It's about structure and players playing there role to allow it to work.  A good structure will cover perceived dips in form.  This then feeds the "soldier in soldier out" approach to success.

Unfortunately these last few weeks we've lost a bit of this structural shape: 

To date we have not found a player to come in and do Tmac's role. This had consequently made things harder for BBB, forced Fritsch to play a different role, which meant there's also no (soldier in) to play his role. Combine these two factors and suddenly our smalls are struggling to "be offensive" - but that's not due to form, as any replacement will suffer the same fate.

We also suffered a similar problem with May out, as no-one could fill his role (backline general, gorilla keeper, interceptor and long release kicking)  - resulting in weaknesses elsewhere as other defenders tried to cover this.

To keep the structure working, I'd bring in JVR to play Tmac's role in place of Bedford; or conversely Tomilson to replace Bedford and swing Petty into Tmac's role.

Dunstan for Oliver is a no brainer if injuref, though he could also come on for Sparrow.

And that's about it. More than a couple of changed will only further erode the structure?

 

Edited July 8, 20222 yr by Ungarieboy

Oh and I'd give serous thought to playing Gus on the wing with Salem/BoweyHibberd HBF. This would further replicate the successful premiership structure!

 

Edited July 8, 20222 yr by Ungarieboy

 

Outs.
Spargo (been poor for a while)

Bedford (disappointed because he hasn’t taken his chance)

Bowey (masking mistakes and getting physically out bodied) 

and possibly 

Sparrow (beset with slips and fumbles.  Love the kid and setup ANB goal but just not contributing enough) 

ins. 
Weid or JVR -,we need another fwd target.  Fritsch needs to the 3rd tall but is getting physically sucked into big congested marking contests.  Weid more likely but JVR is a talent.  Too early??

Chandler - it’s time to reward him and give him the 2-3 game block   He hasn’t taken prior chances but need to give him the chance again as Bedford lost his opportunities 

Hunt has served his exile. We need some pace across HB to break the line

Laurie to debut.  We need to see what he can do.  Only young but has the skill and smart footy we need.  At least give him the next two weeks.  He deserves a debut.  
 

Hibberd May  Lever

Salem Petty Hunt*

Langdon Viney Brayshaw 

Anb Weid/JVR Laurie*

Pickett Bbb Fritsch

Gawn Trac Clarry

Chandler*! Harmes  Jordon Jackson 

sub. Sparrow 

if Clarry doesn’t withstand multiple painkillers, then Dunstan replaces him.  Otherwise he is picked.  

Edited July 8, 20222 yr by spirit of norm smith
O

10 hours ago, The heart beats true said:

Jackson ‘I’m not sure what I want to do next year. I miss my mum, and it rains sometimes in Victoria’.

Oliver ‘I’ve just signed a 7 year contract and had my thumb smashed. Just cut the bloody thing off and I’ll see you at training in the morning’.

Clayton is what I’ve waited my whole life as a Demon supporter to have. Enormously skilled, tough, determined, and committed to our club.

This x 100

No change unless Ollie doesn't get up and then Dunstan get another chance to prove the saints were wrong. 

1 hour ago, Jaded No More said:

This x 100

Brilliant re: your response above  to a Clayton Oliver/jackson post.

For the life of me, this going home crap is just that - crap.

If not, then don't tell me AFL is a professional sport. It ain't. Just say you're leaving for more money and leave it at that. We will understand.

All of us have moved around the country, sometimes the world, for work. Suck it up afl players or move on and get out of our way.

Clarry's signing just put the Jacko issue in context.

Taylor and Co. will do the best deal and develop the best solution to support the Dees once-in-a-generation squad no matter what. Clarry/Viney/Gawn/Trac (and Angus) are cultural icons and all have done the hard yards of this squad and consequently a priority.  Jacko's a Flag player at 19ish.

Success has come too early to him to appreciate those with more history of the dark days.

Players can either get on board - or not.

4 hours ago, Ungarieboy said:

Dunstan for Oliver is a no brainer if injuref, though he could also come on for Sparrow.

Dunstan is ordinary.  I'd rather see Harmes in the guts.

