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Clark kicks two in a row. "Great story" Someone pass the bucket.

Those of you here who bag Dawes should watch his work rate and fwd pressure. It's phenomenal. He was almost a sole fwd last year with no assistance. Yes he doesn't have clean hands but he is vital to our fwd set up and those that don't think so are dreaming. Will be great to watch when he has a team around him this year.

A loss is a loss, we go in planning to win every game, a close loss isn't good enough anymore.

Please.

I have changed the title. When I saw "West Coast Sniffing" I was thinking of an entirely different subject.

I think it's also a phenomenon that's becoming much more common and virulent in the internet age. It used to be that one would have to get one's news from the mass media, and if one wanted to discuss an issue then it would have to be with one's social peers. In this way, it would be nearly impossible to avoid being confronted with arguments or facts that run contrary to one's own world view, and one would be pressed to adjust accordingly. These days, we can log onto the internet, and never have to hear a single opinion that one doesn't like. In politics, for example, it would be possible for me to log onto a partisan media outlet and then onto a forum populated entirely by people who entirely agree with me. I can go the whole day and have every single one of my opinions reinforced and not a single one of them challenged. It's almost inevitable that my ideas will become radicalized and increasingly distanced from reality. This is basically what's happened to essendon supporters now. They only trust some specific members of the media (I.e. Those who are pro essendon sycophants), they refuse to discuss the issue with their peers and they retreat at the first opportunity to their safe-place forums. Ideas that are expressed there snowball, and speculative ideas soon grow - through mass repetition and lack of questioning - into simply unimpeachable truths. Like their political equivalents, football fans on a football forum begin to develop a siege mentality, and become increasingly dependent on paranoid conspiracy theories to keep the increasingly unstable construct standing. For essendon supporters, this has become the simply unquestionable mantra that their is a joint afl, Asada and mass media conspiracy to persecute essendon even though they've done nothing wrong. Why any of these parties would be motivated to do such a thing is, of course, not a question that anyone there is permitted to ask. When it becomes inconvenient or even not permitted to question the basis of one's world view, inevitably incoherence will begin to set in because one is unreflectively just accepting convenient talking points without making any attempt to calibrate them against empirical reality. In such a way, inconsistencies - obvious to anyone but the group themselves - begin to set in. The club don't know what the players took but it was nothing illegal. Hird cards deeply about the welfare of the players but has no idea what the players were being injected with. Asada and the AFL are simultaneously evil, calculating masterminds and bumbling idiots. And so on -reality very quickly runs away from you if you aren't forced to take stock of it every now and then. That, incidentally, is why it's good to have people who reliably go against the group opinion on boards such as this one, rather than hounding them out of town at the first opportunity.

Some people have no idea about the value of CD to our side. Goals and marks alone are not the reason Chris Dawes was selected in both Grand finals at Collingwood.

I agree, if Dawes regains his spot from somebody who has performed their role really well, it will send the wrong message to the rest of the team, it is his own fault he is sitting out Rd 1

And with that compo pick (#48) we chose Dean Kent Kinda ironic

Dawes really didn't have much of a chance last year. He had to chase kicks halfway up the ground and when we did go forward, delivery was usually deplorable. Add to this the fact that he was swamped by defenders and it is clear why he often became frustrated. This year he at least has some classy company in the forward line and hopefully, more and improved opportunities.

Like other interstate players on our list, he will leave when his contract is up if we don't start playing good football and winning. It would be devastating to lose him and Hogan in a few years time if we are still cellar dwellers, but it's a real possibility. WE NEED TO START WINNING GAMES.

