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Hi. First post. I'm from Geelong and so have followed Neeld's career for a while. Melbourne supporter for 45 years. There was a moment after the drawn Grand Final when Neeld was the midfield coach (I think) for the Pies. A minute or two after the final siren, the TV coverage was zooming in on players and coaches in shock, trying to deal with the fact that they had another week to go. The camera then panned past Neeld and he already had his midfield group in a huddle and he was busy preparing them for the following week. Meanwhile Buckley, Malthouse et. al. were falling about looking helpless. I said to myself then that Collingwood would win the following week... If you track his coaching career, he's had nothing but success. 4 consecutive premierships at Ocean Grove. He turned Western Jets from perennial whipping boys (could barely win a game) to finalists in three seasons. In between he was at St. Josephs in the GFL for a year and he completely turned over the list and went with youngsters but then was offered assistant positions at Bulldogs and Collingwood. Wherever he's been he has won friends and made enemies - because he is clear about what is needed for clubs to be successful and he just goes for it. Players liked him at Collingwood. He identified a soft culture at MFC - a whole host of players who were just happy being AFL players (win, lose or draw. He's given them a chance to show that they want to win and those who haven't shown enough have been shown the door. There'll be more. Not exactly a recipe for making friends. I sense (I don't know) that there are still players who are dark on him for having lost mates from the club. For Neeld, he wouldn't care less. His job is to find a group of players who will work hard together to become successful. That's my take on him. He's made mistakes but he won't die wondering. Stick with him. Give him his three years. On Sunday I saw a far more competitive effort by a group who were hopelessly outclassed and still low on confidence. We need another go at the draft table for Neeld to assemble the kind of group that he'd be happy with. Leave him be. Support the club. When the wins come, enjoy them.

Fair enough. I'm just citing him as a pattern begins to emerge. I noticed JV and Evans blocking for Nate Jones, I saw Sylvia standing up, I saw a little bit of the Frawley of old, I saw Matt Jones go hard, I saw Garland breaking lines. Baby steps.

#2 Melbourne – Luke Dunstan (SA –Mid/Fwd) Height: 184cm, Weight: 82kg, DOB: 29/01/1995 Recruited from: Woodville-West Torrens Style: Dustin Martin Player comparison: Range: 1-5 Profile: Dunstan is a dominant inside midfielder with a really strong body. Really damaging player who will not only win his own footy every time he goes in for it but then will do big damage with it. Dunstan has very damaging footskills and is a really natural finisher anywhere near goal. Not only is Dunstan an exceptional inside player but he can also swing forward, take a mark and hit the scoreboard when given the opportunity and I expect he will continue to be a very damaging player at the next level. For this reason alone we won't touch him.

