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The worst thing is he worked incredibly hard to get into that position to take that simple chest mark. He gets lazy on the most easiest of things and we have baked him for it mercilessly. Frankly, I can't see the vision at work so I won't comment on what Roos said but the reaction here is 'same old, same old - getting flogged in every facet of the game.' That is simply not the case, we are up there in every contest and almost every measured area of the game, but our errors are catastrophic and I mentioned this after the Richmond game in the NAB Challenge - we are going to have these monumental errors because of the game style that Roos wants to play. Robinson is right - this 'bunch' is not suited to possession footy with a low margin, and tolerance, of error. Now, Roos has had to have thought about this and come to the conclusion that it is best for the 15 players who we will keep long term to play this style and develop good habits and execution even if it means that a great number of the current list cannot implement the game style effectively. I heartily agree with this, but I know it means that the players will be challenged immeasurably and they may struggle to cope and keep (build) their confidence. Fans screaming at their supposed 'lack of heart' isn't helping - there was plenty of heart in the 22 on Sunday - just not enough talent.

As a physiotherapist, a lot of the assumptions and assumed knowledge on here are frankly garbage. The reality is that soft tissue injuries do not present as a perfect formula. At best we give a framework management and likely return date at the point of diagnosis. This crystallises as the injury heals. Then we start to push toward 'game standard' training, having done everything as needed. Most of the time the plan stays on track, but sometimes that push to the next level results in symptoms. So we reassess and re calibrate the management. And so it goes again. It ISN'T a perfect system, and no matter how many forwards we have injured at once, and how many games we lose and by how much, it never will be. I know a lot of you want someone to blame, someone to be accountable for the rubbish like Saturday. The extension being that if we sack them and get the 'proper' person in, they'll solve it. The fitness and medical staff ARE NOT TO BLAME, so you're not going to ease your frustration and anger by wishing it were so.

You missed the whole point of the post. We have recruited following "experts and current wisdom" and we have recruited "speculatively" - neither have worked for us. To my mind there has always been a common ingredient in all these failed recipes. In the main it isn't the recruiters or the recruits - it is the club they have come they have come into which has failed miserably in terms of a strong culture, an environment to succeed, and an ability to develop players. When Roos say that "the players are better than they think are" ? What do you think he means ?

The injury list decoded (thanks to the good people at Bletchley Park) Available = 1 week Test = 1-2 weeks 1-2 weeks = 2-4 weeks 2-4 weeks = 4-6 weeks (the TJ special) 4-6 weeks = 8-12 weeks TBC = season TBA = expect a retirement announcement Indefinite = we're clueless.

I've spoken about Toumpas enough in other threads, I think he's making baby steps but still progressing fairly well. But honestly reading some of the comments here, you'd think Ollie Wines was a combination of Gary Ablett Jnr, Leigh Matthews and Haydn Bunton. I see one guy's claims he's "bordering on AA". Complete hyperbole, we've played 2 rounds! I guess using this logic, Jack Watts was "bordering on AA" as recently as yesterday morning. There's no doubt Wines is a gun and I'd give him at least a 60% chance of topping Toumpas' career, but for whatever reason our own fans are blowing his efforts to date way out of whack and at the same time will completely undersell Toump to suit their argument. I'd bet my bottom dollar these same people probably voted for Toumpas on the eve of the draft and would probably have started a thread on Wines' dodgy kicking technique by now if he played for us.

