POSTGAME: Rd 16 vs Fremantle

[Half forward flank 1,022]

1 minute ago, Coq au vin said:

Max and Hogan exchanged a few heated words at one stage.

Yeah, different. Hogan had a go at him for fumbling the ball in th goalsquare that resulted in a goal. That is not leadership, its just heated words.

[drdrake 3,163]

We brought in small forwards to be front and square but we never but the ball to a dangerous spot in our forward line.  We allowed the Dockers to take 40 odd more uncontested marks in the rain in the first half.  We went in with a massive defensive plan the same that we played against St Kilda, basically we pushed 18 players into our defensive half.  Dockers held their back six across the middle and controlled the ball.  Plain and simple this one is one the coaches, we went in with the wrong plan.

We fumble, over possess the ball and didn't even look like changing direction.  Kick down the line every single time.  Lucky we don't play Adelaide again they would beat us now.  A team with no direction or confidence.  

[NeveroddoreveN 1,034]

1 minute ago, Coq au vin said:

Max and Hogan exchanged a few heated words at one stage.

After Max fumbled that ball twice i can only imagine what Hogan said to him.

"Your goal Maxy!"

It infuriated Gawn but where is this degree of fight during the course of the actual game.  Reactionary and weak imo.

[Half forward flank 1,022]

I would love someone statistically minded to find out the average goals per game of our starting six forwards last night. I am guessing a combined total of 3 per game. It was glaringly obvious we wouldnt kick enough goals to win. 

[buck_nekkid 5,860]

Goodwin got the team to go away from the core ‘brand’ and play ugly vs the saints.  It worked and we won.  I think the club have then rushed to the next two games without a fundamental reset - we played both the Swans and the Dockers with an ugly football style that works against run and gun teams (like Saints) but plays straight into the swans and the dockers.

Not sure who we put this on - coach or players?  Coach asked them at half time to stop being boring and at no time did they cut angles, move the game on with speed or act with any daring.

All of the things that worked for us now worked against us.  We were slow by hand and foot, we were rushed and turned it over.  We avoided the contest in favour of protecting grass.  We didnt trust our teammates and relied on individual efforts that were completely disconnected from everything else.  We made 7 changes and  bought in guys who had no exposure to high level footy in 8 months.

Melk on Fyfe was a good move.  Got Melk involved more, and limited Fyfe’s output.  Tommo on Hogan worked well.  So some good coaching planning.

I think this one was lost above the shoulders by the group after the saints game.  Going to need to do a hard reset before GWS or we will see the same dross again.

 

 

[chook fowler 19,459]

Max's disposal has gone down the crapper. He seems to have lost the game awareness that he once had. 

[Demon Spofforth 286]

22 minutes ago, Rodney (Balls) Grinter said:

Some might say I'm looking for excuses (and they'd probably be right), but I honestly, I think the short turn arounds really hurt us this time around.  I think we needed to make the numbers of changes that we did because of both fatigue and unplanned injuries.  Not really even having an oppertunity to train between the Sydney debarkle and now would have made it hard to make corrections in our game plan and the players we bought it were mostly on the inexperienced side, so it was hard to expect them to come in and play to position/out of position.

Also think that we played well below our par the last few weeks, playing without confidence, like we were scared to loose and not to win.  Sydney and Freo had nothing to loose, so not so hard for them to show some late season form.

Logically, I can't see it happening based on the form that we've displayed the last two weeks, but similarly, it wouldn't surprise me if we turn it around and beat GWS and Essendon in the next two games and miss making finals by half a game to Collingwood, unless GC can pull off a huge upset and knock them off tomorrow.

It's not just the short turnarounds. It's the lack of a bye/rest during this second half of the season when the short turnarounds have been happening. Every other team bar Essendon has had a rest at some stage to help with dealing with the four day breaks, etc. I don't think its a coincidence that the two teams that are struggling to finish the season are the two that haven't had a bye/rest.

That's not an excuse. It's the reality. Our travel has also been next level in comparison to the likes of the Doggies and Saints, not too mention the Lions and Suns. Our lack of playing depth and our lack of mental strength has made those factors come to the fore even more. We're just not good enough to cope with those challenges and I can't see anything changing with the current coaching and player list.

