1 hour ago, Bring-Back-Powell said:

A high quality side such as Richmond or Geelong simply would've got the job done had they been sent to Cairns to play two pretty damn average sides in Sydney and Freo, no matter the adversity.

That's what separates the high quality clubs and high quality coaches from our club and our coach.

Yes a coach is responsible for motivation and creating the optimal environment that supports a win. And of course selecting the right players.

But when it is all said and done, once the game starts it is 95%,  maybe more, on the players. And doubts about goody should not obscure the fact that the players selected in those two games failed and let the club and fans down. They have to wear it.

I'd hate to see blame disproportionately sheeted to goody rather than where it should go- the players.

16 minutes ago, binman said:

Yes a coach is responsible for motivation and creating the optimal environment that supports a win. And of course selecting the right players.

But when it is all said and done, once the game starts it is 95%,  maybe more, on the players. And doubts about goody should not obscure the fact that the players selected in those two games failed and let the club and fans down. They have to wear it.

I'd hate to see blame disproportionately sheeted to goody rather than where it should go- the players.

Rightly or wrongly the buck stops at his door binman. Perhaps sadly if the team does play not finals this year he will gone no matter how much the player contributed to that result.

Edited December 31, 20204 yr by old dee

He’s got Yze and Williams to bounce off

1 hour ago, binman said:

I'd hate to see blame disproportionately sheeted to goody rather than where it should go- the players.

Don't you know how it goes, binman?

When we win, it's because the team played well.  When we lose, it's because the coach is no good.

1 hour ago, binman said:

Yes a coach is responsible for motivation and creating the optimal environment that supports a win. And of course selecting the right players.

But when it is all said and done, once the game starts it is 95%,  maybe more, on the players. And doubts about goody should not obscure the fact that the players selected in those two games failed and let the club and fans down. They have to wear it.

I'd hate to see blame disproportionately sheeted to goody rather than where it should go- the players.

The players have never had a game plan under Goodwin, whos been there for 5 years.

We have the cattle, but the coach has been a fail so far.  Maybe he improves next season, maybe not.

We have stars in the midfield and down back and we should be pushing top 4. For those that don’t think this - you’re just trying to make failure more palatable. 

5 hours ago, Bring-Back-Powell said:

A high quality side such as Richmond or Geelong simply would've got the job done had they been sent to Cairns to play two pretty damn average sides in Sydney and Freo, no matter the adversity.

That's what separates the high quality clubs and high quality coaches from our club and our coach.

But they would never be sent there in the circumstances we were. In any case your statement is simply a guess based on no evidence.

4 hours ago, old dee said:

Rightly or wrongly the buck stops at his door binman. Perhaps sadly if the team does play not finals this year he will gone no matter how much the player contributed to that result.

Yep, that's footy.

Interestingly in tbe book I referenced, The Captain Class, walker noted some research a US university had done on the outcome of sacking a coach across mutiple codes and decades (as part of his analysis of the impact of the coach). The data showed that overall sacking a coach got slightly worse results.

33 minutes ago, dworship said:

But they would never be sent there in the circumstances we were. In any case your statement is simply a guess based on no evidence.

An assumption I would have thought dworship - and probably a pretty good one given they were the two grand final teams. 

16 minutes ago, binman said:

... walker noted some research a US university had done on the outcome of sacking a coach across mutiple codes and decades (as part of his analysis of the impact of the coach). The data showed that overall sacking a coach got slightly worse results.

There have been a few of such studies - and not just in team sports either. All with similar outcomes.

3 hours ago, Pickett2Jackson said:

We have the cattle

Another great Demonland myth. (Though most supporters at most clubs think the same thing.)

1 minute ago, bing181 said:

Another great Demonland myth. (Though most supporters at most clubs think the same thing.)

I think we do 'bing'...the list is pretty strong now.

Surely we give top 4 a shake this season & from there anything is possible.

On 12/30/2020 at 1:11 PM, Deemania since 56 said:

It is doubtful that Goodwin will get the team to a GF. However, I have far more confidence that a combination of Williams, Yze and Jordan Lewis could do it in a stride - a unique coaching structure if we are innovatively hungry for a flag, not just a paycheque and a series of apologetic excuses (oops, and a new Jaguar for the elitist mental brick wall).

 

Did I miss an announcement re: Jordan Lewis?

9 hours ago, CYB said:

Did I miss an announcement re: Jordan Lewis?

Nah, just a dream ... I regard his footy nouse and communication very highly.

On 12/31/2020 at 9:36 AM, durango said:

I reviewed the Alister Clarkson Coaching history he was appointed after the 2004 season. Richmond and Hawthorn was granted 2 free hits before the first pick recruiting Roughead, Franklin and Lewis with their first 3 picks. It took him till 2008 to win the premiership.

The players already at the club were Hodge another free hit and Crawford. At the time the club was not expecting to win the 2008 premiership because they believed the side was too young.

Hawthorn won the game 18.7 to Geelongs 11.23.

 

Twelve of those behinds were not shots at goal but Hawthorn carrying the ball over to minimise risk and regain possession I seem to remember. Smart tactically and no longer allowed.

16 hours ago, Pickett2Jackson said:

The players have never had a game plan under Goodwin, whos been there for 5 years.

 

Never had a game plan under Goodwin? Never?

You really must back that up or it goes into the special catalogue of Ridiculous Statements That Make demonland So Addictive.

21 hours ago, DeeSpencer said:

I actually think Goodwin from 16-18 did a heck of a job and should've been regarded as a top 6 coach in the comp at that time. Outside of the round 23 disaster costing us finals in 2017 he got the most out of that list with an innovative and aggressive game plan. Yes it had it's flaws, but most sides do. Geelong this year were dominating the grand final and after the game you look at them and think how the heck did they even get close with that side and that plan.

