Off-season outlook: Pressure will be on Melbourne and Simon Goodwin

[old dee 23,687]

14 minutes ago, Better days ahead said:

Sorry old dee to be a pedant. The correct biblical quote is "The love of money is the root of all evil"

Your welcome.

Too late that has already been pointed out by ds.

[Demonstone 22,193]

15 minutes ago, old dee said:

Too late that has already been pointed out by ds.

Can I also point out to Bdh that it's "you're" (short for you are) welcome, not "your".   Don't mention it.

[BDA 22,691]

Just now, demonstone said:

Can I also point out to Bdh that it's "you're" (short for you are) welcome, not "your".   Don't mention it.

I've been schooled. Thank you.

[old dee 23,687]

7 minutes ago, demonstone said:

Can I also point out to Bdh that it's "you're" (short for you are) welcome, not "your".   Don't mention it.

Are you a grammar nazi ds?

[Demonstone 22,193]

The English language is a beautiful thing old dee, and beautiful things deserve to be treated properly.  

I'll happily confess to being a pedant but take offence at being termed a "nazi".

[old55 23,317]

4 hours ago, demonstone said:

"The love of money is the root of all evil"  is the whole saying and is actually a Biblical quotation.

 

58 minutes ago, Better days ahead said:

Sorry old dee to be a pedant. The correct biblical quote is "The love of money is the root of all evil"

Your welcome.

And clearly the meaning of the quote is inaccurate.

[bing181 9,191]

22 hours ago, binman said:

In some respects his season reinforced to me how much we have lacked that sort of leadership over the years.  Perhaps I'm being a bit harsh on Jones but could argue you need to go back to neita for that level of leadership.

Most of our woes in a nutshell IMHO.

[old dee 23,687]

25 minutes ago, demonstone said:

The English language is a beautiful thing old dee, and beautiful things deserve to be treated properly.  

I'll happily confess to being a pedant but take offence at being termed a "nazi".

Fair comment. Let’s say the grammar police. I am not the best by a long way. But like you I think we should do our best. Keeping watching me I will no give plenty to laugh about. 

[binman 42,468]

5 hours ago, demonstone said:

"The love of money is the root of all evil"  is the whole saying and is actually a Biblical quotation.

Nah, i'ts money is the root of all evil and it is a quote from from one of the dub/reggae greats:

https://youtu.be/lgrMCxvEQUw

Edited January 5, 2021 by binman

[dworship 3,342]

On 1/4/2021 at 6:02 PM, binman said:

Wowsa?

It goes without saying that developing and implementing game plan is a key responsibility of a senior coach, but I wasn't making a list of the responsibilities of a coach. I was responding to a comment about about our appalling performance in the two games in cairns.

Sure Goody has to bear some responsibility for preparation and poor selection etc but those losses were down to the players, pure and simple. The game plan was barely a factor. In the Freo game the players were simply to too lazy to stop Freo's spread, just as they were against the dogs. Against the Swans, not for the first time they played stupid football in the wet and windy conditions. Is that on Goody?

In both games they were clearly not switched on. Of course Goody plays a role in getting them ready but these guys are professional footballers playing at the elite level. Being ready to play is ultimately their responsibility.  An AFL player expecting the coach to take responsibility for them being ready is amateursville.

And JG, without wanting to open a post Omac argument front, it is just nonsense to suggest Goody has  been slow to make changes to the game plan since 2018. The fundamentals haven't changed (contest out, win the ball at the contest, pressure) but our game plan has changed quite markedly over the 2019 and 2020 seasons. I'm surprised you think otherwise.

In my view the players have really struggled with the evident change in game plan and this was big factor in our poor 2020 season. 

And arguing we have selected the same side for too long equally nonsensical, given it is palpably untrue. 

I mean in 2019 injury made this impossible and i don't think we once had the same team run out. I'm pretty sure we had the most changes of any club in 2019.

This season injury was not an issue and from the get go goody elected to chop and change players, positions, set ups and structures and continued to do so all season (eg selecting Preuss to play as a forward in Cairns). Indeed i was critical of his fluid approach to selection all year and would have loved it if he 'selected the same side' week in, week out and kept players in the consistent positions.   