Dunstan in for Clarrie - he is no Clarrie but that is what we drafted him for, as cover. 
Bedford for Bill Laurie. Hunt vs Bowey - 50/50 be interesting to se which way they go. Fritsch is playing lazy selfish football and may be dropped to send a message but will probably survive. Ben Brown is cooked but there is no obvious replacement. 

 

 

13 hours ago, Lord Nev said:

Makes sense, it's not exactly what I think, but can 100% understand your reasoning there.

Just feel like we need to change something up with Brown, they've given him more than enough  time now to turn his form around and he hasn't, not even close. I had high hopes after last night's first quarter and then he totally disappeared and i don't agree that we totally changed our game plan at half time and it wasn't his fault  at  all that he did nothing. 0 marks in the second half, and 4 out of his 10 disposals for the game were turnovers. Enough is enough, get him back to VFL to find form because we need him in form at finals time.

Even after last night, Weid still has Brown covered for contested marks this year. That and the tackling and pressure is what Weid can bring that will be a lift from what we've been getting from Brown.

It can't be  one rule for one player and a different one for another. IMO Brrown has been given the extra time he deserves based on his history, but it's time to make a change and get him on track.

I suspect you'll be right and Goody won't drop him, but if so, I'll be watching again to see how that plays out.

A lot of this is unfair or wrong IMO.

For one, he was indeed "even close" to turning his form around on Thursday night, in the first half. As I've said before, one half of footy isn't good enough, but regrettably even a half of good football from Brown is an improvement on his last six weeks. His first half had him covering the ground, clunking contested marks, hitting the scoreboard and bringing the ball to ground. All what we want from him.

We didn't totally change our game in the second half but as we fell further behind, we started to rush our ball movement and our structures fell apart. Which led to us kicking the ball to 2-on-1s against us. Impacted all our forwards, not just Brown, but the longer the game went on the more out of whack our positioning became.

As to stats, according to the AFL's website Brown's season average for contested marks is 1 per game, to Weideman's 1.1 That's one extra contested mark across 10 games. Meanwhile Brown's ahead for marks overall (3.6 to 2.9) and marks inside 50 (1.7 to 1.3). And as to defence, Brown's well behind in tackles per game (0.5 to Weid's 1.5) but ahead in pressure acts (6.2 to 5.9).

None of these numbers are anything to write home about but given Brown's first half was probably the best key forward work we've seen from him or Weideman in months, I think the core premise of your argument falls away, particularly given Weideman's stats do not in any way warrant him taking Brown's spot.

OUT:
Oliver: Take the week, get it right.
Bowey: No shame in a young player taking a week.  Refresh, get the confidence back up.
Bedford: Was exposed by a well drilled, mature team.

IN:
Dunstan: For Oliver if required.  Allows Petracca to play more minutes up forward.
Rivers: For Bowey.  Too good to be out for too long.
Laurie: For Bedford.  Let’s see what he’s got.

Sub: Hunt.

18 minutes ago, titan_uranus said:

A lot of this is unfair or wrong IMO.

For one, he was indeed "even close" to turning his form around on Thursday night, in the first half. As I've said before, one half of footy isn't good enough, but regrettably even a half of good football from Brown is an improvement on his last six weeks. His first half had him covering the ground, clunking contested marks, hitting the scoreboard and bringing the ball to ground. All what we want from him.

We didn't totally change our game in the second half but as we fell further behind, we started to rush our ball movement and our structures fell apart. Which led to us kicking the ball to 2-on-1s against us. Impacted all our forwards, not just Brown, but the longer the game went on the more out of whack our positioning became.

As to stats, according to the AFL's website Brown's season average for contested marks is 1 per game, to Weideman's 1.1 That's one extra contested mark across 10 games. Meanwhile Brown's ahead for marks overall (3.6 to 2.9) and marks inside 50 (1.7 to 1.3). And as to defence, Brown's well behind in tackles per game (0.5 to Weid's 1.5) but ahead in pressure acts (6.2 to 5.9).

None of these numbers are anything to write home about but given Brown's first half was probably the best key forward work we've seen from him or Weideman in months, I think the core premise of your argument falls away, particularly given Weideman's stats do not in any way warrant him taking Brown's spot.

Agree to disagree, which is all fine by me.