I needed to kill some time so I have made up a pointless visual comparing what we are missing against other teams 'Best 22.' The squads were named by the Hun earlier this year in which I have just copied and pasted. Tell me how we would go against the following teams if we were to take out there 3 key forwards, two best ruckman, best young midfielder and second best defender. Hopefully you can all work out who I am referring to there: The 'Champion' Hawkers outfit would look like: B: Stratton Lake Burgoyne H: Suckling ???? Birchall C: ???? Mitchell Hill HF: Breust ???? Rioli F: Puopolo ???? ???? R: ???? Lewis Hodge Int: Shiels, Whitecross, Schoenmakers, Sewell Removed: Gibson, Rough, Hale, Gunston, McEvoy, Smith + another ruckman needs to removed. How would we fair with our best 22? I always think we should be at a similar place to the tiges as we were bottoming out around the same stage and both known at one stage as a couple teams with young promising lists. The Tiges: B: Morris Rance Grimes HB: Newman ???? Houli C: Deledio Dusty ???? HF: ???? ???? Conca FF: Lennon ???? King R: ???? Cotchin Vlastuin INT: Jackson, Foley, Grigg & Thomas Removed: Ellis, Chaplin, Vickery, Riewoldt, Edwards, Hampson & Maric We would pump this outfit. Finally, the Eagles: B: Glass Brown Yeo HB: ???? Mackenzie Schofield C: ???? Priddis Hurn HF: Masten ???? Wellingham FF: ???? ???? ???? R: ???? Selwood Shuey INT: Rosa, Sheed, Hill, Hutchings Removed: Gaff (Viney), LeCras, Kennedy, Darling (our 3), Cox and NicNat. Anyway, it's just a visual to see how weak these teams would be without there quality that we are missing and why some people here should please restrain themselves from throwing in the towel. So don't give up yet and keep the faith!

Sylvia it is - circa 2003 written by Dominic Milesi who is now an assistant recruiting officer at Collingwood. If you want to have more fun - go back and read about our failed picks and see what the "experts" say about them. (I will say that Cook sounded iffy prior to the draft) Anybody and I mean anybody that says we should not have taken Scully as our first pick after reading every assessment of him is in lala land.

Tick Tock time is running out Sassy, Because we have recruited so abysmally in the past as has been canvased by other posters any comparison between Wines and Toumpas must be in the present. As a 50 + year old supporter of this club, I, like many are absolutely sick to the back teeth with lame recruiting of wrong types when our current and former needs have always been best player rather than speculative, "Elite" kicks, outside Run, Yadda Yadda etc. eg Cook, Maric, Strauss, et al. It all started when Diamond Jim Tilbrook was recruited for his "Prodigious" Kicking , problem was he never got it enough! We seem to have always been seduced by the finishing capabilities more so then the ball winners and lets face it you can't have too many of these types. The fact we have been smashed in the ball getting department for so Bloody long makes this blunder all the more unforgiveable. In fact I'll say it Now Ollie Wines is and will be much better than Jack Viney!! And so the inevitable comparison between Jimmy Toumpas is almost unfair. Fact Jimmy Toumpas possesions show a staggering 95 % uncontested. I could cop that if he had pace, hurt you on the attack and or rebound and kicks multiple goals. But he doesn't and I suspect won't. Is there anyone that doubts we would be a much better side with Wines rather than Toumpas at present? Nar people, the Blunders have been empathic and demonstrably inept and those who are responsible have badly let down the MFC to such an extent we may never get out of the holes we have dug for ourselves. Unfortunately unlike most holes these ones have pockets of Quicksand. Pick draw blood fester, and until someone with recruiting nous takes over we shall remain the rabble we are!

I hope he didn't. I don't think the fumbles and mistakes are laziness I think they are a lack of confidence.

. Roos was asked about it on 360. He said it was bollocks and only spoke to the team for 5 minutes.

It's futile, PSD. Do yourself a favour and don't engage. I make the same mistake far too often.

Are you back using drugs Top of the pile Jurrah over Rockliff - Flash and able to turn one out of every 10 games with no sense of the application required to play at the highest level against a kid who has shown he can do the hard yards and is nowBrisbanes Best player Bennell over Sloane - Left field selection over hard working mid who came regarded as having solid work ethic is now probably Adelaides best midfielder Cook over Darling - I understand why he was overlooked but he would have been great for us and every recruiter must have thought WTF when his name (Cook) was called, he may have been u/18 AA but size issues with step up for a KPP if not Darling then best available, Atley with great speed was available, Parker as a hard running mid was also there. Lazy recruiting again Maaric over S.Selwood - apparently an elite kick. over a player who comes from great pedigree and will be Meth Coasts next captain Blease over Shuey - Explosive pace but no tank and how hard would it have been to pick up on his inability to realise when to stop running with the ball Strauss over Zaharakhis/Beams/Hanneberry - elite kick again what makes this worse is plenty were talking about Hanneberry and he was right under our nose Morton over Dangerfield/Rioli/Harry Taylor/Ward/Brad Ebert - lazy recruiting Larke medallist "oh he must be good" when we could have had a game breaker with outside speed, a key defender, absolute battering ram hard nut mid, another good pedigree hard running mid FMD get some perspective, Toumpas can play Viney is not on the park and we went for an outsider having already picked up the inside mid in Viney it's the [censored] ups before the 2012 draft that we are paying for

How did your afl career go DemonDomination?