Re-posted Mark Neeld has appeared to have correctly identified the appalling long term lack of appropriate "culture" at Melbourne and is dealing with it as his major priority as senior coach. Melbourne has not had real leaders (or indeed leaders amongst its senior players) since the early days of the Daniher era. Daniher oversaw the change of senior players from Lyon, Tingay, G & B Lovitt, Viney, Stynes, Walsh, Ward, N. Brown, M & S Febey, Leoncelli and Ingerson amongst others to such as Bruce, Green, Wheelan, James McDonald, Robertson, Neitz, Johnstone, White and Yze. Of the latter group I would only put Wheelan, Neitz and McDonald as being worthy successors but am of the view that Neitz and McDonald did not have the personality to impose themselves on the playing group and while they were terrific footballers who gave their all for the Club, could not translate this to ensuring that those young recruits who followed learnt to give what they gave as footballers. As a result of the overall lack of strong personalities the playing list became lazy and self-centered. I am not convinced that anything like the splendid "culture" existing at Geelong and Sydney could become part of the Melbourne ethos, or that Neeld's approach is the correct one to bring it about. However, the steps he is taking appear to be logical and realistic. I am certain that if this remedial work is not performed, this Club is going to remain about where it is until it folds for lack of interest. If whose who scream for the immediate appointment of a new coach are successful I accept that in the short term we may win a few more games over the next couple of years, however, without the change in culture it is currently undergoing, the Club is doomed to mediocrity. Unfortunately, this cannot be brought about in a few weeks, or even one season. Of those who were delisted last year, I noted real gnashing of teeth by supporters over only Rivers, Gysbert and Moloney. To suggest that Melbourne had a greater hold over Rivers than for example St. Kilda had over Goddard is not realistic. Rivers has taken the opportunity to play with a team with a famous culture, discipline and which has real hopes of immediate success. All strength to him. Stan Alves and Greg Wells did the same with varying success decades ago. Gysbert was sadly a victim of the Club's lack of ability to develop young players of promise, which is in part the immediate problem Neeld is attempting to deal with. While our drafting may appear extremely moderate over recent years, how many of those chosen who have not realized their full potential would have succeeded at other clubs? Moloney to my mind is one of those at fault in continuing the toxic culture and if we are to improve long term, he had to go. Brock McLean is an example of the point I am trying to make. At Melbourne he became noted for doing wheelies in the car park and getting into fights outside drinking venue's. I was delighted when he left. It has taken some years and it now pains me greatly to admit that he is playing excellent disciplined football. It would simply not have happened in the team he left. Further to the suggestion trumpeted by his critics that this is Neeld's team, therefore he must take all the blame, it remains the fact that 25 listed melbourne players at the start of 2011 are now on the senior list. It will be much closer to being his team after the draft this year, if he remains in power. He has however recruited a number of players from other clubs who are now roundly ciriticised. I believe this is criticism without consideration to the real reason for the drafting of many of them. Clark is probably the AFL recruiting coup of the last two years. He provides real on and off field leadership. A perfect mentor for such as Jesse Hogan. Dawes is an intelligent and articulate leader coming from a strong club. His excellent article in the Age set out his understanding of Neeld's focus. Again he is a leader on and off the field (I say that having followed his career with interest at Collingwood). In his one NAB appearance the whole forward line seemed much better structured. Byrnes is a (multiple?) best clubman winner at Geelong. Again he brings his experience to the club and in my view has also provided good leadership on the ground. Roden is also an excellent trainer and apparently a personality about the Club. He is there to teach because there are not many others who can (and hopefully play a bit). Each of the above were picked up for far more than their football ability. Of the others, Sellar was probably a Neil Craig pick and has played some solid games in defence. Gillies comes from a team with a great attitude and was good enough to play 13 games for Geelong (although I haven't yet seen why) and Pedersen also comes as a senior player with experience at another Club (although again his on field performance has been underwhelming). Only Clarke of this list may be/become an A grader, however, each of them do far more for the Club in the terms of what they bring on and off the training track than a few young late numbered draft picks who would quickly become culture victims (or retaining Moloney, Gysbert, Morton Bennell et al). They have mostly been chosen for the short term in their own careers, but for the long term good of the Club. Without their potential influence I would despair (even more) about the future of potential stars such as Toumpas and Hogan. If all Neeld does as our senior coach is to bring about enormous and vital changes in attitude at Melbourne, he will to my mind have been a success. He must be given at least to the end of this year and probably to the end of the next to cement changes, otherwise I fear we are doomed to spend the rest of its existance supporting a team at the bottom quarter of the AFL ladder.

The scoreline at half time did not reflect the game. We had a stack of forward 50 entries and we were unlucky/too inexperienced to capitalise on them. Did not help that we had Mitch Clark out. He kicks goals on the smell of an oily rag, and we actually had the fuel pumps flowing for a while there. I thought there were some very encouraging signs from that game - especially the second quarter. But heh - let's bag Neeld instead. It seems to have become a hobby for many of you. Pity it's so bloody boring/repetitive.

Yes i agree Jumbo. I have said previously that to me it was evident in the first 3 rounds that Neeld did not have the players on board but that perhaps something had changed as evidenced by the last quarter against GWS and big chunks against the lions, a change perhaps as a result of changes in how he is going about it and maybe on the back of the visit to Sorrento to clear the air. A flame flickering i called it. We'll i think the flame is burning a little brighter after the weekend. Yes we made tonnes of errors but we fought hard and played with the sort of spirit that is displayed when players are playing for their coach. Some sample quotes from the wrap up of the game by Greg Baum (a writer i respect): "Melbourne played like men possessed..... The Demons ran and attacked and harried and harassed and fought and fetched the ball out of trouble and into it again.......... The Melbourne men put their heads over the ball with such commitment that they won the free kick count 26-16, .......... For much of the evening, Melbourne led the inside 50 count, the contested possession count and the clearance count, all dimensions of dedication, ........ Melbourne demonstrated fanatical work ethic, and pride, and spirit, and heart .........." This attributes are exactly what DL posters have been screaming for and are what we saw on the weekend. Add to that we were a rotation down for much of the game thanks to an injury to one of our most prolific ball winners yet we did not throw in the towel and like the game against the lions kept going to the final siren. I loved the feeling i got when i saw players committed to the contest. Stuff the turnovers - i'm used to them. The dees had 4 of our best 22 out (5 if you count Jetta which i do) and a bunch of changes from the previous week (which always has a negative impact on a teams chances). With the lineup we had a ten goal loss was ok and was an accurate measure of the difference between the sides as Carlton played a hard brand and were looking to put us to the sword (as opposed to say the Cats who toyed with dogs the previous week). As a commentator during the game noted they were ruthless. And we could have easily been 2-3 goals closer if we had taken some basic chances like the Viney miss (which ended up being 2 goal turn around and was real shame as there was a great build up). Good on the boys for having a dip and credit where credit is due for Neeld for getting them up for the game and remaining positive. I have said consistently that it will be results (as measured by an absence of hammerings and the occasional win) that will determine Neelds fate and these results are determined by the players spirit and willingness to play for their coach. The flame is burning a bit brighter and so perhaps are Neelds chances of remaining coach. Again this week will tell a huge story. I hope we come out and play fantical footy from the get go. Go dees.

