Loads and Fatigue

[Grr-owl 1,219]

Keep hearing talk of Burgo loading up the players prior to finals, and we’re looking fatigued out there. At which round does the loading cease? In other words, when can we expect the boys to get their zip back?

Edited July 24, 2021 by Grr-owl
Fat finfers

[spirit of norm smith 16,450]

Good call. I would have liked to see better rotation.   
McDonald looked tired.  Jackson has totally lost energy.  Jordon looking exhausted.  
Needed to get Sparrow in.  He’s got splinters this year which is crap coaching.  Deserved better and tonight showed we need to freshen up.  Expect Jordon and LJ to be out “managed” this week. 

[Age 485]

Loading happened around the bye weekend, we should be fully up and running now. Think instead of loading up it just finished us off!

[dl4e 5,851]

What about rotating players more often than squeezing the same side in every week. Take a look at the dogs. They rotate consistantly and have a plathora of ready made players easily able to slip in to their side. 

[olisik 4,060]

When Burgo worked at Port they always burnt out before season end after having a fine start.

Seems the fellas enter season in peak condition and as the other clubs catch up we start to slow down

[Swooper1987 3,322]

First I heard about loads was back in the late 90's when Neil Craig was the fitness guy for Malcolm Blight at the Crows.  It seemed to work for them.  They'd have an average finish to the season and then blitz finals.

[DubDee 25,854]

Bring back Misson! 

[Little Goffy 14,530]

On the one hand, I agree with the concern. On the other hand, our losses have mostly been the product of dumb kicking and while fatigue can make you  a bit fuzzy there is a limit.

[The heart beats true 18,123]

52 minutes ago, dl4e said:

What about rotating players more often than squeezing the same side in every week. Take a look at the dogs. They rotate consistantly and have a plathora of ready made players easily able to slip in to their side. 

We are a very different team. Whether people want to admit it or not we play a very defensive focused team game - hence consistency is the key.

The dogs play a more handball, speed based game, and it’s very reliant on the quality of their midfield. Their bottom 8 players are very touch and go, but their best player is the best going around. If you watch them consistently you’ll see he (Bont) gets them over the line a lot. He’s a gun.

Our bottom 8 players are no better, but are asked to do more for the team structure.

Edited July 24, 2021 by The heart beats true

[dazzledavey36 54,889]

52 minutes ago, dl4e said:

What about rotating players more often than squeezing the same side in every week. Take a look at the dogs. They rotate consistantly and have a plathora of ready made players easily able to slip in to their side. 

This

[Webber 10,465]

8 hours ago, Grr-owl said:

Keep hearing talk of Burgo loading up the players prior to finals

On Demonland. It’s starting to be used a lot to explain, dare I say excuse our late season form tumble. For every team looking finals likely, season load management would be very similar. Otherwise, it’s a phantom. Our form is not fitness and fatigue based, it’s a slump in pressure, execution, one-percenters, and team-centric football. Yes, the young guns are fading, because they’re young, but they’re not being rested because we have illusionary depth and no VFL to create form pressure. It shouldn’t be forgotten that we currently have the least injured list in the AFL, which should be an ENORMOUS advantage. Our form is making a lie of that fact. I keep hearing Simon Goodwin talk about internal belief remaining strong during this down-turn, but we all know it looks a country mile away from early season. It can turn of course, and quickly, but at the moment, our trajectory is southwards, and it’s got nothing to do with loading.

[Lucifers Hero 39,758]

10 hours ago, Grr-owl said:

Keep hearing talk of Burgo loading up the players prior to finals, and we’re looking fatigued out there. At which round does the loading cease? In other words, when can we expect the boys to get their zip back?

Where do you keep hearing this?

Max said they loaded up during the bye but there has been nothing other than DL conjecture to support that loading has continued.

I think the 'looking slow' has as much to do with decision making and confidence as it does to 'fatigue'.  Our ball movement just isn't as sharp as it was earlier in the year.

There are many reasons why players look fatigued: injury, soreness, youth, lost confidence leading to slow reaction times, opp tactics to interfere with ball movement, a long season etc etc.

Having said that, I agree with posters saying 'managing' players, particularly those that are young, sore or 'tired' should have happened in recent games.  By 'managing' I mean rested from games not just reduced game time.

Whatever, the reason for our ball movement going off, lets hope we get our zip back very soon.

