of appearance', and that a great many of those white-ish babies were the product of coercion or outright rape that was verifiably encouraged by many local officials as the best solution to the 'Aboriginal problem'. Now, I'm not pretending that Aboriginal communities were some kind of paradise of universal hugs and lollies, but to imply that the sexual abuse issue in remote Indigenous communities is a product of them 'being Aboriginal' and that the Stolen Generations 'myth' as you call it is some kind of excuse to avoid being 'saved' by the whites, is pretty vile and either outright racist or just mind-boggling ill-informed. Have you been getting your news from Andrew Bolt or Quadrant magazine? b) Beneficiary of European Settlement? The man happens to be seriously good at AFL, and you are making it sound like he got there as some kind of handout. Now, I've always been interested by the complex ambiguity of the benefits and harms of the Colonial era worldwide, but like most Aboriginal people Adam Goodes has managed to succeed despite having to overcome real harassment and real discrimination. Saying he somehow owes it to European settlement would be like saying you owe your livelihood to Syrians and Iraqis, since they pioneered urban settlements and all. Pt 4. None of your ancestors committed any atrocities. Ok. Good. Whose lands have they lived on? I guess there weren't any farmers in your family. No foresters, no fishers, no swagmen, shearers, miners, and nobody who, say, lived on the ground. I guess they just all levitated and lived by yogic deep breathing. Your ancestors "going back 5 or 6 generations on 4 sides" were all living and working on Aboriginal land that was forcibly taken. If you have a problem with Aboriginal people objecting to discrimination and pointing to disadvantage now, well, I am sure they would settle for sending you a 220 year rent bill and calling it even. Now, does that cover it, or would you like a reading list?

I actually think calling out a 13 year old as the face of Australian racism was the perfect call - it's ingrained racism that is at the core of the issue, where a child doesn't know any better than to call an aboriginal an ape. It opened up a massive dialogue, which was the whole point. Goodes is not liked because he's strident and doesn't take a backwards step, nor is he content to go along.

You're welcome to disagree with me but your response shows where many like yourselves don't understand the issues. You say three of my reasons for not liking Goodes are directly related to race. I couldn't disagree more strongly. It's about his actions and his response to a number of racial incidents. Just to make it crystal clear for you, I have seen no-one trying to justify the racist attacks on Goodes. Nor have I seen anyone trying to deny the claim that some people bo-ing Goodes are doing so because of race. But it is clearly not all people that boo him. What I have seen and what I don't like is the way Goodes responds to those attacks. That has nothing to do with being a racist or the colour of someone's skin. It's about a person's behaviour. I have responded to another post about Michael Long who IMO has dealt with racist issues with much more balance and dignity than Goodes ever has. I respect him for that. The political correctness brigade that tries to tarnish anyone who disagrees with them or anyone that doesn't like Goodes - for whatever reason - as racists are frankly pathetic. They clearly can't distinguish between a person who is boo-ed because of his actions and boo-ed because of his colour.

Updated. At this stage: I would re-sign Garland, Toumpas, Pedersen, Gawn, and upgrade Vanders. I would not re-sign Jamar, McKenzie, Hunt, Bail, and Fitzpatrick. I would trade Howe. That would open up 5 spots on the primary list. I would give King a third year on the rookie list, and White a second. Riley, Cross, and Harmes are wait-and-see prospects for the last half of the season. If all three were moved on that would be 7 spots on the PL and 2 on the RL.

There is zero doubt that it is racist. Zero. "Unless it is well-founded" are you kidding? Think of the decades of research abotu bias, unconscious bias, racism and Australia. you are aware of this literature, aren't you? Because, it would be pretty daft to be talking about a subject in an unfounded way, wouldn't it? I'd be concerned about your thinking on this issue were you to be speaking from an - dare Ai say it - ignorant position. The "it can't be and if you think so, maybe you are" argument is, well, it is the equivalent of "I know you are, I said you are, but what am I?" My god. That sort of dodgy rhetoric is best left out, don't you think? And the war dance! Darling, sweetheart. Seriously. Who cares about a war dance. It is a dance FFS. A dance, from a man regularly racially abused, on the round that celebrates his race - a race that has been pushed into what will probably be a fatal decline. And we are a bit sensitive about hurt feelings of the crowd? Precious much? Maybe missing the point just a little? Lewis is a sniper but doesn't get booed. Fletcher is a spiteful jerk, but doesn't get booed. Selwood plays for frees constantly but doesn't get booed. Lindsay Thomas dives and gets booed. Whoops. There is no doubt this is about race, fueled by race, denied because of race and bubbling along because of race. Just got to get big enough to admit it.