And to say Goodwin is largely responsible for where we are as a club? Wowsa.  Sure he bears his share of responsibility but largely responsible? Please. By that logic Hardwick is largely responsible for the tiger's success. And Clarkson - for both the success of the hawks and the more recent failure. 

In the book I referenced previously in this thread - the Captain Class - its author, Sam Walker, set out to identify the greatest sports teams of all time and answer the question as to what makes a great team? He devised a formula, then applied it to tens of thousands of teams from different sports leagues all over the world, going back to the 1850s.

He ended up with a list of the 16 greatest teams ever, what he refers to as tier one, and 106 tier two teams who were close. There are two Australian teams in tier one: the 1993 -2000 Women's hockey team and the Collingwood 1927-30 VFL team.

In the book he specifically addresses the role of the coach and the question of how big a factor they are in making a team great. His answer, based on more than decade of research and hundreds of interviews, was not a very big factor at all and certainly not as influential as most would assume. He noted that whilst of course coaches play an important role, the biggest factor in teams success is it players and in particular inspirational leaders.  

In terms of the ability of the coaches for his tier one and tier two teams (so in his considered opinion the 131 greatest sports teams of all time) he had this to say in an interview:

"I never imagined I’d be saying this, but the evidence was remarkably clear. The coaches of these elite teams were all over the map. Some were successful, inspirational, or tactically brilliant, but others were decidedly not. Most had unremarkable records before (and after) they took over these exceptional teams, or had little to no coaching experience. Several teams even changed coaches.

It’s not that coaches are irrelevant – far from it. But even the most revered ones – Vince Lombardi, Alex Ferguson, Bill Belichick and Phil Jackson – achieved their best results in partnership with a captain who didn’t always do what he was told'.

In terms of my comment that once the game starts it is 95%, maybe more, on the players, this quote from Alex Ferguson (soccer's Vince Lombardi) makes my point well:

“As hard as I worked on my own leadership skills, and as much as I tried to influence every aspect of United’s success on the field, at kickoff on match day things moved beyond my control.”

If you go back several years I've posted previously about a program I was involved in, now more than 20yrs ago (I can hear the young'ns groaning already). I haven't engaged directly with you on the matter but your post prompted me to mention it again. As you have quoted; Coaches don't appear to have an overt influence on performance per say. All this talk about  Game Plan and the programs around "Leading Teams" and "Commando Training" are great for showing what can be done but I've never believed it really takes hold mentally and becomes ingrained "behaviors". What I was taught in the program I did was; if you haven't done the mind training then when you let go of the rudder you will go back to the old habits. Clary was a point in case this year, Burgo had said to him "if you're clear, take three quick steps before releasing the ball". I saw this implemented a few times in games to great effect and then gradually saw Clary revert to habit. The follow up techniques to support this change are not being taught.

Most on here would say; well that's a coaching problem. But you don't know what you don't know. Binman you have done some great reading/research/posting on the subject so I'll challenge you to pursue my comments by looking at Coach Nick Saban of Alabama Crimson Tide football team and the record in the 7 or so years before he arrived. Why has he been so successful since? I'll give you a hint, they invested in a program that is more focused on individual performance (and no it doesn't give up team focus). Yes, the same program I did 20yrs ago is still being taught to the new players in 2020. I'll leave you with a snippet from Saben. 

 

[Sir Why You Little 36,907]

4 hours ago, drysdale demon said:

You need to have good info regarding this if your going to spread unsubstantiated rumors around.

Yes i am waiting on this one too. 
I heard a whisper about 2 days ago

We shall see....

[Dr. Gonzo 24,122]

7 hours ago, demonstone said:

"The love of money is the root of all evil"  is the whole saying and is actually a Biblical quotation.

Plot twist! Would've laid down good money they'd blame it on Lucifer

[Lucifers Hero 39,320]

14 hours ago, 58er said:

Surely LH its a combination of most of the factors 

Travel schedule inc from Alice earlier in the week and on the day.