He got ridden into the ground at full tilt you pelican. I reckon the most durable of players would've struggled to come out unscathed from that incident. FMD.

Has anyone noticed that a core group of players such as Matt Jones, Nathan Jones, Terlich, Garland, Howe, Gawnanator, Grimes, Viney,tMac and Tappy are starting to build a good core group. Oh and i forgot, especially Colin Sylvia, the guy has now put in a complete start to the year (except for the bombers game, which we all got obliterated). This core group, plus Clark, Dawes, Toump and Hogan to come in can actually make Melbourne into something. I seriously am confident that this can become our future. We may not be classy yet, but With Matt Jones and Nathan Jones these two ball magnets can lead us. Note have left out Watts andTrengove as i am really confused to the way they have been going lately, quite disappointed actually

I'm surprised Walls hasn't called for Neeld to give Trengove a run in the ruck. Making Jones our captain (at the expense of Trengove) mid-season would be a terrible move. The only thing I could see us doing is appointing him our third co-captain while Grimes is injured. I'd back this move, but anything else would be moronic and possibly harmful to the culture of our club.

Thank the lord RR is no longer a mod.. One can clearly see why. I'm a bit in between when it comes to Neeld. How Rhino thinks it's all his fault I will never know, but he has made some odd decisions in terms of recruiting as well as how the game plan looks to be. Whilst this is a thread about 'Neeld', I would like to highlight the fact that the MFC have the worst list in the AFL by a country mile. No coach can fix the conditioned skill level of players or their ability to make smart decisions. Neeld was given this list and whilst I dot agree with everything he has implemented, it is not him who is making terrible errors time after time. I don't know if people overrate our list or what it is, but it seems pretty obvious that our recruiters over the past 6 or 7 years have completely neglected key attributes such as disposal efficiency and decision making. When you mix that with a losing culture and poor/lazy training habits over several years, it's obviously going to be tough to fix. No coach can fix it in fact. People bang on about Port Adelaide and how they've turned it around so easily and it's very irritating. They clearly have a much better list than us. The only difference has been the intensity in which they play. They have smart players that make sound decisions. Hartlett on his own is unbelievable and makes a huge difference to their side. We have shown the required intensity it times to match it with teams. The only reason we seem to end up being down during those times in games is because of our deplorable disposal and terrible decision making. 80 percent of our side has below average disposal skills and decision making ability. Bail, Evans, Mackenzie, grimes, Nicholson, McDonald etc etc. We have such a bad bad list. There are so many factors involved, blaming Neeld solely is extremely naive. We've got a long way to go.

Has anyone noticed...that Richmond is ninth again? But Mark Jamar has been way better than Jake Spencer's game today.

It's remarks like this that make me remember there are actual delusional Melbourne supporters. Mate our youngest side for the year was out there and showed the most fight physically all year. Sure we lack polish and composure but hey I at last walked away yesterday thinking they had a crack. Oh and Jamar would have floundered 15 meters away from warnock all day, at least pencil stayed with him. First game for the season to on a seasoned ruck. Glad your not a selector mate .... Zero idea.

How about everyone stops worrying about who runs out first and tosses the coin and the leadership group just all do their bit. This is what should be happening anyway.

A leader is a man who leads; a captain is a man who tosses a coin every week. Nathan Jones is a leader. He needs no titles.

Exactly how I see it. I was annoyed at Bailey getting the boot for the same reason. Just as (imo) we were on the cusp of getting something solid together, 186 happens, people panic, and away he goes. In comes Neeld, and again, just as the players start to get their head around the new regime, the processes, training, game plan, whatever... we want to flick him. And what? Back to square 1 again? Seems to me like it's been 1 step forward 2 steps back, basically since Daniher. Like it or hate him, we need to stick with him, at least for the duration of his term.