Come on Song, that's just not true. So I guess calling Goodes a monkey or King Kong isn't racist? Regardless of what people think of the incident with the 13 yr old girl, the boos are definitely related to that. Or should he just suck it up and accept the racist insults, like generations of Indigenous footballers?

I watched a couple of quarters of the Sydney game. I thought the Blues worked very hard and the result was quite respectable considering there top four players were out. The MFC in this same situation would have lost by 20 goals.

Pedant. No, you reported Andrew Bolts' flat-earther comments and version of court 'reporting'. Time to take your head out of the sand.

Couldn't agree more!

The moderation on this site is excellent. Unlike other football sites, Demonland at least allows for a balanced discussion. One mention of the name Andrew Bolt would probably be enough to get you banned on progressive sites like big footy. We should all be thankful that the moderators around here at least allow for a difference of opinion. Just my opinion.

Well if the Club hierarchy and Board were complicit in the doping program Hird set up, then WorkCover will certainly get them and they will all go to jail. The act is quite explicit on this. That is a deliberate setting up and running of an unsafe workplace over an extended period of time. Personally, I think Hird hid it from the Board, but I have no doubt the executive group knew including Reid. They all should be banned for life by WADA, and this will almost certainly follow the CAS hearings, particularly if they find the players guilty as I think they will. There is nothing to stop ASADA issuing infraction notices to the hierarchy post these CAS hearings, and if the players are found guilty that is a logical extension.

Seriously... [censored] off please.

"The stolen generation myth" - its unbelievable, hey? So what he's saying is that (very simplistically): Europeans invade Australia Europeans start by stealing ('trading for') lands and driving Indigenous people away Europeans move Indigenous people into 'settlements' where alcohol and other drugs are introduced Europeans decide to sleep with Indigenous woman so as to eliminate the Aboriginal people slowly and totally. This behaviour continues until the early 1970s. The Australian government stops the practice, but the Indigenous people are given little land back and are incorporated into the system when its too late. The drugs and drink are here, and many children have no grounding because of the trauma they suffered and their parents suffered. Their identity is lost, and they have children who turn out the same way. The fact that we have stopped systematically breeding them out, have said 'sorry' and give them funds means they should accept it and move on. No, [censored]. The Aboriginal people will suffer for generations because of the cultural damage inflicted by the settlers up until less than 50 years ago, and now we the new generation and our government do little but throw some coin their way and let them sort it out. We accept them in society, but when one of them stands up and speaks out, we get uncomfortable and lash out at them because we just don't want to hear it. The mistreatment of the Indigenous people may be something that caucasians would like to push out of their minds, but it does little good to the children still being born to fractured families. Remember Liam Jurrah? Goes home to a family divided at the seams and is told to sort it out and that he is letting them down by not being there. He finds the drink, or it finds him, and look at the bloke now. I don't agree with some of what Goodesy does on the field, but he is a bona fide legend of the game who I hope that one day will be revered for his affirmative action. Oh, and just on that 13 year old girl who has somehow become a 'victim'. Never mind the fact that she knew exactly what she was saying, how was he to know who she was? He was jogging down the boundary during Indigenous round and heard someone call him an ape, at which point he turned around and pointed at the person in question. Once it was established that it was a minor, was he meant to say "nothing to see here". She called him the next day, he told her how it made him feel upset and then he forgave her. If many people could have it their way - he would be commending her for calling him as some grand act and that he had no right to not smile and forget about it. A five year old calling him an ape might do it because of his skin colour but not know why it is offensive, a 13 year old is more than aware. The problems within the Indigenous communities is something that we need to fix, beyond throwing money and our cultural values at them as though it will help.