Edited July 24, 2021 by Lucifer's Hero

[BW511 2,668]

I am subscribing to the training load theory, we are in a definite slump form wise, but our blokes all look like they can barely break into a canter. 

The younger guys should have been in a constant 4-6 week rotation in my view. Use their youthful exuberance for impact.

Rivers, Jacko, Jordon and Kossie look absolutely spent, while Sparrow sits and watches on each week. 

We also employ a very taxing game plan. 

 

[Lucifers Hero 39,758]

2 hours ago, Webber said:

On Demonland. It’s starting to be used a lot to explain, dare I say excuse our late season form tumble. For every team looking finals likely, season load management would be very similar. Otherwise, it’s a phantom. Our form is not fitness and fatigue based, it’s a slump in pressure, execution, one-percenters, and team-centric football. Yes, the young guns are fading, because they’re young, but they’re not being rested because we have illusionary depth and no VFL to create form pressure. It shouldn’t be forgotten that we currently have the least injured list in the AFL, which should be an ENORMOUS advantage. Our form is making a lie of that fact. I keep hearing Simon Goodwin talk about internal belief remaining strong during this down-turn, but we all know it looks a country mile away from early season. It can turn of course, and quickly, but at the moment, our trajectory is southwards, and it’s got nothing to do with loading.

An interesting thought.

Is that because we haven't given the non 22+sub players chances at AFL to provide the depth or we just don't have the talent?  We've had chances to do the former via the medi sub or some judicious experimenting/resting here and there, so interested in your thoughts.

[Webber 10,465]

8 minutes ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

An interesting thought.

Is that because we haven't given the non 22+sub players chances at AFL to provide the depth or we just don't have the talent?  We've had chances to do the former via the medi sub or some judicious experimenting/resting here and there, so interested in your thoughts.

I don’t think we have the exposed talent yet. People keep talking about Bowey for example. He’s played only a handful of games against men at all, and is seen as a current option. The next few years, sure, but now?! My worry is that if you think about any of our ‘essential’ players being injured/unavailable, what’s the likely replacement/consequence?  That would be Gawn, Oliver, Petracca, May, Lever, Petty, Fritsch (yes, our best forward by some margin, despite the inexplicable lack of understanding of that by many on here), Tmac, Salem. We don’t have anyone outside the current 22 who wouldn’t be a serious downgrade on our game-to-game reliance on those players. The first five mentioned are disproportionately carrying us this year. Shuffling would be necessary of course, and can bring some players on to new levels, but I suspect we’re two lost essential players from an irretrievable position, 1 if it’s any of the first 3. I look through the other ‘contenders’, and who they couldn’t afford to lose, based on their game plan and full 22 contribution, and don’t see any of them having a list as fragile as ours.

[Lucifers Hero 39,758]

16 minutes ago, Webber said:

I don’t think we have the exposed talent yet. People keep talking about Bowey for example. He’s played only a handful of games against men at all, and is seen as a current option. The next few years, sure, but now?! My worry is that if you think about any of our ‘essential’ players being injured/unavailable, what’s the likely replacement/consequence?  That would be Gawn, Oliver, Petracca, May, Lever, Petty, Fritsch (yes, our best forward by some margin, despite the inexplicable lack of understanding of that by many on here), Tmac, Salem. We don’t have anyone outside the current 22 who wouldn’t be a serious downgrade on our game-to-game reliance on those players. The first five mentioned are disproportionately carrying us this year. Shuffling would be necessary of course, and can bring some players on to new levels, but I suspect we’re two lost essential players from an irretrievable position, 1 if it’s any of the first 3. I look through the other ‘contenders’, and who they couldn’t afford to lose, based on their game plan and full 22 contribution, and don’t see any of them having a list as fragile as ours.

Thanks for elaborating. Share your concern about loss of a key player.

Ch 7 put up a chart last night that compared the depth of the two teams.  I think we had 6 players that had at least 1 AFL game this year.  The bulldogs had about a dozen.  

It backs up your point  on lack of exposed talent.   Its a bit scary how thin we are.  Very fit list with limited depth.

[Pirlo 813]

Doesn't take a genius to see that Jordon, Rivers, Jackson are exhausted and are being absolutely wasted playing at 50%.

Meanwhile Sparrow is sub every week and can't get a look in above JJ for a week or two.

[Guest]

Don’t buy the training load argument. In short, it is a load.