MRP Now can we get the free kick back?

Here is list comparing our 100+ gamers to the next worse Victorian team in the Bulldogs and also some highly rated opposition. Demons Bulldogs Magpies Hawks Cats Swans Rodan 179 Giansiracusa 234 Johnson 235 Guerra 241 Corey 259 Goodes 325 Davey 162 Murphy 233 Jolly 231 Burgoyne 227 Enright 250 Bolton 307 Sylvia 144 Boyd 210 Lynch 215 Mitchell 227 Chapman 247 O'Keefe 263 Jones 141 Cross 203 Didak 213 Hodge 210 Bartel 231 Mattner 221 Jamar 129 Cooney 188 Swan 202 Lake 199 Kelly 216 McVeigh 200 McDonald 123 Griffen 167 Ball 193 Hale 179 Johnson 200 Shaw 189 Byrnes 114 Morris 157 Maxwell 181 Lewis 175 Hunt 186 Richards 187 Frawley 107 Minson 142 Cloke 180 Sewell 172 Mackie 179 LRT 174 Dunn 101 Higgans 109 O'Brien 165 Franklin 167 Rivers 153 Malceski 132 Hudson 164 Osbourne 166 Selwood 141 Grundy 120 Shaw 158 Roughhead 165 Stokes 137 Jack 120 Thomas 156 Birchell 158 Taylor 118 McGlynn 110 Pendulbury 154 Gibson 130 MacIntosh 107 Tippit 104 Krakour 130 Rioli 111 Hawkins 106 Russell 121 Varcoe 104 Young 116 Lonergan 103 Toovey 114 My knowledge of other teams playing group is not as great as it is with the dees, but I'll have a guess at clubs best 22 makeup. Demons: 9 players 100+ five, arguably six of these are best 22 Bulldogs: 9 players 100+ 8/9 best 22 Magpies: 17 players 100+ 12/17 comfortably best 22 with the rest being solid replacements Hawks: 14 players 100+ 13/14 are best 22 Cats: 16 players 100+ 15/16 are best 22 Swants: 13 players 100+ 12/13 are best 22 Now here is a collection of random thoughts; We have the fewest number of best 22 players with over 100 games experience. Only Jones and Frawley can say that they put consistent games week in week out (I know Frawley hasn't had the best start to the year but he is a quality defender putting up with a barrage of inside 50's every single week). So we have a total of two players that we can safely rely on in a week to week basis to perform to a high standard. Compare that to the Magpies who have a dozen players with greater than 100 games experience who put in consistent high quality football. Scarily, this is just looking at it from a quantitative perspective. I think we all know about the quality footballers with experience in the top opposition teams compared to the lack thereof in our own. We are going to be in for a world of hurt for a lot longer unless we can trade in or win over some high quality free agents at the end of the season. We are in desperate need for on field leaders with experience. With all due respect to Sylvia and Jones, it is an embarrassment to see them run out as our most experienced players on a weekly basis... they're 27 and 25 ffs. Jack Trengove is our 13th most experienced player out of 45 listed players with 64 games at 21 years of age. Watts is our 16th most experienced with 59 games at 22years. Our 22nd most experienced player is a 3rd year player with 25 games under his belt in Tom McDonald. Collingwood's 22nd most experienced is Nathan Brown with 74. What I would give to acquire two or three free agents in Lenny Hayes, James Bartel, Sam Mitchell if only for a year or two. Edit: Formatting

I love reading the bio's of the draftees's - its like Danos direct - the advertising on TV looks so good but the reality aint so good - not just for us but for everyone - have a look back over the bio's for Scullys draft - a whole lot of underperformers there

This highlights the problem with the thinking on here. Bad performance - sack Neeld, Good performance - MFC finals bound, intermediate performance - react depending on last game. I think that those who no longer support Neeld would and should not have been influenced by yesterdays game. Many here are glorifying endeavour and presenting it as proof the coach has not lost the players. Such short term thinking is flawed. What should be focused on is one win and 5 losses. 840 points against in 6 games - that's 140 points a game and that is with a full compliment of important back line players available. One win against a non development club in 28 games since Neeld started - and none this year. An average losing margin of greater than 10 goals this year. A team that plays with little of no system or enthusiasm. That people are trying to defend the coach based on a 10 goal loss to Carlton suggests the propaganda coming from the Club has been highly successful. We were very ordinary yesterday (as we have been for the whole season) and that is the product of 18 months under this football department. Thankfully I believe Peter Jackson will not be seduced by the positives some here are highlighting. When I ask myself if I can see a successful future under Neeld I just can't. When I ask myself where he ranks against the 17 other current AFL coaches he's bottom quartile. If we are to succeed I believe we need much better.

