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After 22hrs of hand wringing I've decided to look on the positive. My top five positive things to come out of last nights game 1. Howe's smother (not Howes mother as i originally typed it...mind you I haven't actually met his mother) 2. Kent's Goal on the run 3. Sylvia is a spud and even in a good team he is ordinary and I'm glad he went 4. Jack Viney's ability to gut run and make opportunities 5. Nathan Jones' ability to shake a tag and still be trying at the very end and one extra Roos for his ability to know exactly where this team is at, and hopefully know what we need to fix it

let's face it. we just got a bunch of incredibly dumb footballers we need mids, good kickers and lots more brains

Watching the Freo game yesterday one of the few players that gave me hope for the future was this bloke. Yes, I know he only got the ball 11 times and his disposal wasn't brilliant at 55% but he has something about him. He's quick, loves to run, loves to kick a goal, possesses a raking left foot and has toughness to go with the skills. I know I'm going early on a bloke who has only payed 21 games but I think he has the skills and temperament that would thrive under finals pressure. Either way I know I become less of a morose bastard when the footy is in Dean's hands

I'm not over Tommy. I love him. I'm just hanging out for the contract extension.

Three constant issues need to be addressed across the list: 1) We lack class and it shows every time one of our also-rans comes up against a player like Fyfe, Ablett, Pendelbury, Buddy. We are seriously more of a good VFL side than an AFL side trying to combat the likes of Sydney, Fre, Hawks etc... We can do it for 2 quarters, and a few games for 3, but we cannot combat class contest-by-contest for 4 quarters. Players like Watts, Toupas, Salem, JKH need to become our class players but they feel years away. 2) Our kicking skills when under no pressure are deeply flawed. Our really good ball users like Toumpas and Watts just don't play hard enough for long enough to impact a game with their foot skills, especially at critical moments. Grimes, McDonald, Terlich, Tyson, Viney and Bail are simply crap kicks who also happen to be necessary components in our 22. I don't understand the root of the skills problem and I don't know how to fix it, but the big fear is that even Roos so far has not been able to fix it. 3) Once again, we lose due to what WE do when WE have the ball. Our decision making through half-back and half forward, whether it is a defensive push or an attacking one, only works 60% of the time. We decide to slow down when we should run, we decide to handball to a stationary player, we decide not to take the first option, we decide to handball backwards 10 times in a row but never get a free possession out of it. My Demonland experience is feeling like Groundhog Day. After each game I am feeling the same things, typing the same things and yet nothing ever changes. Once again I get to July and my season is basically over.

Loving that he's playing like he is. Always thought he could be a very good player. Good luck to him.

No Cross, no Melbourne.

Tyson's played 28 games. Grimes has played 83 games and yes, when you have © next to your name, more should be expected of you. Further, when you get the ball more, there's a higher chance you'll turn it over more. When your captain is the one making horrible decisions (and it's not just his clangers - it's his ability to consistently putting team mates under pressure with dumb football), it must deflating for the rest of the team. That's not leadership. That's the opposite, IMO. He might be a great professional off the field, but he has severe limitations on the field.

I think most supporters, like the players, have mid season fatigue and are getting grumpy. The initial excitement has worn off and the stark reality becomes obvious. The list is shite and many on I it don't and never will have what it takes. We still need to press for a priority pick and address whatever the issues are at Casey because development still seems a massive issue.

Possibly one of the worst serious suggestions I've seen on this forum.

