On 25/09/2022 at 01:25, xman97 said:

I'm sure most of you know, but going by a few comments, there's a few people on here that don't know how a salary dump works with trade value. These pick numbers are what I think, and are obviously up for debate, but the example of how salary dumps work is this.

Lets say the true value both clubs see Grundy is a Pick 21. (This is disregarding his salary, or any salary dump. This is just based on his age and ability etc).

IF Collingwood are paying $300k per year, it would mean that Pick 21 slides down to about 16.

IF Collingwood don't pay any of his salary, That Pick 21 slides up to about 35.

Lets say a team like North that have plenty of salary cap space. They would do the reverse on what we would be doing and paying all of Grundy's salary, which would mean Collingwood get a worse pick. Lets say Pick 35. 

Think it also depends of pies need to move Grundy on in order to facilitate any other trades or signings like degoey and Mcstay, they are in a spot if one can’t happen without the other. In which case Dees can offer effectively nothing a swap of 2nd round picks perhaps

This makes sense, in terms of no announcement of his intention. He’s forcing them to say they traded him - because that’s the truth

I found it interesting McStay nominated Collingwood before they announced anything about Grundy. Assuming De Goey stays I couldn’t understand how they possibly have the cap space to bring in McStay. This explains it.

It’s a done deal, but he’s not going to do their dirty work. Fair play.

  On 25/09/2022 at 01:25, xman97 said:

I'm sure most of you know, but going by a few comments, there's a few people on here that don't know how a salary dump works with trade value. These pick numbers are what I think, and are obviously up for debate, but the example of how salary dumps work is this.

Lets say the true value both clubs see Grundy is a Pick 21. (This is disregarding his salary, or any salary dump. This is just based on his age and ability etc).

IF Collingwood are paying $300k per year, it would mean that Pick 21 slides down to about 16.

IF Collingwood don't pay any of his salary, That Pick 21 slides up to about 35.

Lets say a team like North that have plenty of salary cap space. They would do the reverse on what we would be doing and paying all of Grundy's salary, which would mean Collingwood get a worse pick. Lets say Pick 35. 

You’ve missed the other key starting element to his value which is what would we pay if he was out of contract (going to exclude free agent).

If Grundy was out of contract I’d still only want him for 600k for 3-4 years.

I’d give pick 25 for that (if I really wanted him). 

The 5th year of the contract devalues him down a few picks. Any amount more than 600k that the pies don’t want to pay him devalues him more.

I doubt the Pies are going to pay him any more than they have to for the deal to be done. They’ve got other things to spend on.  So I can’t see them pay so much that his value increases.

  On 25/09/2022 at 09:02, DeeSpencer said:

You’ve missed the other key starting element to his value which is what would we pay if he was out of contract (going to exclude free agent).

If Grundy was out of contract I’d still only want him for 600k for 3-4 years.

I’d give pick 25 for that (if I really wanted him). 

The 5th year of the contract devalues him down a few picks. Any amount more than 600k that the pies don’t want to pay him devalues him more.

I doubt the Pies are going to pay him any more than they have to for the deal to be done. They’ve got other things to spend on.  So I can’t see them pay so much that his value increases.

Now we're talking

Who pays $1m a year for a non goal kicking ruckman.... Madness

Ruckmen... most injury prone position in the team...who contracts a 29 year old for five years

As an earlier poster pointed out... if we take Grundy at $700k we have around $1.3-1-5M invested in the ruck position. That's a fair % of your overall cap. Does it maximise your win chance as against investing in an elite outside mid or forward.

Make no mistake.. Pies have done the sums and they see it differently.

 

  On 25/09/2022 at 12:44, Diamond_Jim said:

Now we're talking

Who pays $1m a year for a non goal kicking ruckman.... Madness

Ruckmen... most injury prone position in the team...who contracts a 29 year old for five years

As an earlier poster pointed out... if we take Grundy at $700k we have around $1.3-1-5M invested in the ruck position. That's a fair % of your overall cap. Does it maximise your win chance as against investing in an elite outside mid or forward.

Make no mistake.. Pies have done the sums and they see it differently.

 

To be fair, the Pies would have had more than that invested in their ruck position this year (plus a bunch invested in a Dogs midfielder) and had a ripper year, playing in a prelim.

Late 1st for Grundy at $700k/year is probably fair value but we have some leverage because they "must" do it and we "want" to do it. 

FA for McStay closes before the trade period so that puts a little time pressure on too, particularly with Brisbane also wanting an outcome for their Dunkley trade.

We should be able to do a bit better than fair value. The trade may need to get done before the Jackson deal is closed and then it would have to be F1st with something coming back, or best case 32.