I reckon most posters here are stalwarts. They might post [censored] but they stick. Yet now I sense many are being worn down (myself included) by the constant failure of our club. Alternatives beckon. I fear for our survival.

On the subject of former Demons, there's one highly paid one who I saw play for GWS against St. Kilda. It was probably one of his highest possession games since crossing over from Melbourne. Pity about the game low 39% efficiency but many here would blame Neeld's coaching for that so it's understandable.

I take a broader view of AFL footy than many here and as I was walking home from the game on Sunday I wondered what I'd do to help the club if I was running the AFL. I couldn't come up with anything that is in any way possible. Some will argue for a priority pick but one PP next year will not solve our problems. The AFL have helped secure a competent CEO who has lured a competent coach but the problems seems so deep I just wonder how long is needed to rectify the damage done over the recent past and whether the MFC will survive that period. I know Scoop and know what a passionate supporter he is and what a passionate supporting family he comes from. I'm much older than him and in the not too distant past used to have restless nights in anticipation of a MFC game. But like Scoop I sat through Sundays game with not any excitement, no anticipation, no emotion and no anger. I just expected it. When we kicked our second goal in the third quarter I couldn't understand our supporters excitement. I reckon I'm as welded on as they come but on my walk home I also wondered how I could add some excitement to the year (because excitement is what footy used to be) and I'm seriously considering following another team for the year. Not forever, not paid up, but just to try and put some fun into footy. I've watched many of my passionate friends lose interest. They didn't want to but they just aren't interested in witnessing regular 100 point thrashings any more. They just don't enjoy being totally non competitive and I think, like me, many saw hope this year only to see it gutted on Sunday. I was absolutely bullish in the preseason. I saw a Darren Lehmann like led recovery. But as Choko said in a post, the players are mentally shot just as the supporters are mentally shot. Franky31 is another I know. His posts in the last few weeks are atypical and reek of the frustration of investing emotionally in this mob and I don't blame him. At least he has the energy to be angry but I'm not even angry any more. Tasmania will most probably have a team when the next TV rights come about. 19 teams don't seem practical. If we don't emerge very quickly and reactivate the supporter base there will hardly be a whimper when the oldest club in the competition is relocated. And that might suit the AFL very nicely. The next 10 weeks might well tell the most important part of our history.

Yes sure he has the right. But I am sick of it. He is part of the problem. He can either grit his teeth and help turn this club around, or continue to 'think' about 'his' future and play in a way that clearly displays it. And if that's the case he can [censored] off. I want players that play and care for the jumper and club. Frawley would be getting great money. He is playing and acting like a child.

I hope you're right... this is one of the only games I get to attend all year; would be nice to see a win for a change (although I'm not confident I will get my wish).

Absolutely loved the back and forth between Roosy & Bomba on AFL 360 when discussing Sunday's loss. Both completely on the same page and this common sense approach should be an eye opener to quite a few of the exciteable types on this forum. A video that captures most of it can be seen here: http://mobile.news.com.au/sport/afl/what-you-missed-on-tv-last-night-melbournes-heavy-loss-collingwood-and-carlton-coaches-talk-tough/story-fndv8g1a-1226870360307

Why are you criticising toumpas . Several posters are now lauding Lyndon Dunn who was perennially rubbished for years ....why can't we just let him develop. As roos said these young kids are not the messiahs......honestly some of you need to get a grip !!

I must be watching a different game of Toumps, because I reckon he's been alright in the first couple of games. He is one of very few who actually leads hard and doesn't give up after 5 steps. He doubles back and tries again unlike 90% of the team. This debate of Wines vs Toumpas is old and pointless, it also colours everyones expectations of him. The club didn't expect him to star in his first year, and so far he has shown good signs for the future IMO. He is the least of my worries.