Demonland - a group of incredibly dumb posters, love a loss, brings out the best, listen to Roos, he know exactly where we are at. I watched the game at the Sporting Globe in Richmond, expected us to hold them for quite a while, then they would draw away and probably win by 5 or 6 goals, was disappointed it blew out A few comments of my own, we need 22 to play their role really really well or we will get results like this Down last night, Grimes (his one percenters again overshadowed by mistakes, Terlich, trying to hold his place, 'tried too hard, Garland, he is out of form, Gawn , use your bloody size, Howe, got lost in transition, Salem, needs a break...there were others

We went in too tall with Maxy for the 2nd time and got punished as expected. He was poor as well. IMO it was the perfect time to play Blease as we needed run to break lines and perhaps kick a nice bomb and JKH for a bit of crumbing. Roos has obviously marked Blease's card and it is a pity that despite good games for casey he hasn't been given a single chance under him. It is early to call but I don't think Barry will make it. Our early part of the game was great and if Dawes with his 2 shots and Grimes with his gimme, had converted, we could have been ahead at half time. That would have kept our enthusiasm up and it would have been closer in the end than 10 goals. I actually felt the players sigh when Grimes missed. He had a poor night giving away the first turnover, not bodying Mzungo to stop his mark and then goal from 40m, not 5m like Grimes had and then he topped off his horror night with a handball to Pearce for a walk in goal, which had Pearce laughing. We are on the right track under Roos but need more skill and pace in the side and therefore we need to get a few good mids from the draft and trading. Those with poor skill have to go, as they let us down time and time again. IMO we also need another KPF to help Jesse and Dawes, another key back and a rookie ruckman that can be developed or a mature one that is not getting a go elsewhere. That might sound silly given Jamar's form but he is in his 30's or close to it and our others look ordinary ATM.

I'd trade both first round picks assuming Frawley leaves and we gain band 1 compo. I'd send one to GWS for one of Shiel/Treloar and the other to Gold Coast for Dixon. I'd make two very significant contract offers. We've got the salary cap space. Let's use it. I'm like most here and have watched bits and pieces of the U18s on Fox but that's it. No one has really jumped out and made me say, "I want that kid". Having said that, once afl.com gets their highlight packages up I'll be a complete expert and will no doubt have a fresh view on what we should do with our 2014 picks. Oh and once the bigfooty experts complete their phantom drafts, I'll have changed my mind again.

We are not the first or last team to fluff up in front of goals. Plenty of top class teams do it as well. The missed goals will happen every game, and are very hard to eradicate. Sometimes you're on, sometimes you aren't. It's the [censored] poor field kicking in general play, as well as horrible mind boggling decision making by hand & foot that are killing us right now. We've gone from being a no effort no hope team, to a team that competes really well, tackles hard and is defensively sound, but which fails to execute basic skills on a consistent level. Eradicate 80% of the turnovers by foot (you'll never have perfect disposable, and that's OK), and we are a 6 goal better team without even doing much else. Add a real monster up forward *cough* Hogan no pressure *cough* plus true crumber, and we are an extra 2-4 goal better team without even doing much else. For now Roos wants players who compete, the Bail-Terlich-Matt Jones of the world. Of course the better we get, the more we will be able to bring in players who are better skilled. There is a reason why guys like Tapscott, who is a good kick, aren't getting a game ahead of these less skilled players. Effort is king right now, because no amount of skills will help a team that doesn't gut run and compete for 120 minutes.

If Grimes wasn't captain, the conversation would be about whether we keep him at all. I think that alone says something about his merit as captain. It worries me that a player of his ability has managed to become a given on the team sheet. He shouldn't be. Bottom line is that the list badly needs another turn over. You can put lipstick on a pig..etc. Numerous players simply are not good enough. In that's sense, the end of the season can't come fast enough.

My life.

I'm not attempting to defend his 'efforts' - though as AoB rightly says above, it's not effort that the issue, it's skill. I recognise that he makes too many mistakes. I see that that miss last night hurt the team. What I don't agree with is the way he gets singled out. I raised the Tyson point not to single out Tyson, but to make the point that there are many others who make terrible mistakes, none of whom get raised on here. What about Bernie? He's made several really bad kicks out of defence in recent weeks that have directly resulted in opposition goals. Again - nothing gets said. Only the Grimes errors are discussed. As for being a terrible captain - he's been 'voted' in by his peers for three consecutive years and endorsed by two different coaches, at least one of whom clearly knows a bit or two about leadership. The club must think he does something right.