Interesting from The Age:

"Collingwood do not have to trade Grundy out to make salary cap room for the players they have targeted this trade period in McStay, Bobby Hill from the Giants and Billy Frampton from Adelaide.

The option of trading Grundy is about creating salary cap space for other potential moves such as Tom Mitchell from Hawthorn.

Mitchell would only be an option if Grundy left Collingwood. Hawthorn would be prepared to pay a significant portion of Mitchell’s salary and would not require a significant draft pick in exchange".

Mitchell is the same age as Grundy and probably on similar dollars with less years on the contract and is a Brownlow medalist, 2 X AA, 3 X BF, MVP but will not attract a significant draft pick.  So why is everyone , in partitcular the media talking a good 1st round pick + for Grundy!!!!!!!!

Edited September 26, 20222 yr by Lucifers Hero

Can I just say....

I started this thread back in July and it was a crazy notion that has now gone 51 pages, and looks likely to happen.  :D

... I still think it's a crazy notion. I'm concerned that will will end up giving up a lot of the value we get from the Jackson trade, but the club needs to bring in at least 2 rucks in this trade/draft period. 

  On 26/09/2022 at 07:53, Lucifers Hero said:

Interesting from The Age:

"Collingwood do not have to trade Grundy out to make salary cap room for the players they have targeted this trade period in McStay, Bobby Hill from the Giants and Billy Frampton from Adelaide.

The option of trading Grundy is about creating salary cap space for other potential moves such as Tom Mitchell from Hawthorn.

Mitchell would only be an option if Grundy left Collingwood. Hawthorn would be prepared to pay a significant portion of Mitchell’s salary and would not require a significant draft pick in exchange".

Mitchell is the same age as Grundy and probably on similar dollars and is a Brownlow medalist, 2 X AA, 3 X BF, MVP but will not attract a significant draft pick.  So why is everyone talking a 1st round pick for Grundy!!!!!!!!

Because Melbourne should get it in the neck to get this done for all parties. 

It is our place.

 

  On 26/09/2022 at 08:25, rpfc said:

Because Melbourne should get it in the neck to get this done for all parties. 

It is our place.

It feels like that sometimes.

Edited September 27, 20222 yr by Lucifers Hero

  On 26/09/2022 at 07:53, Lucifers Hero said:

Mitchell is the same age as Grundy and probably on similar dollars with less years on the contract and is a Brownlow medalist, 2 X AA, 3 X BF, MVP but will not attract a significant draft pick.  So why is everyone , in partitcular the media talking a good 1st round pick + for Grundy!!!!!!

Because small mids whose only trick is to find the ball and move it sideways or backwards are no longer in vogue.
 

Midfielders who in vogue: Oliver and Petracca 😎

If Degoey leaves Collingwood, do they still move Grundy on?

I’d now be disappointed if that was the case and they keep Grundy.

there’s no forwards to go after, Jackson leaves, there would be no point of difference heading into next year.

Grundy could be a massive positive game changer or could be a massive disaster. Worth the punt!

  On 26/09/2022 at 07:53, Lucifers Hero said:

"Collingwood do not have to trade Grundy out to make salary cap room for the players they have targeted this trade period in McStay, Bobby Hill from the Giants and Billy Frampton from Adelaide.

The option of trading Grundy is about creating salary cap space for other potential moves such as Tom Mitchell from Hawthorn.

If it’s true it means he’s more cooked that they’re let on.

But his 1million a season will also hamper them for any/all of the next 5 years too, so it’s hardly like they’ve lost the incentive to move him on.

Grundy is sooooooo Peeezed of with Maggies ... no way known he will be there 2023!

  On 26/09/2022 at 08:46, raikkonen_64 said:

If Degoey leaves Collingwood, do they still move Grundy on?

I’d now be disappointed if that was the case and they keep Grundy.

there’s no forwards to go after, Jackson leaves, there would be no point of difference heading into next year.

Grundy could be a massive positive game changer or could be a massive disaster. Worth the punt!

My Pies tragic mate tells me at the GF that he wants De Goey out and will be shattered if Grundy leaves. He says Dees will be the clear winners if we get Grundy.

Superior tap ruckman to max and far better below his knees. he says he's really a giant on-baller..

And would be a huge point of differenec for the Dees, and Max gets needed help. And allows Max around the ground which he excells at,

Just saying from a Pies fan who knows his team well.

Edited September 26, 20222 yr by Demon17
spelling mistakes

  On 26/09/2022 at 08:46, raikkonen_64 said:

If Degoey leaves Collingwood, do they still move Grundy on?