Your user name is fitting. If you think Tyson wasn't getting a game at GWS due to ability, you're as misinformed as your posts.

Still hasn't played 10 games yet, but Dom Tyson has had over 30 touches in his first two games under Paul Roos high possession game plan. He is still a bit wasteful, but how long since we've had anyone who works hard on the inside and outside as well? No he is not getting tagged yet, but he is very young and is already taking a lot of pressure off Nathan Jones (the latter recording his two highest possession games first up). If Dom tidies up his ball use, I reckon we might finally have found a possible future A-Grader.

Jetta is a rookie and is as slow as a wet week. He would inject some mongrel but no pace. This is one of the things that pisses me off about the VFL. Not the Casey alignment but the whole comp. Seasons are not aligned. Byes are not aligned. It makes it so bloody difficult for clubs trying to bring injured players back. It makes it so bloody difficult for players to press their claims for selection. Blease as a case in point. I understand the calls for his reinstatement. He played well according to reports in Casey's last practice match. Put in for 4 quarters. Worked hard both ways. Gave the ball off when appropriate rather than just running. This is really encouraging. Sadly he's had no chance to further his claims. Additionally, for his development, you would like the coaching staff to be able to point to that game, congratulate him & give him feedback and then tell him that he has set his minimum requirement for the next three weeks. If he consistently plays at that level he will be selected in the seniors where he will be asked to continue what he'd been doing at Casey. But of course there have been no [censored] games for him to play in Now if he is to play this week, it won't be because he has earned it with sustained performance & meeting the criteria of his coaches. It will be because someone else is so crap they need replacing How the hell do you develop players like that !

Should be easier than that. Go for Hunger, bit of mongrel and ball winning ability and you won't go far wrong! Whether they be mids, forwards or backs

Ox unleashes on Frawley Melbourne legend David Schwarz has taken aim at key defender James Frawley following the club's big loss to the Eagles. Speaking on his program on SEN, the man known as the Ox felt Frawley wasn't living up to his potential and him know in no uncertain terms. "I watch him and I get so frustrated 'cause the bloke can play footy. But he is not … I don't know whether it's motivation or he doesn't care, but his decision making and his finishing for a quality player, is crap. It's nowhere near where it needs to be. If James Frawley is going to go on the open market at the end of the year - and he can do that, that's his prerogative - but I tell you now, clubs pick up on certain traits and one thing and I heard Brad Scott speak about it with Boomer Harvey, one thing is you can't question someone's endeavour. Well I reckon there's someone questioning James' endeavour at times. I love James Frawley, I've been his biggest supporter but every time Melbourne plays bad, James Frawley is one player that for some reason can't hold down his position. I know he's getting bombarded. He's a full back that's probably seen more footy as a fullback than any other full back in the last five years. (But he's a) Super player … I just don't understand why that positional, that his effort or the way that he's playing is representative of that at moment. He's nowhere near representative of that."

At this stage if he leaves Band 1 compo which we would get for chip if he gets paid 800k for 4-5 years would be pick 2 obviously you'd like to hang onto senior players, in this case the ship seems like it's already sailed, and pick 2 isn't a terrible outcome, we probably get the better of that deal all things considered.

I love using statistics to make an argument. For example, Shannon Byrnes is clearly the outstanding forward in the competition in 2014 having kicked 40% of his team's goals.

Watts forward? Because he's great at taking uncontested chest marks inside 50 without a oppostion player near him....... no wait!

The way I see it, we have a number of problems and issues at the club running together at the same time. It's still a young list with depth problems and these are biting hard at this time of the year when we can't get anything near our best on the park. The fact that most of the missing are from our taller brigade has left a gaping hole in the make up of the side when it runs out and the problem is compounded by the psychological factor among the playing group knowing that they don't have the big men around the ground and up forward to take the marks and kick the goals. We are currently physically and mentally hobbled and, once we're under the pump, the old issues stemming from a poor culture of losing over a long period of time kicks in and we tend to collapse entirely under pressure. These issues won't go away overnight but I'm confident that Roos has identified the problems (he's alluded to it on a few occasions now) - it's a question of how is he going to deal with it because he can't conjure up the ruckmen and key position forwards he needs overnight. He is also trying to instil a new game plan that he knows can't be perfected in a short space of time so he's going to stick to that plan despite last Sunday's result. He can tinker with it at the sides and my best guess is that he will bring in one or two medium size players to instil some pace but otherwise he doesn't have a great deal of ammunition to play with at the moment. He does have the benefit of playing against teams in the next few weeks that are nowhere near as strong as the Eagles who are, based on the two games to date and the NAB Challenge the form team of the competition and at full strength. Not that I'm taking GWS at Spotless Stadium lightly but if we can get off to a good start and not mess things up with appalling kicking for goal as we did against St. Kilda we can get things back on track fairly quickly even if there's still some pain to be experienced when we play the big guns.