[3183 Dee 2,853]

16 minutes ago, rolling fog said:

I didn't say anything about the players we have. I said Geelong, Hawthorn, Sydney and maybe Richmond have been able to achieve, to varying degrees, sustainable success without consistently high picks or massive trades.

Now of course there's exceptions to everything - Dangerfield, Franklin, Lynch etc. 

But they've developed the players they have or strategically targeted players they think they can develop. 

Case in point: take the Hawthorn sides of the three-peat years, a cursory look through their squad confirms, give or take, seven players that were top 20 picks by Hawthorn, and most of those were the players from the 'super-draft' years in the mid-2000's namely Hodge, Roughead, Lewis, Rioli etc. and all developed over a period of time by Clarkson and the support structures around them. The rest are picks +30 that they've nurtured to their potential or players they've secured from other clubs and rejuvenated - McEvoy, Hale, Burgoyne, Gibson, Lake, *cough* Frawley.

That's moneyball.  

We seem unwilling and/or unable to do this.

Correct - Hawthorn, Richmond and Sydney especially have/had a team system built so that players would know their roles and slot in - Clarkson said something along the lines of ‘when a soldier goes down, another takes his place’. Look at the Sydney game last week: several key players out, yet the younger guys coming in were able to play their role. It’s not rocket science, it just takes the guesswork away from the players. Of course, you do need the quality players in the side, but if it is running like a well-oiled machine, the lesser lights also play their role.

[DeePressed 114]

The first half proves to me the coaches are mostly to blame. I'll leave the damning players assessment to other threads.

Carbon copy of the Sydney game 1st half. 46 uncontested marks to 10. That's not effort that structure. 

Also selections remain a mystery to me, maybe trying to up their trade value. That backfired 2 fold.

I think the players are cooked, when always chasing games we get zero reward for effort leading to despair and frustration. Kicking with the wind last week and the 1st Qtr last night showed zero urgency. This grind them down attitude works on Crows but when your playing for the season go hardest in the 1st 5 minutes. 

TBH we're about where we should be on the ladder, mediocre.

[Ham 741]

12 hours ago, The Swimming Dee said:

These are my thoughts too. I’ve been a member for 25 years, joined my wife and family up and pay extra for GF guarantee. I live in Perth so get to see them live once per year. I’m done

You're running now, but stayed a member during the Neeld days, wow. 

[jnrmac 20,065]

8 hours ago, Hogan2014 said:

Goodwin presser sums it up .. saying we need to become ruthless so what the hell has he been doing for 4 years 

Neale Daniher said we had to become "ruthless"

That's how long we have been trying to become ruthless.

[John Demonic 5,796]

11 hours ago, jnrmac said:

It has been obvious since 2017 Goodwin can't coach. we lucked out with 4 good games in 2018 after being soundly beaten by the Swans in Rd 21. Hopefully there'll be many apologies forthcoming now for the bile that was spilled at those who could plainly see how hopeless he was.

People laughed at the Camp but the decision of the players to go the AFLPA was a disgrace and showed the lack of leadership at the club. And a real knock on Goodwin. Sadly we didn't take his resignation at that point.

And in the crunch games we repeatedly stunk it up with poor efforts and zero footy smarts. Poor scores kciking wi th the wind, trying to play champagne football in the soaking wet like tonight, no one standing on a goal line for a 50m shot on goal. Under 12 stuff. 

People excused 2019  but it wasn't an abberation. The same old problems and lack of cohesion, game plan, etc were obvious.

This year there is simply no excuse. We were the fittest we had ever been, had a full list to choose from, played every team once and just stank it up repeatedly.

The players dont buy the game plan. They're confused and have no idea what to do with ball in hand and no idea what to do when they don't have the ball. Its not that hard.

We got beaten the same way too many times, Chip kick keepings off, switch play, sit on the outside and pressure the ball carrier and they'll turn it over with handball. Rinse and repeat.

We have talent and a good coach would get this team humming. Goodwin aint it.

Bang on.