Poor coaching inc. poor selection 

Not UP  for this game 

Our consistent lack of a game plan that can be flexible for windy wet or other conditions or different opponents!

Yes it is.

Yet some posters want to just blame the AFL for imposing a travel schedule on us, and forget that going to Alice was our choice, when assessing the Cairns games. 

[Lucifers Hero 39,320]

11 hours ago, dworship said:

What I was taught in the program I did was; if you haven't done the mind training then when you let go of the rudder you will go back to the old habits. Clarry was a point in case this year, Burgo had said to him "if you're clear, take three quick steps before releasing the ball". I saw this implemented a few times in games to great effect and then gradually saw Clary revert to habit. The follow up techniques to support this change are not being taught.

Apologies for abbreviating your excellent post.  Wanted to focus on the above.

3 to 4 years ago Macca highlighted that under pressure our players revert to old (bad) habits.  So we understood the problem.  But unlike Richmond we haven't given our players the 'mind training' (mindfulness is the current buzz word) or if we have it hasn't been sustained or supported with techniques.  Dusty is the perfect example of how a player well versed in and accepting of 'mind training' can excel. 

Not everyone will become a Dusty but training players minds as well as their bodies and skills would, imv see a marked improvement in our performances.  If nothing else it would reduce/eliminate the quarters in which we go missing. 

A 'mind training' program needs to have full on belief and commitment by the FD and playing group and I don't sense we have that or that it is even a priority. 

Old habits are very hard to undo and I think this is the case for Clarrie.  When he started he was told:  'see ball, get ball' and it becomes a hot potato for him.  The team was told: 'get jumpers to the contest' and it is stacks on the mill and we get murdered on the outside.  It all still sounds very familiar.  So we need re-training of bad playing habits, training the mind in staying focused and dealing with pressure so that players can confidently 'let go of the rudder' and not fall back into old habits.

We so often hear 'it is all above the shoulders' but rhetorically, do we have a program to re-train their minds?

[Lucifers Hero 39,320]

11 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Plot twist! Would've laid down good money they'd blame it on Lucifer

So it was all my fault! ??

[old dee 23,687]

1 hour ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

So it was all my fault! ??

You got it in one LH.

[NeveroddoreveN 1,034]

4 hours ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

Apologies for abbreviating your excellent post.  Wanted to focus on the above.

3 to 4 years ago Macca highlighted that under pressure our players revert to old (bad) habits.  So we understood the problem.  But unlike Richmond we haven't given our players the 'mind training' (mindfulness is the current buzz word) or if we have it hasn't been sustained or supported with techniques.  Dusty is the perfect example of how a player well versed in and accepting of 'mind training' can excel. 

Not everyone will become a Dusty but training players minds as well as their bodies and skills would, imv see a marked improvement in our performances.  If nothing else it would reduce/eliminate the quarters in which we go missing. 

A 'mind training' program needs to have full on belief and commitment by the FD and playing group and I don't sense we have that or that it is even a priority. 

Old habits are very hard to undo and I think this is the case for Clarrie.  When he started he was told:  'see ball, get ball' and it becomes a hot potato for him.  The team was told: 'get jumpers to the contest' and it is stacks on the mill and we get murdered on the outside.  It all still sounds very familiar.  So we need re-training of bad playing habits, training the mind in staying focused and dealing with pressure so that players can confidently 'let go of the rudder' and not fall back into old habits.

We so often hear 'it is all above the shoulders' but rhetorically, do we have a program to re-train their minds?

Great post! I been banging on about the benefits of mindfulness and knowing how great it has been for a club like Richmond who were prior to that perennial underachievers.  It gobsmacks me why you would not try and gain every little possible advantage that you could in an industry where a % difference can mean playing finals or not.  Of all the clubs out there i think we could benefit the most out of it due to our past history.  I expect we will do it in like 10 years time where and when the whole industry will be using it to gain every advantage possible. i really pray we get onto it much sooner.  Most of our issues are "up top!"

[In Harmes Way 7,730]

23 hours ago, demonstone said:

"The love of money is the root of all evil"  is the whole saying and is actually a Biblical quotation.