I think it's not quite right to call him a reject. It's not like he wasn't good enough to play in their side. It is more that they have a stack of hard ball-winning mids who are younger than him and there are only so many you can fit in the team. Think of it more as a forced retirement rather than cutting a player they didn't want. They would have preferred to keep him on in a coaching support role, but he wanted to keep playing and we got lucky.

Wyl who said I was happy, I have just pointed out the draft choices we made which were far worse than the one you claim was top of the pile. You keep telling me you set high standards, take that ethos into your posting

I think Roos said a fresh team the implication being it would cut ties with what just happened to change the mind set. He is trying to get them to forget the past. My bet is he will put Dunn at FF and watts across HF with Gawn at CHF. We need the to provide the crumbs for blease. I expect terlich to be moved forward as well. Perhaps trenners to terlichs position. Howie to the wing. Could be an interesting week.

If they come out and say as much, then we'll be heading for a loss. How long now have we come out and talked the talk, and have failed to follow it up with actions? I'm sick of talk, from anyone at the club. How about shutting up and doing what is expected from them for a change, for more than 1 week at a time?

Watts should be played forward anyway. He was one of the most impressive junior forwards I've seen. It is only because our midfielders have lacked skills, poise and decision making that Watts was moved outside the forward line. Watts is fine as a forward, he'll go very well. We will need to stop bombing it in though, we will need to move the ball fast and get it into Vince/Toumpas hands and use Watts and Howe is mobile forwards. JKH as flanker running back hard - Pagans paddock style, open the forward line up... Have our forward line work to our advantage. Roos looked rattled tonight on 360, so we'll find out how good of a strategist he really is on the weekend.

Listening to Roosy he was in no way flustered. He sounded like a man who knows what has to be done and he is the man to do it. He always referred to MFC as either "us" or "we". (Nice change from previous one) He also clarified that when he was talking about the players ie dropped marks, missing target etc that he was directly answering a question and not blaming the players. Also said that his coaching on the day was "deplorable" cause he was in charge of the players and they throw that performance up. This was in response to a ques from Robbo I think when he ask do u take any responsibility. If we r to get out of this he is the man to do it. Love listening to this man talk. Will love it even more when his talk turns into players actions.

Go easy, Evans is back this week almost 12 months after hurting his toe. Guys all over it.......

Certainly didn't seem rattled to me .....I always feel calm after I hear him talk !!

What I took out of the whole segment is we need to ask bomber if he is interested him and Roos seem to be on the same page with everything

I was hoping it could be a whole new team with previously unavailable players taking their positions in the side!

some very good players had remarkably similar stats and criticisms to Toumpas in his first three years Cotchin Swan Hodge Ablett Toumpas 1st 16.4 disposals 9.0 disposals 15.5 disposals 8.3 disposals 12.0 disposals 2nd 17.7 disposals 13.2 disposals 12.9 disposals 14.9 disposals 17.7 disposals 3rd 19.5 disposals 16.7 disposals 15.7 disposals 14.3 disposals Ablett, Cotchin and Swan were all accused of being soft, Jimmy Toumpas is doing fine.

I for one think Scully will stay.