I have been to a number of training sessions this pre-season and was there yesterday and here is a few of my observations: I will be very surprised to see Brayshaw line up in the seniors before at least mid year. Certainly not in the midfield. As a rookie he needs to learn how to play the midfield role and learn off the likes of Nat Jones and Tyson. He appears a little lost in the match sims and his disposal needs more work. This is all to be expected. 6 mths at Casey, injury free, will do him the world of good. Aaron Vandenberg seems the most likely to be elevated from the rookie list. That said, from what I saw yesterday, he trained well up until the match sim where I think he ran out of condition and Jordie easliy picked him off. He is a huge specimen and if he can improve his fitness he could make it and surprise. I loved it again yesterday when Christian Salem did another short pin point arrow kick to a team mate a la Port Adelaide game at Alice last year when he passed to Bail for a goal. As you don't see it very often to that level of skill except if you are watching Hawthorn you appreciate how good Salem is and will be. I agree with Saty re Viney. I don't think he has had a huge pre-season. Yes we have seen his defensive skills on display but I was looking forward to see more of his offensive / creative skills develop. The big positive is that he has kept himself injury free. Boy its striking to see the difference in skill between Dawes and Hogan. Jamar and Pederson are far better marks than Dawes and I would not be rushing the former Magpie into the side for Round 2. Speaking of Pederson, he also has had a big pre-season and has lost a fair bit of weight. He is still underestimated even with his breakout year last year. Have been very impressed with Mat Jones this pre-season. His increased speed and ability to run and run makes him a certain starter in Round 1 IMO. I think we have made real progress this pre-season and the list looks quite healthy especially the big men. I am quietly confident that we will be competitive and more attractive to watch and even surprise on one or two occasions. How many wins that translates to, we will see but if the list remains injury free then 6-7 wins would be a good result .

People have forgotten that in his first 5-6 games back from injury he was really important. He fell away along with most of the side in the second half of the year.

I agree. The AFL should also provide a time machine so when Beverage stopped the play he could send Libba back in time 2 minutes as to not do his knee.

try the paleo diet

I reckon this concept of "depth" is very overstated here. We've got depth in developing talent and footballers with potential but we don't have 30 players who have proven they can play consistent AFL footy. When I try and put my best 22 together there are 10 or so vying for the last 5 spots but none of them would get much of a look in at the top clubs. I'm not saying we aren't on the improve, just that we have potential that people are interpreting as depth. It's the same "depth" that Blease, Strauss, Tappy and a host of others have provided in previous years.

...and shuffled out the door by a club really lacking forward power. Dawes needs a big season, he is not being paid as a defensive forward which by the way he is not great at anyway. He gets far too much credit for one big tackle in 2014.

I'll take Dean Kent every day of the week. That said, pick 48 is hardly a highly sought after pick.

by the end of the game he was starting to move, and look like the Clark we know. He will be very good for them, that is now a fact. On the bright side, Lumumba will be very good for us too.

I'm already cracking the shits at the sound of his name.

Mitch clark sprinting flat out in a cats jumper makes me sick

Beating St.Kilda, GWS, GC and Footscray gives us 7 wins. Last year we dropped games against those sides and we simply shouldn't have. When the sword of Damocles drops at Windy Hill next month, we can ink in a certain win against them as well. We beat Richmond and Adelaide, neither who have added anything substantial to their list. We were more than competitive in half a dozen other games. I expect the same again this year. 10 wins as a rock bottom bare minimum

Interesting that most are predicting and many have said they'll accept 8 wins or less. That's not even up to Bailey's last two years. Personally I'm expecting more. Better list, better football department, better administration, easy draw. And lets not get into the "Bailey's game plan wouldn't have won a GF". Footy is about winning and Bailey did with much fewer resources than Roos has now. Time to produce.

Yes. Have some pride, damnit!

I hope you post Kenty's reply - I labelled this bloke a keeper two years ago...loved his speed, bravado and raking left foot. Hey P-man, hope you're well? Stef who???

Just let him train, he is on our list until 2016, that's almost 2 years away and here we are before the 2015 season has started asking him about going to WC. I think we should let him concentrate on training. One thing about extending his contract means that he is happy where he is.

Sorry I stopped reading your posts, but thought I needed to answer this one. Yes I will ask him all the same, have a good rapport with him see what I get, might tell me to get stuffed, Had a really good chat to both Trengove and Howe about moves to Richmond and GWS and got really good answers, same with Chip Frawely, I honestly believed he hadn''t made up his mind and then after speaking to him after season was over was convinced he was going to Freo till Hawthorn stepped in at last minute As I have said previously the players will discuss anything as long as you ask in a respectful way, some times they ask me not to publicise which I don't

Well they'll be paying out of their eyeballs for him considering he's contracted until the end of 2016. http://www.melbournefc.com.au/news/2014-01-09/jones-kent-sign-new-deals Dean is very happy in Melbourne.