What i haven't seen mentioned in this thread is the improvement and additions in coaching of other clubs in the period since 16-18. We can add Fagan, Ratten & Hinkley to the list of coaches that have been excelling latelythat weren't in 16-18. Hardwick, Scott at the top of the tree currently. Simpson, Buckley & Beveridge have stagnated, but reached a far higher level than Goodwin. Then you've got a few clubs outside the 8 that seem to be on the right track with coaching and managerial appointments. 

We await this year's results, but it really could be something as a simple as the field moving ahead of a coach that was excelling 2-4 years ago. ?‍♂️

 

Edited December 31, 20204 yr by John Demonic

2 hours ago, John Demonic said:

What i haven't seen mentioned in this thread is the improvement and additions in coaching of other clubs in the period since 16-18. We can add Fagan, Ratten & Hinkley to the list of coaches that have been excelling latelythat weren't in 16-18. Hardwick, Scott at the top of the tree currently. Simpson, Buckley & Beveridge have stagnated, but reached a far higher level than Goodwin. Then you've got a few clubs outside the 8 that seem to be on the right track with coaching and managerial appointments. 

We await this year's results, but it really could be something as a simple as the field moving ahead of a coach that was excelling 2-4 years ago. ?‍♂️

 

Interesting summary! How would you rate Goodwin among these other coaches? If you believe Simpson, Buckley and Beveridge have stagnated but reached a higher level .  i don't think we really have a clear cohesive plan when it comes to a style that supporters can depend or rely upon.  In fact i would say we were closer to a good gameplan at the start of his tenure as coach. Hopefully with Yze and WIlliams added to the group there will be clarity in what we  want our game to look like.  

Something that Simon has persisted with is outnumbers in the backline (We had to stop the easy out the back goals), but it creates this imbalance when we go forward we are constantly outnumbered.  I find this a bit flawed now we have a great backline/system that really works. Should we not be backing ourselves one on one across the field to play within our systems.  It would stop the easy rebounds from attack. We might be able to lock the thing in occasionally if we had even numbers across the field.  In summary, we still need a much less predictable game plan that play to our strengths and don't disadvantage over half the field!

Can we stop being soothsayers of doom. I have been tired of all the negative speak. Personally I have no problem with Simons coaching. 

There is no point in consistently talking down our people who are doing the best they can with the skills available in the playing group.

6 hours ago, pitmaster said:

Never had a game plan under Goodwin? Never?

You really must back that up or it goes into the special catalogue of Ridiculous Statements That Make demonland So Addictive.

Enlighten us to the game plan then.

5 years in and still nothing resembling one.

All in all the narrative generally follows the performance. Very few people see it coming, they use perfect 20/20 hind sight to tell the story of how Hardwick or Clarkson, or whoever, was always a genius. If Goody coaches us to a flag everyone will say how they saw the seeds of brilliance even in the dark times of 2019. If he flops, well that is another story entirely. People are already warming up that narrative.

 As for me, I can see a definite game plan based around winning the ball at the contest and pushing forward aggressively. We had problems with getting spread from the point of contest and we seem to have addressed that now. We were leaking goals due to some poor positioning and an overly aggressive press. We have addressed that too, our back 6 are starting to gel and seem to know where to be. I think May and Lever are a big part of that, they both know how to organise.

Our forward structure and entries have been a big factor in our losses. I don’t think that is news to Goody or the tactical geniuses on DL. A really big part of that has been confidence though. Fritsch couldn’t miss in 2018 from within the 50 meter arc. With his confidence down and pressure on him to be the major goal kicker he could barely put it through from directly in front during 2019 and to a lesser extent in 2020.

 Another factor has been forward half pressure. It seemed like when we eased the press our system didn’t adjust to keep the ball locked in the forward half with reduced numbers. Back to that confidence problem, that played out across the whole field in 2020. Suddenly we were making basic skill errors and turning the ball over way more. I think that was mostly between the ears. This team needs to notch up some wins and get some swagger going. We need to stop worrying about drinking our own bath water and embrace a healthy arrogance, and not give a toss what the media says.

I am one who believes we do have the people do get the job done. I see talent everywhere and with quite a few, we have only seen the tip of the iceberg. Kossie, Jackson and rivers all have a ton of development in them. I’m watching Baker carefully next season, he has had flashes of real brilliance but let’s see. Brown was the piece we absolutely needed, the competition between him, Weid and TMac will be very healthy. I see Jackson as something completely different and I’m really keen to see him develop.

 To say we don’t have a game plan or a recognisable style is just wrong. Sure, it is a work in progress, and sometimes we go to pieces or make a string of basic blunders, but I for one can see what Goody and the coaching group are trying to put together. If they tune it and get results they will be hailed as geniuses, if not well, let’s just wait and see. There is plenty of time to get the knives out and carve into our own when and if that happens.

1 hour ago, Pickett2Jackson said:

Enlighten us to the game plan then.

5 years in and still nothing resembling one.

You're right, I'm sure he just tells them to go out there and crack in ?

On 12/30/2020 at 3:24 PM, old dee said:

My problem with Goodwin is his match day performance. For 3 years now we have seen him out coached during a game. I don't expect this to change. 

YEP!

On 12/30/2020 at 3:24 PM, old dee said:

My problem with Goodwin is his match day performance. For 3 years now we have seen him out coached during a game. I don't expect this to change. 

I shudder when he comes up against clarkson ratten longmire chris scott and now justin longmuir.

9 hours ago, pitmaster said:

Never had a game plan under Goodwin? Never?

You really must back that up or it goes into the special catalogue of Ridiculous Statements That Make demonland So Addictive.

We have. Its just that the plan between mids and forwards isn't workable.