Out: This weeks scapegoats In: Next weeks scapegoats I have been staying off the forums, because I was away this weekend and wanted to enjoy myself despite only catching the second half of the game. It is really [censored] me how much people lose their minds over losses. We're a mentally scarred team that isn't quite good enough to compete against better sides. Yes, its frustrating. But its reality, and no amount of screaming and yelling is going to change the fact that we have to stay the course and stop dropping our collective bundles every time we lose. I know the circumstances were bad, and that its a repeat of rd 2, but this is how it is and we have to accept that. Everyone lost it before the Dogs game, then you were on board again, and now you have jumped off.

So you even know why she called Goodes an ape ? It was because of the racists around her ? Wow, incredible insight, especially as you weren't even there. People, such as myself, dislike Goodes because he's racially divisive. Rather than make a speech that espoused unity and togetherness, especially as the honour given to Goodes highlighted how far this country has come with regards to bridging the gap, Goodes used the platform to further divide. Goodes seems to think that this country was utopia prior to European settlement. Does he need a history lesson ? Does he realise that children are now left in dire circumstances, including incest and rape, because authorities are too scared to intervene due to the "stolen generations" myth ? Does he deny he himself is a beneficiary of European settlement ? I'm 5th or 6th generation on all 4 sides (depending on how you calculate it), but none of my ancestors were guilty of any atrocities. None came here as convicts. It's one thing to recognise the mistakes of our settlement, but the constant finger pointing does zero to improve the lot of present-day underprivileged indigenous people. Goodes doesn't improve relations, he merely fosters division.

The first quarter and a bit we showed when we play the game on our terms, run hard both ways and stick tackles what can happen. From there 3-4 errors we caused handed them goals and confidence and they started to push back. Our lack of leadership and maturity meant no one took control and we went back into selfish and lazy football. For the heat and particularly bringing in two quality players underdone we needed to play two extra mids. We should have pulled Fitz from the side as soon as Ryder was not playing. We are getting better but because we now see our good and our bad week to week and even more so quarter to quarter it is truly more frustrating as a supporter. Watts was poor as were others but why he is the specific focus of comments by most and not Howe is beyond me.

Guys i have it on good authority that Goodes actually went along with a "playing down" of that young Girl's racism rant/incident to assist her in not being on the receiving end of OTT retribution from all and sundry at such a young age were the real truth of what was said to come out. The "official" line from those involved, including Goodes in response to alot of press questioning, was that she called him a big ape. According to what i heard from someone involved at the ground It was much worse than that! The Hawks boo him for no obvious reason, which might possibly be racism but might also be their mis guided view of his reaction to the "offocial" ape line that was trolled to the media. I wonder if the booing that goes on would be so wide spread if they new what was really said. Whatever the reason, some people then expect him to lay low in the indigenous round and not give a yelp! As far as i'm concerned the indigenous community had a big role in developing this game to where it is, they live and breathe it in many areas of Australia and are amazing to watch at the highest level. I admire their courage at being able to bridge the massive cultural divide between the western way of life and their's in an everyday sense, let alone play footy in front of so many at the highest level and cop the crap that they must cop (and have been for decades....Winmar!). If Goodes wants to do a tribal dance in honor of his indigenous mates then bring it on! The game can do with a bit of cultural injection and dance anyways! The all blacks do this before every game and as part of ceremony. I hold Adam Goodes in the highest regard and admire him as a great footballer of our day who gives 100% effort pretty much every time. I only wish we had of had this great player in our team for the duration of his career. The culture and value he would add to any club is invaluable, not to mention his ability to turn/win matches off his own boot, gut running and inspirational 2nd & 3rd efforts. Love or loathe him he will be seen as one of the greats of the game when he finally hangs up his boots.

Out M Jones and Bail In Tyson and pigdog. Seriously, I don't care that they do a defensive job, we need more attacking options, our backline normally does a decent job, but when your two half forwards are crap with ball in hand when they get it or can't tackle a player already on the ground without giving away frees they need to go. They offer this club nothing for its future unless our future is to stay a pathetic cellar dwelling club... If that's the case, bring Terlich back too. I'd even consider Fitzy for another mid like ANB or Stretch which means Dunn plays on white.

In: Tyson, Newton, JHK if fit Out: Bail, Fitzy, Howe I bet Dawes will come in and be shithouse