And in Uncle Bitters case, the love of Shiraz is the evil of all roots

[hardtack 10,506]

19 hours ago, demonstone said:

Can I also point out to Bdh that it's "you're" (short for you are) welcome, not "your".   Don't mention it.

Can I point out that it is Bda, the correct acronym for Better days ahead. You're welcome and don't mention it. ?

[JimmyGadson 3,455]

On 1/5/2021 at 1:57 PM, binman said:

Sam Walker was the founding editor of The Wall Street Journal's sport section and its  global sports editor for a decade, covering elite sport around the world.

For the book he spent over a decade analyzing data and records and interviewed hundreds of people (coaches, players, managers, owners, administrators etc etc) involved in elite sporting teams across the planet, including Collingwood. 

Sure its ones man's opinion but he has done the work to back up that opinion. And it is pretty convincing argument I have to say. 

Don't worry about the essay on why Goodwin is the majority reason of our stagnation.

But can you provide some evidence there are 'many footy experts both in the media and or who work within the AFL who know full well that Goodwin's shortcomings as a coach in a variety of areas are the main contributing factor as to why we are a middle of the road side right now'.

It shouldn't be difficult to do so since apparently there are so many football experts who hold this view. 

 

I just don't see how this theory can be correlated with our current state as a footy side. 

The players aren't ready to perform consistently due to a variety of reasons.

You speak about it in such simple terms. Using your example of the two games that in your view were the reason we didn't play finals last year, your diagnosis is that the players simply didn't 'turn up'..?!

It's far more nuanced.

Just as it was when we consistently played an underdeveloped and underperforming Oscar McDonald for the amount of time we did in our side. These things fall on Goodwin. Selection, gameplan, connection, player positions, gameday strategy, messaging, communication etc etc.

Honestly, use google to find the evidence binman. It's there. And if you didn't hear it, then maybe you don't watch enough football.

People from Ross Lyon to Jason Dunstall and many in between have made comment on how easy we are to play against.

A head coach takes full responsibility for moulding a team over a period of time to play a certain way.

We've been losing in an almost identical manner for three years now under Goodwin, and he has been too slow to make change to the list in general, positional change and change in the way play.

If any Melbourne supporter disagrees with that last sentence, please give me a reason to listen you.

 

 

 

 

 

[Clintosaurus 7,808]

6 hours ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

Yes it is.

Yet some posters want to just blame the AFL for imposing a travel schedule on us, and forget that going to Alice was our choice, when assessing the Cairns games. 

But they could have let us fly to Cairns a day or two before the game, instead of making it on the day. 

[Rigatoni Rigoni 67]

I dunno, what were we, a game off last year? Pressure should be on, and that's ok.

I think if we were almost any other club you'd welcome it, but we all have (and I'm just generalising here, could just be me) Stockholm syndrome from this club that you expect them go to water when the heat is applied. That's why everyone was in f*^&**g raptures in 2018 finals series, against Geelong and Hawthorn imo, a real pressure valve release of actually not only meeting expectation but surpassing it, at least before we got our heads kicked in in WA.

Pressure up? Good. Personally i think this year we will surprise a few. And if i'm wrong and they move on Goodwin from failure (something i could agree or disagree with depending on the degree of failure) at least we have a core group of players, and it's not back to square one. Some may move, but c'est la vie, some may come as well.

But i'll tell you what, i can't wait for the season to start

Carn

[58er 6,352]

7 hours ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

Yes it is.

Yet some posters want to just blame the AFL for imposing a travel schedule on us, and forget that going to Alice was our choice, when assessing the Cairns games. 

Not entirely it  is our request To play in the Alice 

This  year we should request A Travel break after from The Alice game to ensure it isn't repeated.

We  don't always get what we want In AFL scheduling remember.

Club rightly doesn't want to jeopardise our $500,000 p.a. Which last year was even more important than normal year.

We have got to have a much better mental and tougher ( and a more ruthless) approach in any case.

[Bitter but optimistic 22,218]

6 hours ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

So it was all my fault! ??

Perhaps you need to visit The Manor and do some penance Luci ?!

[DeeSpencer 25,378]

Buckley, Hardwick, Goodwin?