Shouldn’t we be looking stronger now if that were so? It just seems we are getting more and more sluggish.

[Skuit 10,031]

Motivation is the main factor. We made the finals before the bye. I'm bored. The players are bored. The last two rounds have been just about the least interest I've ever had in footy. I don't care where we finish on the ladder. Can we just start the finals already? 

[Engorged Onion 10,215]

My take.

"There is a vibe though that we are running on the spot.

I'd argue it s clearly about training and game day loads, and as suggested, all teams in finals contention will be doing it. 

The difficulty for us and other Victorian teams is the lack of second tier competition, so where do we get to put those players who still need to have match fitness, but at a reduced level. This dilemma, impacts performance for obvious reasons. 

But with an eye on 4-5 weeks away - what is a Football department to do.  Do you make every post a winner until september, with the eventuality that you haven't given your team the best opportunity FOR september. Or do you mitigate as much as possible, and hope the talents and systems will get you a top 4 slot, so that you're cherry ripe for september, but you may be in a position where you don't have a double chance.

The 22 rounds are just the hors d'oeuvre's, and I would prefer my team to be pretty [censored] hungry for the main course in September,  when fitness on dry (er) tracks will be at a premium.

 

ps... what @Skuitsaid.

Edited July 25, 2021 by Engorged Onion

[Demonstone 22,506]

14 hours ago, DubDee said:

Bring back Misson! 

Only if we bring back Bohdan as his assistant.

[Engorged Onion 10,215]

This could be useful to wrap your head around, whilst debating the probability of whether training loads matter, if you're a dubious type of person, who thinks the performances are disgusting and pathetic and think Goodwin should be sacked, and you'd much prefer the relief of knowing your not going to make the finals as a supporter.

It's round 18 - here is a neat little graph - now if you're making finals - it's a pretty good template to run off. There wouldn't be too much variation from club to club, because clubs don't do that.

 

 

In relation to this content, and through worrying about people knocking my credentials,  I'll just say, I'm also coming from a place of knowledge of what happens, because I have it from numerous horses mouths who are fed crunchy digits from their employer(s)...

Edited July 25, 2021 by Engorged Onion

[Watson11 2,240]

4 hours ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

An interesting thought.

Is that because we haven't given the non 22+sub players chances at AFL to provide the depth or we just don't have the talent?  We've had chances to do the former via the medi sub or some judicious experimenting/resting here and there, so interested in your thoughts.

Casey flogged Box Hill by 52 points in April, so we should have the talent to to bring in some players to take on half that Box Hill side last week.  

[binman 42,919]

43 minutes ago, Engorged Onion said:

This could be useful to wrap your head around, whilst debating the probability of whether training loads matter, if you're a dubious type of person, who thinks the performances are disgusting and pathetic and think Goodwin should be sacked, and you'd much prefer the relief of knowing your not going to make the finals as a supporter.

It's round 18 - here is a neat little graph - now if you're making finals - it's a pretty good template to run off. There wouldn't be too much variation from club to club, because clubs don't do that.

 

 

In relation to this content, and through worrying about people knocking my credentials,  I'll just say, I'm also coming from a place of knowledge of what happens, because I have it from numerous horses mouths who are fed crunchy digits from their employer(s)...

On that chart we would would be at Max intensity last week. And Max loading round 13-14.

Whilst you are no doubt right about not being much variation between us, burgess is known for pushing that envelope. 

There seems to be a consensus on demonland that we looked fatigued.

My eyes tell me we are.

The numbers for the young players tell me are

For the sake of argument let's say we are fatigued. 

The key question is why are fatigued.

As I have noted before if I apply the Occam's razor principle the answer I get is:

- Long season, taxing game style young team AND

- high training loads.

As I said burgess has form at both port and Liverpool with loading Ayers up. Max said we had been loading. 

Looking at that chart above burgess would only need to be doing and extra couple of weeks than the norm (and maybe a bit more volume and intensity than other teams) for us to be feeling the effects on game day now.

 

 

 

[Engorged Onion 10,215]

Whilst Burgess is known for pushing the envelope, it would be arrogance on his behalf after a quarter of a century in the business to continue a strategy that on evidence hasn’t worked. 
 

Fatigue , wouldn’t be Burgess pushing the envelope on top of a periodisation process - that just ignoring best practice.

We are where we are, because we are where we are on the schedule.