Maybe not in a straight line, but he's got a tuning circle that rivals Cyril Rioli. He's also tough as nails and runs both ways. Easily best 22, IMO

That's true. I don't blame people for looking forward to it as there isn't much else but it's just sad.

I must admit I had expected Garland or Frawley play forward this week. But rather than criticise, I'll say that (1) leaving Garland and Frawley in the backline and (2) playing Dunn on Judd - which occurred because Garland and Frawley both played back - were the correct moves. I thought they were the three of our best on the day.

The bungle was in trading for him at all. Pedersen is a lemon. Has ok hands, is an ok kick, slow and with no footy smarts at all. I'm perfectly happy to see him on the sidelines.

The clearest thing for me from todays game is Jamar should not play again unless Gawn and Spencer are both injured.

I think he talks out of his ass most of the time but I gotta say I agree with this. It solves many problems. Firstly I think the responsibilities are too much for Trenners to take on his own at the moment. He really needs to focus on his game more than anything else, with Jones as his co-captain he can do that. Secondly I think most people can agree that Jones is the only one apart from Clark who consistently leads from the front. Although I this Grimes can become a good captain for us, we can't have someone with the form of Trenners as a sole captain. Thirdly I think it rewards Nathan for his hard work over the last 3 years, he is the heart and sole of our club and I reckon it would officially recognise that. With Grimes injury I think we can also do it while saving a bit of face, with everyone in the media constantly saying Jones should be captain we can just say that we feel Trengove needs support at this time.