One half of footy isn't good enough from Brown, the expectations have become so low now, I find it really strange. That's highlighted by the stats you mentioned - Weid gets crucified here yet Brown is apparently 'turning it around' and is really important purely because he apparently 'brings the ball to ground'. I expect far more than that from him, he's a much better player than that and should be delivering better than what he has so far this year. Staggered we're all happy with 5 marks and 1 lucky goal in a half from Brown, that's the minimum requirement IMO and not even taking into account he did literally nothing the rest of the game. Also, 4 out of his 10 touches were turnovers.

Most of Brown's marks were up the ground - he took 1 mark inside 50, so sorry, but I don't buy into the argument that it was all the mids fault that he didn't take any more marks for the game. That's another let off for an underperforming player.

I've already stated this, but to point it out given you're either being misleading or haven't understood - I didn't say Weid in for Brown. I have JVR coming in for Brown and then Weid to come in for Bedford as I believe we need to have the two talls there.

You're saying there 'one half is an improvement' for Brown's form, why do we just accept that? Very few other players get away with that, Weideman certainly wouldn't. Now I get that they have very different career outputs, but that's why Brown has been giving SO long to turn it around and Weid gets dropped after 1 poor game.

Don't get me wrong, I don't have high expectations for Weid, I don't think he's going to suddenly 'break out', but for me we've reached the crossover stage where Brown's form does not deserve any more chances, JVR has earned a chance, and IMO Weid is a good partner for him at least this week. We'll need Brown in form for finals, he's not finding it at AFL level, let's get him right now before it's too late - and imagine if JVR 'pulls a Bowey' at the same time? All of a sudden we have a firing tall forward combo for the important time of year. That would be sensational.

*Disclaimer - I don't expect Goody will drop Brown, it's just what I reckon could be a good move.

 

Edited July 9, 20222 yr by Lord Nev

Some bloody tough choices to be made and I don't envy the selectors. However, broadly speaking we are lacking the dynamism of last year. For that reason alone, I wouldn't entertain The Weed as there's a confidence sapping vibe about him (it's all about the vibe!!). JVR on the other hand - a bit of a strut that's badly needed. No dropping of the head and he thinks he's pretty good. Bring it on.

32 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

Agree to disagree, which is all fine by me.

One half of footy isn't good enough from Brown, the expectations have become so low now, I find it really strange. That's highlighted by the stats you mentioned - Weid gets crucified here yet Brown is apparently 'turning it around' and is really important purely because he apparently 'brings the ball to ground'. I expect far more than that from him, he's a much better player than that and should be delivering better than what he has so far this year. Staggered we're all happy with 5 marks and 1 lucky goal in a half from Brown, that's the minimum requirement IMO and not even taking into account he did literally nothing the rest of the game. Also, 4 out of his 10 touches were turnovers.

Most of Brown's marks were up the ground - he took 1 mark inside 50, so sorry, but I don't buy into the argument that it was all the mids fault that he didn't take any more marks for the game. That's another let off for an underperforming player.

I've already stated this, but to point it out given you're either being misleading or haven't understood - I didn't say Weid in for Brown. I have JVR coming in for Brown and then Weid to come in for Bedford as I believe we need to have the two talls there.

You're saying there 'one half is an improvement' for Brown's form, why do we just accept that? Very few other players get away with that, Weideman certainly wouldn't. Now I get that they have very different career outputs, but that's why Brown has been giving SO long to turn it around and Weid gets dropped after 1 poor game.

Don't get me wrong, I don't have high expectations for Weid, I don't think he's going to suddenly 'break out', but for me we've reached the crossover stage where Brown's form does not deserve any more chances, JVR has earned a chance, and IMO Weid is a good partner for him at least this week. We'll need Brown in form for finals, he's not finding it at AFL level, let's get him right now before it's too late - and imagine if JVR 'pulls a Bowey' at the same time? All of a sudden we have a firing tall forward combo for the important time of year. That would be sensational.

*Disclaimer - I don't expect Goody will drop Brown, it's just what I reckon could be a good move.

Sorry, I was responding to your post in which you said Weid would be offering more than Brown in those areas, which led me to believe you were comparing the two for the same position.

I agree that Weid is judged unfairly by most on here. I thought he did really well when he was asked to play ruck, particularly vs Adelaide as the first ruck. My view, though, is that Brown offers us more right now than Weid does as a permanent forward, and that contrary to your posts Brown has indeed started to show better form. Brown's starting point is unreasonably low given how poor he's been this year, but reality is what he produced in the first half on Thursday is precisely what we need for a full game. The trend is at least in the right direction.