I think that at some point not 'gifting' games becomes silly when clearly some blokes need a rest. We've hit a major wall and there's absolutely nothing wrong with giving Salem, Viney and others a rest if they need one. That's not dropping people, it's resting them. That gives you the opportunity to bring in Blease, Tapscott etc without obviously 'gifting' them games. In my view, the last few weeks has really shown up the Roos strategy. We're way too tall, and we're leaving guys like JKH and Toumpas to rot at Casey, which is giving them absolutely nothing. Why not recognise their efforts and get them back in as rotation for blokes who are knackered? And as for going in with all of Jamar, Gawn, Garland, Dawes, Frawley, Pedersen, McDonald and Dunn in slippery conditions against a hard running team - puh-leese.

I deserved that.

I'd suggest that we aren't going to be drafting many people who can't kick.

Grimes should be made to walk back to Melbourne. You can't be captain and consistently make so many skill errors. Ridiculous.

Satyriconhome - the poster that makes everything personal. Seriously, it's a discussion forum. Just because a few posters views do not align with your own, does not make them dumb.

Yeah, two time "Coleman Medalist" in a very average f'k'n team And we are......................................................................................???

Well then thank FK you dont work for the footy club.

Not wanting to get into your argument with 'BB' 'Axis' but I agree that it is about balance. We had an imbalance in the list and it's obvious that it will take more than the last draft to address it. There seems to be a few chances to pick up good players later in the first round or beyond this draft but that's just from an outsiders view. I'm sure the club will be across it and make the right decision come the time. We have to have quality young kids coming in every year or we set ourselves up for failure down the track, if we can get them later in the first round all the better. A lot will depend on what pick or picks we have.

Also, the nature of Tyson's possessions are that he is nearly always surrounded by extreme pressure, much more so than Grimes

Basically we need players to replace the 22 that consistently has played this year. Whether they're on our list and just injured (Trengove,Toumpas, Hogan), they still need to be replaced and become back up Terlich: HB flanker Bail: HF, Fpocket Mckenzie: Midfielder Gawn: Forward (he just doesnt cut it at this stage to be playing AFL) Matt Jones is questionable

Must confess ive never really understood the ideal of voting in a captain. I would have thought the coach and fd best placed to chooe someone who best represented what they were endeavouring to construct as a team and who personified a leader of it. I.e those that had been around the block and know the requirements etc choosing someone not the underlings. Platoons dont PICK their sergeant. Selection comes from above not below...surely.

Not what I heard or know from having met Steph on a few occasions. However, he is a very much different cat to most AFL players with a colossally high IQ. I always thought be played his best football as a key defender and recall he had a breakout game when we surprised the Brisbane Lions one night on the MCG. He was called upon to move into the ruck and play forward from time to time to cover vacancies in those spots and also had some injury problems (hip?). In the end, he was never settled as a player and we let him go in a trade which was probably fair in the circumstances where we were well served with ruck stocks, had Mitch Clark as well and were recruiting the likes of Dawes and Hogan. We weren't to know all the problems we were going to have with injuries and a premature retirement and Martin himself has had injury woes in the interim as well.

Oh but Armstrong is a victim, as is the Essendon Football Club, its coaches, club doctor and its players. A victim of the system within which they operate and of their own greed. As are those who Tim Lane describes in the article below as the "blind zealots" who support them. But they also happen to be bullies who believe they have been given privileges in life that entitle them to be so, whether we're talking Paul Little, the Murdoch bosses and their minions at Foxtel, in the Herald Sun and the Australian, their lawyers and PR merchants. That's why their particular brand of victimhood must not be permitted to overreach the rights of the clean athletes who work their backsides off to succeed in their sport. Lance Armstrong and the loss of innocence

A key forward requires precise delivery, not the rubbish he gets served, week in, week out. Needs to do some work on his marking, but his kicking is reliable. Unashamedly one of my favourites - a leader, an inspiration and works hard. Your post was dumb, thoughtless and emotive.

I will defend his efforts. He is one player whose effort is consistently excellent. His skill level is not, but that's got nothing to do with his effort.

I thought the long walk turns you fat and makes you burn gum leaves whilst trying to play guitar?