Nothing better to do on the couch with the flu. So thought Id pen a few thoughts. These wont wear well with many here. i couldnt care less. This for mine is a very Black and White review of our Red and Blue. By that I mean I havent tried to gloss anything. Im just calling it as I see it. I re-iterate for those unaware. To me the players as individuals or personalities matter not one iota. Its how any and all participate and add value to a team that matters to me. Far to much leeway is given for my comfort to many players. They are paid ( very well ) professionals , doing a job they choose and love. So youd think theyd be at the cutting edge and keen as mustard. Well my-my dont some seem to get very cozy with it all and offer up very 2nd rate performances. I am still agape that we seem to have so many on our list incapable of the the fundamentals of this game. How any one gets on an AFL list and cant kick for **** is beyond me. How some cant handball to a player 2m away and not get them is laughable. How some think its a good idea to kick to a 3 on 1 contest is beyond my comprehension. Why do some think its fun to run BESIDE the oposition. Havent they heard od shepherding anymore. !! If I was really negative id say we have more than our fair share of numnuts on our list but I will now try to be a tad more candid and simply appraise in a very straightforward way. So far the Coaches and FD have earnt a massive 10 foot high FAIL. Irrespective of any supposed advances and improvements we are effectively the easy beats of the competition. Yes folks play us and we will play you back into form whilst offering the bonus of a healthy percentage boost. Do I particulalry like making parody of our beloved Dees ? Of course not but I cant take them seriously,i mean who does. Well here we go Nathan Jones Has developed himself wonderfully. Is what I would call a real footballer in that he actually has the skills and nouse and grunt to play the game. He gains a high pass Jack Watts Ive been a masive fan over the journey but my fondness is dulling. Heres a guy who could and should be everything, he ought to be our Nick Reiwoldt but for what ever reasons really runs hard without effecting too much of the game. Currently a major disappointment. If he can immerse himself into the game he could really be something. I still have fingers crossed but he'll probably end up elsewhere. He seems to have gone backwards. Currently a fail Jimmy Toumpas Was thought to be a ready made, he isnt. Is a bit underdone for AFL really atm but will come on I suspect and probably get some exposure in latter half of thi sseason in preparation for next year. Another good hard preseason and some maturity will benefit him.. Neither pass nor fail. A project thats coming along. Chri Dawes Unknown really. Many want him to be a mini messiah , he wont be. He will and ought to provide a good 2nd option up front and will have to step up in the absence of Clark. Very much a watch this space. Im curious, and hopeful Jack Viney The would be soul of the team. Trying to do too much currently. Hasnt made a consistent impact yet , but he will. A pass James Frawley Finally finding some old form. Tentative ( and conditional ) pass , providing he maintains his intensity and focus. Canbe costly with the ball and needs to better this aspect of his game. Jack Trengove Jack cant be right. Hes slow and ineffective. Unsure of what he offers on the filed in terms of leadership but I wouldt be too impressed personally. That may seem harsh but you wear the stripes you takes the criticisms. Has gone backwards. Currently a Fail Shannon Byrnes Part of the great experiment. Brought in to provide small forward options. Havent seen much to write about. Fail Mitch Clark The great hope spends more time sidelined. Will he ever get a whole season in ? Hes hovering on Fail currently. If you arent on the park what use are you. Has to be said Colin Sylvia The great pretender. Runs around at about 75% effort. Makes cameo “look at me “ efforts. He ought to be tearing teams another orifice but never has. Whilst he is a Melbourne player we will never advance for he epitomoises compromise and settling for second best. In terms of ability..a massive fail Jordie McKenzie Nuggetty, great endeavour, crucifies the ball. Undoes all his good work with brain fades.. Does make it hard for his opponents though. Currently gets a gig because others cant usurp him. Thats not a great recommendation. Sneaks past as a conditional pass Lynden Dunn has reinvented himself and woken up to whats required. If only Sylvia could follow this guys efforts, if only. Has played some good utility /shut down games. Pass David Rodan Great dancer Sam Blease Has a way to go Sam. Has talent but for his time in our pool hasnt set world on fire. Bordering on fail James Strauss Has a lot to learn, will he ? Not a pass, not a fail...not anything really. Pull your finger out James Colin Garland probably our best and most consistent defender. Not world class but shines amongst our lot. Definite pass Cameron Pedersen Might take lessons off of Rodan and find a real purpose in life. Being on our list is a waste of time, fail Josh Tynan Great endeavor, and efforts. Not quite there in the ability dept but worth persevering with, ftm. Tom McDonald Tom, Tom, Tom; One step forwards 3 back. Pretty well describes your kicking ability , which practically doesnt exit.. In a way the new Rivers. Does a lot of good, followed by some massively poor executions and effectively detracts from teams progress. Needs to learn some footy fundamentals. He isnt alone. That astounds me Daniel Nicholson I like his upside , I curse his sloppiness. Might improve, hope so Tom Gillies Someone remind me why he's on the list Joel MacDonald Has faded to grey. Fail James Sellar An in and out bit part player. Not really of great value , but could be. We have so many of his ilk currently on our list. Because he hasnt beenable to step up and cement a place in a very average team he must also have earnt a fail Jack Grimes great player, but not really a game day Captain, though would be the one to retain if you had to choose. Plays a bit too loose at times and seems weighted down by responsibilities. Good on him for trying. Let him just be a good player, demote him and set him free. Cant question his dedication. Get beter mate. Pass Michael Evans A work in progress. Some good , some bad. The bad ought to iron out with more experience. Qualified pass Dom Barry who the f knows..Way too early. Watch this space Dean Kent Someone who can play footy, how bloody novel. How did he sneak in !! lol PASS Luke Tapscott Hmm. If he can lose the assassin nature of his play and just be a hard at it , toast and jam , no nonsense player he may yet evolve into something quite interesting. Jury out on Luke Aaron Davey Take up dancing, see Rodan. Footy is over Im sorry Aaron Max Gawn hasnt really had enough exposure to really suggest what he may or may not be. Some interesting efforts to this point.. Id like to see more of Maxy. He just might be something Jeremy Howe Jeremy is an amazing talent who needs to develop his footy nouse. We know what he can do in the air but its on the ground he needs to develop. Get this right and we have a winner . PASS Neville Jetta Not 100% sure what he brings to the plate. He may not have the ticker for AFL level footy. Mark Jamar was AA, isnt now. Still for mine is a better ruck and footballer than Spencer. . On a good day hes great. Not a lot of good days . Just a pass Troy Davis Troy who Jake Spencer He ought to be a lot better. He wins a lot of taps to no advantage. For a big boy gets bumber very easily off his perch.. Ho-hm Rory Taggert A bit of a goer is Rory. Needs more games under belt before we'll know whether he will really blossom. Rohan Bail A great winger in a team that doesnt play with the need of one. He shines , he fades. Maybe the gigs up for Rohan. Matt Jones See Matt, see Matt play...because he can and can well. Matt is rare on our team, hes a real fair dinkum footy player...clone him !! PASS Dean Terlich Interesting to date. Shows something. Watch this space Jack Fitzpatrick We dont really know yet., who knows. edit ( forgot ) Couch, Magner. Well it cant be that hard to break into our 22 if any good.. They cant, enough said Stark , Clisby...too early to call well there you have it. Told you you probably wouldnt like it or agree We are a very average/medicore team. We are this way because we seem to have a lot of blokes with some form of talent but we have very few really good FOOTBALLERS !! A few a starting to emerge but how high will they go ..or indeed last. Clark being an abject example. Some may consider my views terribly simplistic and/or heavy handed. My answer : In all my years of following this game it has made me quite savvy to the appreciation of being able to spot blokes who CAN play...and those that are imposters.. I have no time for the latter. Not all decent players are super talented but a fair dinkum player brings something to the jumper..