Bringing the ball to ground is far more important than you're letting on. I'm not suggesting we pick someone who does nothing other than bring the ball to ground but our gameplan relies on us not being outmarked in our forward half, so it's a critical role. Part of the reason Brown's disappointed me this year has been how often he's been outmarked. We lost to Sydney largely because we were repeatedly outmarked by their defenders. And there is significant disappointing with Spargo, ANB, Bedford and Pickett - well it's not easy for them to get involved with the way we move the ball if our taller forwards get outmarked.

With all that said, I'm not necessarily opposed to JVR playing. Bowey's a great example of why we should be thinking about bringing in new blood. But we can't play him on his own and for the reasons I've covered, I think Brown holds his spot over Weideman.

1 minute ago, titan_uranus said:

Sorry, I was responding to your post in which you said Weid would be offering more than Brown in those areas, which led me to believe you were comparing the two for the same position.

Nah all good mate! Can see how that would happen. To be clear, if we just picked one forward to come in it would be JVR over Weid without a second of hesitation. Was more just trying to highlight the minuscule difference in their output compared to the huge difference in their assessments by us fans.

3 minutes ago, titan_uranus said:

I agree that Weid is judged unfairly by most on here. I thought he did really well when he was asked to play ruck, particularly vs Adelaide as the first ruck. My view, though, is that Brown offers us more right now than Weid does as a permanent forward, and that contrary to your posts Brown has indeed started to show better form. Brown's starting point is unreasonably low given how poor he's been this year, but reality is what he produced in the first half on Thursday is precisely what we need for a full game. The trend is at least in the right direction.

Can 100% see what you're saying, I just differ with you I guess in that I'm choosing more to look at the whole game rather than just the first half. I have much higher expectations of Brown than what he produced on Thursday night (and for most weeks previous). I'm not sure 1 half of footy is a trend.

5 minutes ago, titan_uranus said:

Bringing the ball to ground is far more important than you're letting on. I'm not suggesting we pick someone who does nothing other than bring the ball to ground but our gameplan relies on us not being outmarked in our forward half, so it's a critical role. Part of the reason Brown's disappointed me this year has been how often he's been outmarked. We lost to Sydney largely because we were repeatedly outmarked by their defenders. And there is significant disappointing with Spargo, ANB, Bedford and Pickett - well it's not easy for them to get involved with the way we move the ball if our taller forwards get outmarked.

Yep all fair points for sure. Absolutely agree bringing the ball to ground is important within the context of our game plan, but I'm a bit sick of it being the only thing we expect from Brown and the line that gets trotted out as a defence of his poor form. The games I've seen live this year I've been extremely disappointed with our tall forwards, including Gawn when he's there. Prior to going to a few games I was putting all the heat on the mids for bombing it long, but once I went along to games I realized it was at least 50% the forwards fault. The lack of movement, crowding packs, all flying at once is really bad this year and leaves the mids with not many options when breaking forward. That's another part of the reason why I wouldn't mind a change up in there as a circuit breaker.

As far as the mids go, I'm disappointed we seem to be bypassing ANB and Spargo a fair bit when going inside 50, both can be good users going forward, so I think an adjustment there might help too.

11 minutes ago, titan_uranus said:

With all that said, I'm not necessarily opposed to JVR playing. Bowey's a great example of why we should be thinking about bringing in new blood. But we can't play him on his own and for the reasons I've covered, I think Brown holds his spot over Weideman.

I think Goody will keep Brown in, and have a feeling we might bring in another tall to help him. I'm with you, if he was to bring in 1 tall I really hope it's JVR. Reminds me a lot of Petty tbh, just has that bit of mongrel about him, a lot to like.

 

5 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

Nah all good mate! Can see how that would happen. To be clear, if we just picked one forward to come in it would be JVR over Weid without a second of hesitation. Was more just trying to highlight the minuscule difference in their output compared to the huge difference in their assessments by us fans.

Can 100% see what you're saying, I just differ with you I guess in that I'm choosing more to look at the whole game rather than just the first half. I have much higher expectations of Brown than what he produced on Thursday night (and for most weeks previous). I'm not sure 1 half of footy is a trend.