Could be a draw I think, depends on how long Jazza can stay off the fags. BBO you have gone this far why slide back, why not continue, think about the weight you have shed, how well you feel. I say continue the good fight and stay alcohol free. Those bottles of Shiraz do you need them really? Let me deal with them instead, let me remove your temptation. It is the least I can do for you and there is no need to thank me. It is my lot in life, noblesse oblige, I believe it is termed?

As far as the match sim went it had its moments of positive play and others not so much. To be honest I was probably as disappointed in the coaches as much as the players. The focus again seems to be on possession retention, with Goodwin calling for calm and slow steady play at half back. Seems a strong desire to get the ball to running players by foot trying to pick through zones instead of attacking run from the backline and long kicks to half forwards presenting which is what I'd love to see. The best patches of play did involve a more attacking kick towards the corridor and then some flowing handball and run. Frost actually straightened the team up a bit with an attacking play. One went from the Northern end in to the middle for a series of handballs (I think Salem, Viney, Kent) who then pumped it in forward. The slower play around half back was ok at times. It certainly wasn't terrible. But when you switch it around half back against any good defensive team (and both sides defended pretty well) at some stage you're going to need to do 1 of 3 things to get out - 1. kick to a contest. 2. thread the needle on a difficult kick or 3. run and link up and break through a zone. There were too many times where I would've liked to see us try the kick to the ruck/CHF option OR try the handball and run through the middle early on in the rebound. Individual wise (bearing in mind the teams were pretty balanced and so you had to look both ends) Backs: Dunn made it hard for Gawn by out bodying him. Grimes was more solid. Salem defended well, took a great mark backing in to a pack and used the ball really well. Garland had one moment where he dangled a kick out for young White who probably could've held it with strong hands but was picked off. Hunt had a big long run (during the earlier match simulation stuff). Tommy McDonald continues to be a liability with ball in hand. Shank central. He has a very slow steady and release on his kicks. White kicks really well and looks up for the contest, just is a bit awkward defending and around the packs. Frost provided a bit of burst and was otherwise ok. Jetta was very comfortable for the time he played. Sat Hogan on his backside I believe at the far end. A number of others - Michie, Newton, Lumumba, McKenzie filled in on the flanks. Mids: Tyson is still probably our best on the spread, just gets to the right spots to get the ball. Viney found plenty as well. Jones was Jones. Lumumba breaks the game open with his run but we'll have to cop some turnovers or poor kicks. Matty Jones found lots of space, he's good at getting a handball and getting to the edge of a pack, unfortunately he just isn't smooth by foot when running full pace. Lively is a good word for Stretch. Newton pulls off the occasional lovely left foot kick, but I'm concerned about how he's going to find the ball. Michie has moments of clever play but then can be walking around a pack instead of busting for that handball receive. Toumpy found a bit of it and used it well. He's up for the contest but I'm not sure he's figured out just how he'll win them yet. Spencer did manage to handball the ball along the ground at one stage in his excitement to dish off a handball to a running player. He missed a lot of footy last year and training, so I'll give him time. But it's hard to watch at times. I think he'll only ever be of use if he plays angry and plays like a big strong bugger. That's not ideal for a scratch match, but he if rucks in games like he did v Pedersen at centre bounces he wont contribute much. Anyway, too much time for our 3rd string ruck already. Fwds: Hogan very solid. Dawes 2 grabbing but did take a few. Gawn got at least one goal when in more space but Dunn does give him trouble one on one. Garlett was buzzing around. JKH as usual finds a way to get to space, he's got a good work ethic. Kent was involved in lots and was very physical. Didn't see much of Fitzy besides on nice grab. Anyway, good players played well, ordinary players not so much. Defensive set ups were pretty sound. Physical effort seemed willing. Ball use was safe around half back. Forwards stayed at home pretty well. Mainly it's time to play against an actual opponent and to get our better players in the same team.