His past three games have been by far the best I've seen him play.

That's exactly what he's saying, keep Trengove as co-captain and elevate Jones to a co-captain.

73 pages mostly of crap posted by people who have no idea what goes on inside the club and just follow the sheep trail of the media, no facts to support their rants but still it goes on and on, he's something novel just support the club and let them deal with it.

You two can be as dismissive as you want but the bulk of our improvement will come from those listed. There is no Superhero out there to wait for. Gradual improvement by many of the players we have on the list is how we will improve.

Thoughtful and good post. To answer some of the questions you raise I'd say that the main thrust of my post was to say that you can't look at things in isolation. One "good" point doesn't negate the whole of the body of evidence that, in my view, stands against the achievements (of lack thereof) of this FD. I think that over the journey I've highlighted a range of things that have worried me about this coach pretty much from day one. I was on a hiding to nothing then and believe me, I wanted to believe. But his treatment of Davey and Watts early was awful, his appointment of the two captains was awful, his scorched earth approach and disenfranchising of the older players was awful and his handling of the Misfud affair was awful (these are my opinions). But they did not mean he couldn't coach, they just meant he had some issues with handling situations and people that I thought was poor. After two preseasons and 28 games his results have been just terrible. He has reduced us to two years behind North and the equal of GWS. We lose games by 5 goals on the road to a team beaten by about 120 points on either side of playing us and he deems that performance good. We lose to Carlton who in the end were playing injury free circle work and demeaned us by kicking torpedo's for goal after the siren and we see positives. Heavens, how far have we fallen. A win against GCS on Sunday will mean nothing IMO. It won't change where we are - 18 months has established that and one win won't change it. I've seen enough but I was further down the road a lot earlier than others. I happened to be right and I take no pleasure in that. So I think this Club would be best served by changing coach and I think that should happen in the most dignified way possible. I think Neeld knows in his heart he's finished at Melbourne and his performance now is for his next employer, not us. That's what I think. Should we thrash GCS and then have wins against creditable teams shortly after I'll have egg all over my face but as I've said before the value bet says that won't happen and I don't want to gamble it will as the damage that has been done and will continue to be done is too great. We need a change.

That flu must be a real doozy, BB59. In order to be spared your wrath, I promise I will read the OP later tonight.

Are you saying Carlton hadn't already sounded out Malthouse. i love they way you dress up your statements as facts. You still won't tell us how you know the players haven't bought in. The team has taken a step backward because we have introduced a wave of new young players and we are instilling a new game plan.I maintain that we are steadily improving. I thought there were numerous good signs against carlton although I'm as disappointed as you at the result and the seeming inevitability of it. You add Dawes, Clark, Watts, Hogan and some decent midfield draftees, coax a gun mid from elsewhere, Toumpas and another season and preseason and I'd expect substantial improvement.from this list. A list that by then would be heavily loaded with Neeld selections, trained to play his way.with an AFL standard of fitness.

Where do you buy those strong goggles TD?

That would leave us with only one ruckman - Gawn. Toumpas is not ready and it would be silly to bring him back - I would give him at least a month at Casey to adapt to the pace of VFL and build confidence.

Pity we don't all give Neeld the same opportunity based on a decent body of evidence. He is coming from the very lowest level at a train wreck of a club, he requires time to turn it round, as would anyone.

It's sad, but I feel the captaincy is stopping us from dropping him. From what I've seen this year, he's not best 22. Whether it's an injury, external pressure, something mental, or just poor form right now, I feel he's only playing because he's captain. He should have been dropped by now.

I'll assume Watts and Jamar are still unavailable: Bail has been one of our best this year. I thought he was poor yesterday, but one of the papers claimed he did a good job tagging McLean. Even if the paper is wrong and I'm right, he still doesn't deserve to be dropped. And unless Trengove is injured, I can't see Neeld dropping one co-captain when the other is out injured. Finally, Tom McDonald should play. The best place for him to continue to develop is playing seniors footy. And I'm going to stick up for him and say he hasn't been playing as badly as many on this site claim. Out: Grimes, Nicholson In: Jetta, Dawes

Both

For six or seven years of continued on field failure, we should get a priority pick. Then, three years down the line some idiot will claim Neeld experimented with the team and we'll end up copping a fine for employing a bootstudder who looked sideways.