I’d now be disappointed if that was the case and they keep Grundy.

there’s no forwards to go after, Jackson leaves, there would be no point of difference heading into next year.

Grundy could be a massive positive game changer or could be a massive disaster. Worth the punt!

l think grundy is disgruntled because they have done a 'treloer' on him ... can't see him going back regardless

Edited September 26, 20222 yr by Demons1858

  On 26/09/2022 at 08:48, DeeSpencer said:

If it’s true it means he’s more cooked that they’re let on.

But his 1million a season will also hamper them for any/all of the next 5 years too, so it’s hardly like they’ve lost the incentive to move him on.

if being the operative word here

  On 26/09/2022 at 09:31, Demon17 said:

My Pies tragic mate tells me at the GF that he wants De Goey out and will be shattered if Grundy leaves. He says Dees will be the clear winners if we get Grundy.

Superior tap ruckman to max and far better below his knees. he says he's really a giant on-baller..

And would be a huge point of differenec for the Dees, and Max gets needed help. And allows Max around the ground which he excells at,

Just saying from a Pies fan who knows his team well.

No offence, but "grain of salt" is all I can take from that.

Your mate is thinking of the Grundy under Buckley, where their midfield (including Grundy) racked up huge possessions because they were indirect. Grundy's numbers dropped this year under McCrae before he got injured. His average marks was 2.5, the lowest since his 2nd season. He kicked 2 goals in 6 games. As a comparison, Darcy Cameron averaged 3.8 marks, and kicked 20 goals in 24 games.  Grundy obviously averaged more hitouts because he was the primary ruck, but Cameron shared the ruck duties with Cox, and they lost nothing in hitout numbers without Grundy. 

Give me a Darcy Cameron type as 2nd ruck to Max than Grundy every time.

And note, the Pies have beaten us the past 3 times without Grundy.

  On 26/09/2022 at 10:01, mo64 said:

No offence, but "grain of salt" is all I can take from that.

Your mate is thinking of the Grundy under Buckley, where their midfield (including Grundy) racked up huge possessions because they were indirect. Grundy's numbers dropped this year under McCrae before he got injured. His average marks was 2.5, the lowest since his 2nd season. He kicked 2 goals in 6 games. As a comparison, Darcy Cameron averaged 3.8 marks, and kicked 20 goals in 24 games.  Grundy obviously averaged more hitouts because he was the primary ruck, but Cameron shared the ruck duties with Cox, and they lost nothing in hitout numbers without Grundy. 

Give me a Darcy Cameron type as 2nd ruck to Max than Grundy every time.

And note, the Pies have beaten us the past 3 times without Grundy.

I just don’t think you want Grundy to win a flag and you know that’s what’s going to happen with him in the 22

  On 26/09/2022 at 08:15, Ouch! said:

Can I just say....

I started this thread back in July and it was a crazy notion that has now gone 51 pages, and looks likely to happen.  :D

... I still think it's a crazy notion. I'm concerned that will will end up giving up a lot of the value we get from the Jackson trade, but the club needs to bring in at least 2 rucks in this trade/draft period. 

Great call!

I have it on good authority that DeGoey will sign - he is just delaying the inevitable signing for a few days with some legal posturing so he can misbehave at Q Bar one more time on Thursday night before he has to toe the line

Edited September 26, 20222 yr by The Jackson FIX

  On 26/09/2022 at 09:31, Demon17 said:

My Pies tragic mate tells me at the GF that he wants De Goey out and will be shattered if Grundy leaves. He says Dees will be the clear winners if we get Grundy.

Superior tap ruckman to max and far better below his knees. he says he's really a giant on-baller..

And would be a huge point of differenec for the Dees, and Max gets needed help. And allows Max around the ground which he excells at,

Just saying from a Pies fan who knows his team well.

Grundy pretty much is the older version of LJ, just not as quick or good by foot, but a million times better in the ruck.

Finally, does anyone know, with certainly, the nature of the injury / injuries that killed his 2022, and their current status and prognosis? Surely this is the most important issue right now?  

  On 25/09/2022 at 08:13, Wilson7 said:

There were many that were upset at the Lever Trade, i doubt anyone is now

Jake Lever, NDS 36 (37-Harrison Petty) & 2018 Rd 3 NDS 46, traded by Adelaide for NDS 10 (Lochie O’Brien), 2018 Rd 1 NDS 16 (19-Liam Stocker) & 2018 Rd 4 NDS 73 (67-Robbie Young)

That we managed to pick up Petty in that draft makes it a superb trade in hindsight.