Just got back from training, and BB was pretty much spot on with his analysis. I went there looking at structures, ball movement and the role that individual players were given. I'm basically looking at where we'll be better from past years. Positives Salem was outstanding. Toumpas was really good when he's given space, and his disposal was great. Tyson, N.Jones and Viney were the best of the mids. Hogan and Garlett will improve our forward line. Thought that Kent was also good up forward. Frost really impressed me at times with his clean ball handling and run. Of the youngsters, Stretch was impressive apart from one badly missed target at the end. He looks like he could be an inside/outside mid. Vandenburg did a couple of nice things. Oscar Mac may take time to develop, but looks like a footballer. Wasn't as impressed with White as BB. He's got nice size about him, and got involved, but struggled a bit in one on one contests. Negatives In what were ideal conditions, the number of missed targets was atrocious. I won't individualise because there were too many to remember. Dawes. If players can get reported during intra club match drills, he would be missing for another 4 weeks. Jetta was playing on him, and beat him every time in a body on body contest. In frustration, Dawes smashed him across the chops, in what can only be described as a cowardly act. Jetta was down for some time, then went off the ground shaken. Spencer. It's an indictment on a player when an assistant coach yells out to his opponent "you're on Spencil". The ball was duly kicked Spencer's opponent, who took the mark and ran off. There were a couple of other shocking efforts that I could point out. And before Saty or BB say that everyone makes mistakes, Spencer would be lucky to get involved in 5 acts of play during a game, excluding ruck contests. General Observations Backs - We have no shortage of backman who are capable in a one on one contest. But when opposition teams apply a forward press, we need players capable of clearing the ball through run or good foot skills. The backmen who can provide both are Jetta, Salem, and Dunn. T.Mac is a lock in as a kpb, but his skills are still average. Lumumba can provide some run and has good evasive skills, but is an ordinary kick. Frost has looked pretty good in the 2 match sims that I've seen. IMO, I wouldn't have Garland, Grimes of McKenzie in a starting 22. All are honest players, but we need more rebound and skill. Mids - Still a massive reliance on N.Jones and Tyson. Viney was good today. Michie was involved quite a bit but is very one paced, and hasn't got elite kicking skills. Really need Toumpas to have a breakout year. Forwards - Hogan is the only key forward we can rely on, and he hasn't played a game. Noticed Hogan deliberately punching the ball down to a waiting Garlett or Kent during one of the drills. Would like to see a structure that includes Garlett, Kent and JKH, because aside from Hogan, I struggle to see where the goals will come from. If we line up with Hogan, Dawes and [Pedersen], we'll struggle. Rucks - Jamar is still no.1 but doesn't offer much around the ground. Gawn has a presence when up forward, but doesn't impose as a ruckman. [Pedersen] did a bit of ruckwork in the match sim, and wouldn't mind seeing him used as a 2nd ruck /ruckrover. Spencer, Casey.

Had a look this morning. Normal training drills until about 11.00 when they played match practice with about 16 per team. Injuries: King, Howe, Vince, ANB (not sighted Petracca and Trengove). All others seemed to be there. Observations: As the tempo of training increases so do the mistakes - understandable. Salem playing back, dominated match simulation and looked fantastic until he appeared to hurt his left calf. He didn't look happy and it was strapped straight away. Lets hope for the best. Tommy Mac was very good, killed Dawes who really struggles with ball handling. Jordie McKenzie seems to be playing off the back flank. His opponent gets very little of it. Gawn mainly forward ruck, some good work at times. Stretch just knows how to get involved, impressed again today. Tyson, Jones and Viney did very well. First look at White today and was impressed. Good size, competitive and kicks well. Brayshaw got another hit to the head and left the field. Salem was leading him a merry dance at that stage. Hogan was involved and kicked goals. Garlett will be a gun if he can keep focused. Clean, fast, skilled and can find it. Oscar Mac played forward and got it a few times. Dunn wacked Gawn in the guts behind play. All the players played their part but the flowing skills of a month ago under little pressure were replaced today with some more contested "normal" footy. JKH found a little of it when McKenzie didn't pick him up. He played in the midfield a bit and was involved. Watts only played about half the match sim but didn't seem to be in any discomfort when off so I assume it was just a load thing. In one drill he was playing a lead up forward role but in the match sim he was high half forward again. Toump seems to have made progress to me. Not the huge leap many will hope for but he was involved all day and by todays standards one of the better disposers of the ball. There is no doubt they are trying to move the ball quicker but are still struggling at times finding a target. As ever I'm very interested to get others impressions. I'm just hoping for the best with Salem. Hopefully just cramp or something but he was terrific and he'll be in my fantasy footy team as first picked. His ball handling, contested work, kicking and ability to find it were just great.