The AFL 'old dee', they didn't give us a PP. We should get one this year if they are serious about evening up the competition. It's sides like us that have born the brunt of the 2 new teams coming into the comp. That along with totally inept people running the club in the past has us where we are today. Roos can only do so much with this list, he's made a start but losing Clark then Hogan for most of the year hasn't helped. We need a serious injection of talent. The results at Casey are a good indication. People calling for changes, well who are you going to bring in? there is no one there worth a game.

Amazing finish, going to have to watch it again to see who did what but seeing both Gerrens and Cav both eat the road was not a great way to start the Tour. Cav looks gone and I'm sure will have a lot to say about it but his team went waaayyy to early and left him exposed when the real sprint came. Interesting to see Froome finish so high on a sprint finish... The Poms Fing love the event with huge huge crowds turning out in Yorkshire.

FB: Jetta Dunn Garland HB: Howe McDonald Grimes C: M. Jones Jones Vince HF: Kent Dawes Bail FF: JKH Frawley Pedersen Foll: Jamar Viney Tyson Int: Watts, Terlich McKenzie S: Blease Out: Gawn, Barry, Salem In: JKH, Jetta, Blease Most of this team went pretty well for us (besides Cross for McKenzie and Blease for Salem) for a number of weeks. Injuries and suspensions forced changes but really they didn't help. I think Roos knows he only has a core of about 18 or so good players and have to shuffle the others around. He's tried to reward consistent effort at Casey but it's not doing much. Dom Barry is about as close to AFL as I am and the last footy I played was Ammo's D3 reserves. He was picked due to doing his role at Casey but It's a bit of a fantasy scenario playing a tagger at Casey level as the AFL sub. Time to try some of what's at Casey in through the sub role - Blease, Tapscott, Michie. If any of them do enough as the sub they can get a full game.

I thought for the first 55 minutes our effort was really good, in fact at times I thought we looked the better side. If Dawes had nailed the two sitters he missed we would have been level in the second quarter. Then up stepped the skipper and missed the unmissable from 10 metres out on a slight angle. Absolutely horrendous miss from the leader of the club. Instead of being deservedly level, we then dropped our heads and conceded three late goals to blow the margin out at half time and all but end the contest. In a low-scoring defensive scrap you MUST take your chances. Our third quarter was horrendous though. You could just see the effort drop away, which was really disappointing. All of a sudden they started dominating contested footy and running around on their own. Interestingly for 85 minutes of the game we conceded only five goals, but in 35 minutes (last five of the second and all of the third) we conceded 10 goals. I accept though that the last quarter they took the foot off the pedal, but for all but the last five minutes of the first half we were in it. At the end of the day we just have too many battlers - triers who just lack class and ability. It means there are patches of games where you compete and try really hard, but ultimately you just undo your hard work with turnovers and a failure to convert opportunities up forward. Also difficult when your most talented ball user and creator has less impact on the contest than some of the spectators. I think Ben Dixon may have had more touches than Watts tonight. A last mention to the selectors. Seriously, what the hell was that about. We already made the mistake of going too tall against the Pies, and we go and do it again. Two specialist ruckmen in Darwin against a hard running side? Four key defenders against a forward line containing one key forward and a resting ruckman? We already have a weak midfield and instead of supporting that with more run we go in with a plethora of talls. Playing Gawn was a massive error - while he shows great potential as a future no.1 ruckman he should not play in the same team as Jamar. And McKenzie on Daniel Pearce, who is probably their sixth or seventh best midfielder - I don't know why you would bother tagging him. A really forgettable night all round.

Joeboy- depends on result

I am calm after this loss I think its just the realization Roos is doing best he can with what he has... hes inherited a list thats been smashed by years of terrible recruitment and player development Bring on the draft and trade period

You win a prize for being the first one. Congratulations.

It's not the difference between us winning and losing, so it's a non-factor. It's a 1%er when we're ignoring the 100%er: we don't give ourselves much chance of winning when we play like arse. Freo also played in Darwin tonight and I suspect they might make the finals.