Taggert hasn't been in Casey's best once yet. Form is what should be rewarded, and I hope Taggert makes it, but he just doesn't warrant it.

Watch about 5 minutes before that goal in the last. when he spills a low chest mark, gets up walks and bangs his hands together in frustration. His opponent got up, was running straight away got a handball receive (at which point Col started chasing some 10m behind) and had a comfortable clearance. A disgusting effort to say the least. He was average yesterday, after a good few weeks but efforts such as the one highlighted sum Col up and is why he will never reach his potential and should never be in the leadership group.

average games 47 to 94 tells a big story about today. Evans, Gawn, MJones, Viney, Kent and Terlich have played just 37 games between them. Think of the players not out there today that will/might be part of the side in the future: Jamar, Clark, Dawes, Watts, Grimes, Blease, Fitzpatrick, Toumpas, Hogan and Barry In other words what we saw today is far from a complete picture of where the side is heading By my count we have played 9 decent quarters in the last 4 weeks Obviously we need to get this number up to 16 and we will be highly competitive I'm not sure if it a mental thing or a physical thing, but every week we come undone due to being dominated for a couple of 10-15 minute periods Tommy Mac wtf has happened to him, he was awful today again. Howe is being wasted, we need to find a way to get his talent into the game Sylvia and Jones did some genuinely elite things today I like the efforts of both Spencer and Gawn Tapscott, MJones, Strauss, Nicholson, Strauss, Bail, Evans this group of players are starting to show something, they all have a long way to go Frawley and Garland are looking better

I don't have the stats for the centre square clearances, but overall, we lost the clearances 38-36. Against a very talented midfield i wouldn't say that is being slaughtered, in fact, i think it was probably our best effort of the year in that regard.

Woah woah, lets not go crazy. Tommy Mac can at least defend, and has runs on the board. Please let us never compare him, or anyone who has ever played a good game in red & blue, to that weird bearded man whos existence at our club confuses and enrages me. McDonald is having a stinker of a season, but he can play, and his kicking is passable, his confidence just seems to be well down.

We made 5 changes today and played a team with twice as many games average experience We were without our Clark, Dawes and Watts. We have Trengove unable to run, What is wrong I do not know Grimes goes off in the first quarter We played the 2 least experienced ruckman in the league For all that we chased, harassed, fought, put our heads over the ball and didn't take a backward step. You take that effort and intensity, add 25 games experience, 2 first class mids (plus Toumpas), Clark, Dawes and Watts(no a huge help but a help non the less) and things will start to turn around. We are nowhere near as far away as people think. ,

How can anyone really be pleased with Sylvia? He butchered the ball. Didn't get a kick up forward then went loose in defence and hardly starred. And please Spencer? What a shambles of a football. He provides nothing of use. The one time he wins a clear hit out he puts it straight down Garletts throat leading to a Murphy goal. He could be better than Jamar at centre bounces but is horribly out matched by anyone around the ground. I'd never play him again it devalues the jumper for someone to show such little aggression or spirit. A few chases for the sake of it but really whats the good.

Our style of game was much more in line with what Neeld has talking about. We tried to move the ball quickly, we made it awkward for Carlton and we even had periods of dominance (albeit we couldn't put the score on the board when we did). We played a style that is well suited to a big, tall forward line. We moved the ball quickly and gave the forwards plenty of opportunity to win the ball in the air. The only problem is that our forward line wasn't playing and we kicked it to ruckmen or midgets. But it was really good to see the style starting to come through because we haven't been able to implement it very well so far. That style will start yielding different results when our forward line consists of Clark, Dawes and Hogan. I thought that our intent to run defensively and disrupt play was good. We were down by 30 points halfway through the opening quarter, but had the better of the play for the first 10 minutes. I think the scoreboard looked a lot worse than the performance. If you compare that to the first 2 weeks then it's night and day. We still have a lack of run through the midfield, and it's often the younger players that contribute to this. Viney doesn't yet have the tank to do all the running he needs to do. He'll be great, but it's players like him that are hurting us. McKenzie unfortunately struggles with the quicker style of game. I thought that our work in the stoppages was generally pretty good against a very good midfield, and a lot of that had to do with the defensive work of our midfielders and Spencer (who was good today). So, overall, disappointing to lose but I thought it looked like a (fairly healthy) step forward overall.

What annoys me at the moment is that Melbourne players (try to) kick to where the player is, not where he will be. They just it more difficult for themselves trying to thread needles constantly. The fact that they don't work into space for each other doesn't help either.