In Bailey's last two years we won 8.5 wins respectively. Notwithstanding the improvement in all lists from year to year, we have a much better list comparative to the Bailey years. Whether it be the Swans from 93-96, Dees 97-00, or Pies, Hawks and Port in more recent times, with the right talent and on/off-field leadership clubs can make inroads far quicker than expected. Hogan, in particular, will have an impact beyond the conservative evaluations of most. 8 is a bare minimum for me.

If l can't watch the Dees live, then there is no better option than the big screen at the local pub with a counter, a bottle or two of red and a group of Demon mates. I cannot seethe attraction of subscribing to Foxtel when the local pub is happy to pay.

Most of the 2012 draft decisions were on the back of Neeld he put a fair bit of effort into the recruiting side of the team and whilst there were some clear misses he also was pivotal in a few key draft selections. I was lucky enough to attend a members event before the draft in which they held the Jesse Hogan press conference and after having a chat to Todd Viney he mentioned how Neeld was having major input into the draft. Was an awesome event to be lucky enough to attend. If I recall correctly that was the year before Jason Taylor was able to contribute to our draft and Todd Viney was our head of recruiting.

I'll ask Mr Kent on Tuesday and see what he says

hm, wonder how they'd feel about a straight swap for andrew gaff...

At the end of the day, everyone who watches has their own opinion and their own bias. If you ever find yourself reading conflicting reports and wondering which to believe, my advice would be to just believe which ever one makes you happy. To me, it's unimportant whether Spencer was overall okay or terrible in the eyes of people I don't know in a training run I didn't see. I get more out of the little snippets of facts (not opinions) - like TDI's report of the Dunn/Roos exchange or the report of Dunn whacking Gawn behind play.

I'm like all supporters, I've got my favourites and I've got players I don't like. But Spencer wasn't horrible today. Nice mark on the wing and a really good kick forward to a running player hitting him lace out as he was running away from Pencil (it was on the other side of the ground and I don't know who it was). He competed and gets involved around the ground. You didn't mention that. I get you don't like him and that's fine but you should at least give a full picture and not a singular example of a mistake. As for the ball rarely getting from one end to the other without a skill mistake have a look at last nights game and again tonight. It's a competitive game where the ball rarely does go from one end to the other without an "error". Today was competitive with as much focus on defense as attack. The idea of defense is to make it difficult for the attacker. They did and we saw a contest. That's all. It wasn't silly skill errors where simple mistakes were made. It was pretty normal preseason competitive footy. And having read all the reports I'd agree that Kent was very good as was Grimes. Anyone who thinks he's not a lock for the team if fit is well off the mark IMO. Newton is one of those players who I just don't notice. I reckon I'll pick up the paper having not noticed him in a game and see he had it 26 times. Does have nice balance and a very good kick but like GRRM I don't see him get it much. Thanks to Saty for info on Salem. I feared he'd done his calf muscle but if it's just a cork that's great. Believe me, if you'd seen him today you'd be excited! And Dawes is a real worry I reckon. He's not that good in a contest because his hands are iffy and he gets angry and reported which doesn't do anything for the team. Time for a bit of reflection I reckon. Having said that I didn't see the Jetta incident.

Only because I think sometimes I am not critical enough and some posters are too critical, hence why I ask both the players and the coaches, that way on Demonland we get input from everybody, which can only be a good thing

And TDI. Variety is the spice of life, I enjoy reading all the reports and accept them for what they are, opinions. It would be a boring world if we all agreed on everything. Kudos to all reports.

I don't like the idea of club officials passing on this kind of information to people outside the FD or the club, even if it is to supporters. Can't see any benefit to it, but plenty of potential downside.

Not sure about that. Roos ripped into Salem during one of the match practice drills for playing on and kicking long after taking a mark. Even though Salem's teammate took a contested mark from the resultant kick, Roos deemed that he should have waited and looked for other options that were less contested. Roos is all about taking the right option, not necessarily getting it forwards at all costs. And your last comment is all very well if they intend becoming coaches down the track, because it counts for diddly squat on match day.

If he is only going to play forward for Melbourne in the AFL in 2015, why bother playing him in the middle for Casey? Play him in the same role for the seconds so that when he steps up, he knows what is expected of him. That is what I would say if I was a decision maker at the club. As someone who wants the best for Aaron - it would be best if be played in the middle at Casey and if there happens to be a spot in the rotation for Melbourne available and his form is good enough - he should play there. Let Bail, JKH, Kent, Howe, and/or Watts play this amorphous 'half forward' role.