Let's write off a just turned 20 year old midfielder in his second season. Makes sense. He is far from our worse and is developing just fine. So many irrational idiots on this forum sometimes. EDIT: For the idiots. Here is his career averages from last season and so far this season. Look at them and have a look at his progress already. Year Team Games Kicks Handballs Disposals Marks Goals Melbourne 2 11.0 6.5 17.5 6.5 1.0 Melbourne 14 6.6 5.4 12.0 3.1 0.0

When your main causes for concern are elementary mistakes and questionable effort then 9 coaches out of ten (if not 10/10) will pretty much say the same thing. Grant Thomas is (apparently) an exception of course. Roos and Neeld both faced the same instance of fundamental errors. Both made the same correct observations however Neeld did not have the management ability, training regime or the group's buy in to address it (apparently). You judge a coach by their results not who/what they sound like. The peanut who wrote this article should take that on board. FWIW Roos played the same team as per round 1. Showed faith, prioritised stability and got a very average return. It is his job to see who is up to AFL standard (or can get there) and who can't. There is no connection of this to the fact that Roos' tenure is not yet set in concrete. I'm sure the playing group and the supporters would appreciate clarity but this article is trying to join dots that aren't there.

There were heaps worse than Toumpas yesterday. Leave him alone.

Certify me people...but I reckon we might get a positive reaction to that dreadful performance. I sat there yesterday wondering how we got close to Geelong and beat Richmond in the preseason - yeah I know those games are not truly real - but I am hoping for some spirit next week. It really was an out of the box shocker when you consider Watt's spilling an uncontested chest mark, Frawley's double turnovers, the fumbling, the lack of run - basic stuff that they were clearly working on in the off season. So maybe that returns this week after a couple of heads roll. And clearly selection was wanting since Fitz could not possibly have been fully recovered from that head knock - surprised no journo thought to raise it. So better stuff next week. Heads up and once more into the breach!

Jimmy Toumpas played well yesterday. He's getting the pace of the game with each outing, is creative, clever with his disposals, and has a great tank for a kid his age. The negative absolutism on here in savaging someone who has played a handful of games for a rubbish team is just pathetic. As our youngest 2 players (excl JKH) out there, he and Dom Tyson showed a lot yesterday. Many of the comments on here are simply embarrassing.

This happens to me every year, my son is now 12 and he used to love footy, he came to the saints game last week with new hope, but after the game said i thought we were going to be better this year dad. Didnt come yesterday for obvious reasons. This is what this team has done, it has killed the love of football for so many young Dees...... My son has seen three wins in five years of watching footy, thats a disgrace, football shouldnt be like this.

What we are witnessing is a list with a number of players who are not only scarred and completely devoid of confidence but are also seriously lacking in talent and footy nous. What a great combination to have. People may bang on about playing for the jumper, putting in 100% effort, greater intensity, etc. but I'm not sure if such people were actually at the game yesterday. There was nothing wrong with our effort, our desire, our intensity. I thought we tried hard and battled on for four quarters. The difference was the gulf in class, talent, footy nous and confidence. Early in the game West Coast dominated out of the centre, but I thought we gradually became more competitive in that area after quarter time. What killed us after quarter time was either a terrible kick or a stupid decision forward of centre that created either a turnover or a 50/50 (which the Eagles invariably won). From there the Eagles would just counter-attack and run in numbers down the ground and kick an easy goal. Yes, a few tall forwards would have definitely helped, but this does not excuse the sheer ineptitude on display during some of our forward moves and the way we failed to defend the turnover. Unfortunately it looks like we are a League 1 side playing in the English Premier League. We are playing in a division that at this point in time is too good for us. That's not to say it will always be this way, but the simple fact is we are a long, long, long way off even being competitive with the top sides in the league. You can make excuses each week and say this and that, but on talent and confidence and decision making we are currently not up to scratch. We're not an AFL standard team and that's why we cop 100 point beltings. It's just so depressing when you watch a round of AFL footy and see some great games, close contests and tight battles, and then you rock up to watch your team (something that we all love doing) and the game is not even a contest at any stage. You get nothing from it - no highlights, no memorable passage of play, nothing to enjoy - and perhaps even worse you don't feel any emotion. I just sat there watching the game totally withdrawn, with no rage and no anger at what was unfolding in front of me. Can you imagine a more peaceful 100 point loss? Normally you would feel gutted, but not us Melbourne supporters, we've had it all beaten out of us to the point where we just turn up waiting for it to happen.

with all due respect Hogan has proved zilch hope is not fact