Yep all fair points for sure. Absolutely agree bringing the ball to ground is important within the context of our game plan, but I'm a bit sick of it being the only thing we expect from Brown and the line that gets trotted out as a defence of his poor form. The games I've seen live this year I've been extremely disappointed with our tall forwards, including Gawn when he's there. Prior to going to a few games I was putting all the heat on the mids for bombing it long, but once I went along to games I realized it was at least 50% the forwards fault. The lack of movement, crowding packs, all flying at once is really bad this year and leaves the mids with not many options when breaking forward. That's another part of the reason why I wouldn't mind a change up in there as a circuit breaker.

As far as the mids go, I'm disappointed we seem to be bypassing ANB and Spargo a fair bit when going inside 50, both can be good users going forward, so I think an adjustment there might help too.

I think Goody will keep Brown in, and have a feeling we might bring in another tall to help him. I'm with you, if he was to bring in 1 tall I really hope it's JVR. Reminds me a lot of Petty tbh, just has that bit of mongrel about him, a lot to like.

 

Good to see respectful conversations can happen on DL.

I had the pleasure of attending the game on Thursday night down at Geelong. I sat amongst the Geelong crowd in the Brownlow Stand.  I had a group of guys sitting next to me who had flown over from WA to watch the game. One guy was a Freo supporter but was wearing a Dees cap and barracking for Melbourne as we are his second favourite team. Anyway...now for the changes: 

Out: Clarry (inj), Salem, Bowey, Spargo, Fritsch, Bedford and BBB (all omitted)

In: Dunstan, Hunt, Rivers, Laurie, Weideman, van Rooyen and Brown

Edited July 9, 20222 yr by Star of the 80s

1 hour ago, TeamPlayedFine39 said:

OUT:
Oliver: Take the week, get it right.
Bowey: No shame in a young player taking a week.  Refresh, get the confidence back up.
Bedford: Was exposed by a well drilled, mature team.

IN:
Dunstan: For Oliver if required.  Allows Petracca to play more minutes up forward.
Rivers: For Bowey.  Too good to be out for too long.
Laurie: For Bedford.  Let’s see what he’s got.

Sub: Hunt.

On last nights vfl game, no chance Rivers gets picked before the dominant Hunt 

5 minutes ago, Star of the 80s said:

I had the pleasure of attending the game on Thursday night down at Geelong. I sat amongst the Geelong crowd in the Brownlow Stand.  I had a group of guys sitting next to me who had flown over from WA to watch the game. One guy was a Freo supporter but was wearing a Dees cap and barracking for Melbourne as we are his second favourite team. Anyway...now for the changes: 

Out: Clarry (inj), Salem, Bowey, Spargo, Fritsch, Bedford and BBB (all omitted)

In: Dunstan, Hunt, Rivers, Laurie, Weideman, van Rooyen and Brown

There is no way all those players are going to be omitted. 2 or 3 changes only depending on Oliver's thumb.

I agree Goody is loathe to make more than 2-3 changes at a time But I would dearly love to see 3-5 changes. I guess the coaches expect the youngsters to actually knock the door down before they get a run, Hunt deserves another run as I agree he has done his time in exile.!!!

Out: Safe, slow wide ball movement

In: Daring, sharp, central ball movement.

 

JVR for Bedford, maybe Hunt in for Jordan out as personally feel his decision making is very slow, possibly a bit harsh but felt against Cats it really stood out(7-8 other players also had poor games against Cats) Move Gus back to wing and Hunt down back.

Clarke probably plays as he is tough! If not Dunstan in.

Dunstan in for Clarrie if required.

Rivers for Bowey and Chandler for Beford/Spargo.

JVR looks the goods.

Given we have no KPF in form why not give JVR a run.  Give him a taste of senior action and if he doesn't have an impact he can go back to Casey to continue his development. I don't think we've got that much to lose?

9 hours ago, picket fence said:

Weideman has had plenty of chances and is not the answer. J V R IS the future and his time is now. PLAY him this week

I think he plays as the third tall. Have BBB and Gawn /LJ as 1 and 2 and use JVR as the roaming forward in place of Bedford. 
 

The smaller forward line exp has failed. 
 

Relying on Weid as depth was also a colossal overestimation. Cannot allow that to continue.