In an interview with Roos, there was a number put on the sessions a little while back to "qualify", thought it was something like 25.

I don't like it when mature age players are thrown into a role that they were not recruited for excelling at. I have seen him play in the guts. Half forward is such a difficult place to play. That is all I am worried about from his perspective. He comes in as a HF plays 50 mins gets 2 touches and nothing else and we are all calling him a failure. Setting recruits up to succeed is what we are all about from what Roos and co. are saying. I don't believe that involves playing Vandenberg out of position in his first year. As Vandenberg relyed to me, there have been no roles given to the first year players - they learn the basics, the gameplan, the non-negotiables, and if they are good enough in the VFL, they will play a similar role in the AFL. Also, someone said that he could play midfield for Casey and then forward for Melbourne... THAT is setting a bloke up to fail.

Yep, I think of Magner (not comparing him as a player) as a ball winning mid being asked to play a defensive forward role that just wasn't his go. Probably hastened his exit from AFL footy.

I have to agree with TDI here - he is a midfielder that is having a go at his first year of AFL life and calling him mature age is probably doing him a disservice here as we think they are all ready to go but someone like Michie is near Vandenberg's age but has been in this environment for 5 years. Sometimes you can be thrown in too early and also in the wrong position - he's a mid, he's not a forward, he's a go-and-get-it mid and I hope they have patience with him if they do ask him to play in 2015 and in a foreign position.

I'm in town for a few weeks from London so popped down today at about 10.15 for 45 minutes. So keep in mind that my observations are pretty limited and it was really hard to figure out who is who. The players seem to change jerseys every 5 minutes too. There's the red/blue, yellow, orange, white etc Perhaps it's because my expectations were high, but I was a little disappointed by today, except for moments of brilliance. Most of the session was broken up into groups with mids/forwards/backs etc but at one point they did a full ground drill with 'teams' rotating on and switching the play. The drill would start with a long kick into the backline which was marked by a free backman, who would then attempt to move the ball all the way down into the forward line. I noticed that the backline found it difficult to kick to free targets on the HBF/wing, mostly because players up the ground weren't really timing their run very well or moving to the right places. This could partly be due to excellent defence/manning up, which is a good thing for the team, but maybe not so great offensively. There were a few good moments though. Lumumba took a great grab and linked up well by handballing to the running Garlett. The last kick into the forward line was a bit hit and miss too. This was mostly because the players were well manned and the play was against the strong wind. Also, Watts marked the ball at about 60m from goal and spent a good 30 seconds trying to find a target and he wasn't really sure whether to have a ping at goal. He ended up kicking straight to a defender about 10m out from goal. But Watts had a brilliant play earlier at the other end where he picked up a ball on the run and kicked a left foot snap at goal through the middle with ease. Tyson looked good and made some low, pinpoint passes. JKH and Kent also showed some nice skills and Vandenberg did a few noticeable things. Hogan ragdolled Dawes at one point, which is not an easy thing to do. Hogan had to get some physio work on his glutes/hamstring mid-way through the session, but he joined in to the full drills later. It's good that he seems to speak with the physio at the sign of any tightness. I guess I was a bit disappointed that I was expecting end to end movement with no mistakes but obviously that's not going to happen. I also though the intensity was reasonably good during most of the drills but that plenty of time was spent strolling around between drills. Based on what people had reported on previously I was expecting more movement throughout the whole session. But again maybe I was expecting too much. One final thing. ANB was running laps at a serious pace. He's a beast. Bring on the games and 2015!! I'll be watching from London

Vandenberg is ticking all the boxes, he is now back training fully, spoke to him at Casey on Thursday, all his GPS numbers are AFL level, he is the third fastest or so at the club for sprint speed, he is up to his playing weight of 92k and is feeling like he belongs, the more I see of him the more I can see why the club took the punt on him. His kicking for goal is very good, he makes the occasional clanger but so does every player Can see why Harmes is being looked at up there as well, he is an aggressive bugger, can take a mark and is fast, and can kick goals, I would say we will get to see both at some stage playing forward in the NAB Cup