David Evans to reappear in Essendon court case ""I keep hearing quite rightly that Essendon are having counselling meetings with the parents and players and reassuring them they are doing everything and reassuring them that their medical advice is that there are no long-term side effects," he said on 3AW. "I don't know how they can say that because on the other hand both ASADA and Essendon are saying we don't have exact knowledge of what was injected in the clear vials." Those vials were organised by Dank. -doc larkins"

Trading in a proven AFL PROVEN superstar vs 2 POTENTIAL superstars. People over-rate picks. I'd trade 4+5 in a heartbeat for an AFL proven superstar. Anyone who wouldn't hasn't learnt anything from the past 7-8 years. We've had more top draft picks than any club (bar expansion clubs) and still haven't landed a superstar. Just because a player is picked early doesn't guarantee he will be a star. Look at the previous #1 picks; Gibbs, Kreuzer, Watts, Scully, Swallow, Patton. None are stars, in fact none are anything better than B grade at this stage. If the draft were done again today, none of them would be taken top 5. It's luck of the draw, and if you have the opportunity to trade in a superstar, you do it.

A bit hard on Leuenberger, probably the best of that lot but injury prone. ...but I agree with you on Wright. Looks to be a ruckman and the only reason he will go as a high pick is some desperate sides needing KPP's.

4 and 5 for Dangerfield is spot on. He's a top 10 player in the competition. Assuming we finish somewhere between 15 and 12 and that Frawley leaves we will have 2 picks in the 4-8 range. Players picked between 4-8: 2008: Hartlett, Hurley, Yarran, Rich, Vickery 2007: Morton, Grant, Myers, Palmer, Henderson 2006: Leuenberger, Boak, Thorp, Selwood, B.Reid 2005: J.Kennedy, Pendlebury, Dowler, Ryder, Oakleigh-Nicholls 2004: Tambling, Franklin, Williams, Lewis, Meesen 2003: Ray, Mclean, Bradley, Tenace, R.Clarke Of the players listed above there is 1/30 (Pendlebury) that is better than Dangerfield and you can make the argument for 3 others (Selwood, Boak, Franklin). Of the remaining players there are 16 players I would describe as average (at best) players: Vickery, Morton, Grant, Myers, Leuenberger, Thorp, Dowler, Oakleigh-Nicholls, Tambling, Williams, Meesen, Ray, Mclean, Bradley, Tenace, R.Clarke. **Sure some of them have been injured/ had other issues, but at the end of the day they still haven't produced a big output. The remaining 10 being: Hartlett, Hurley, Yarran, Rich, Palmer, Henderson, B.Reid, J.Kennedy, Ryder, Lewis. Based on those numbers, from the 2 picks you'll get a player who won't make it (or will have minimal impact at AFL level) and a good to (potential) star level AFL player. Would you trade Pendlebury and Vickery for Dangerfield? No. Would you trade Yarran and Beau Dowler for Dangerfield? Every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

but for a team that needs to earn desperately after years of losing money we need to give ourselves have the best chance to make money

I think our mascot should be Sisyphus.

This is why i think demonland is great for a laugh. Every year it's the same. 1) Season goes off the rails 2) Supporters start longing for the off-season 3) Supporters start to get impatient between start of off-season and draft 4) Draft comes and goes and hope is restored 5) As pre-season kicks in to overdrive we looked really good, increasing optimism 6) Supporters start longing for games to begin 7) Season starts and inevitably, the process begins again

Clisby, Michie and JKH must come in. Casey are the Bermuda Triangle of the VFL.

9,290 is tonight's crowd in Darwin. not bad. YOu have to remember we are playing a top 4 team who were runners up last year. I mean we cant even beat the dogs or stkilda. Why would you think we would beat Freo? If we were 10-4 instead of the other way it would look more respectable. If in a year we are still doing this then we can worry more. Plus stupid port lost by 2 points to the bummers because they cant kick straight. what a crap night By the way we have dropped a spot on the ladder. Now under GWS.