Hopefully they spare us (or just tone down) their critiques of other posters opinions on a new coach, list management and future direction too, given how wrong they've been on Goodwin.

Edited September 7, 2020 by John Demonic

[Deemania since 56 6,637]

10 hours ago, Clint Bizkit said:

I’ve said it a few times now but he’s no good when the ball is on the ground.

For somoeone so short he doesn’t get down low enough to pick up the ball.

Yep, roving 101 - bend ze knees!

[Brownie 5,980]

Playing the boundary lines:
What was with playing the boundary line so much? It looked so Neeld like.
Even when the game was on the line in the last quarter, as we pushed forward, there were no pushes back into the centre corridor from the wing. Not exactly taking the game on are we?

Forward Entries:
Watching the last quarter of the Bulldogs vs WCE game the other night, it struck me how far off we are with our delivery and positioning into the forward line. While the Eagles lost, they always kicked to empty space 30 to 40m out directly in front. Darling etc would lead from 10m out into that space.
Our first forward entry last night was Viney running out of the centre and slamming it on to his boot for another F50 bomb which was rebounded straight out.

This is not rocket science,
this comes down to systems and processes drilled into players so that they can respond consistently even when the pressure comes from the top 4 teams.
Goodwin was out coached by a first year AFL coach last night who had the support of his players to stick to a structure and process.
Yes, we've got passengers but the buck has to stop with the football department, our players look confused and disinterested.

I've sent my email to Barlett, Pert and the membership department asking for changes to be made and my auto renew to be cancelled.
I hope others at least let them know we're not going to put up with another year of this slop.

 

[Yze_13 297]

2 hours ago, Rusty Nails said:

Saty's brother?

Who's Saty?

[chook fowler 19,459]

4 minutes ago, Yze_13 said:

Who's Saty?

Don't go there!

[SFebes 4,884]

I don't buy into the travel rubbish. We have travelled well in previous years with a decent away record. If Sam Landsberger thinks we are still going ok then he is off his tree. It's not just the last two games, its over the last few years. We have bashed up lowly teams, even when we have won some, we've still played crap with no structure for most of the game only to kick away at the end (think Adel). When did Melbourne put in their last 4 quarter effort? Cairns is only a 2 hour flight from Bris, conditions were the same for all teams.

We played (like usual with no system or plan and run around with heads cut of, while the opposition has so much space to mark, run and carry, especially out of defence but easily through the middle too. We guard space, not players, hence UC marks differential. The same issues have been there for 3 or more years. Season on the line, finals on the line, yet we don't show up? You can see there's a bit of squabble between the players now too.

I truly believe Goodwin has no idea, we are meant to be ruthless and play with a brand yet skirt the boundary and are 18th for tackles and was it 13th for clearances? There is no play, its grab ball and bash it forward then repeat. Thats bush footy stuff. If we can't beat two mediocre sides with finals on the line then something is seriously up. You can excuse skills but you can't excuse a plan and effort. Good and well coached sides find a way. We have had 24 goalless quarters under Goodwin FFS, when is the evidence enough?!

He is so out of his depth it isn't funny, you can just tell by looking at him in the box, then we see game day. He's lost the players, there is no plan and they dont trust him, neither do supporters.

[Turner 1,514]

goody mentioned in his presser we might get harmes/brayshaw/sparrow/jackson back but this season is wasted and it would absolutely murder them to rush them back early except maybe harmes his doesnt seem to bad and hes a mature body so... 

here is how i'd line up for the last two games:

B: Lockhart May Lever

HB: Rivers Tomlinson Hibberd

? Langdon Viney Baker

HF: Fritsch Weideman Spargo

F: Bedford Brown Pickett

R: Gawn Oliver Petracca

IC: Salem Chandler Dunkley Harmes

E: Preuss Hore Melksham vdB

With two games to go in a season list decisions would have already been made up mostly ie Freo so stop playing Hunt, Hannan, Wagner, Smith, ANB and the likes for one two games here and there and actually see what some of these younger boys can do. 

Leave Jackson, Sparrow, Jordon, Bennell, Petty, Brayshaw in cotton wool.

Forget about Jones, Jetta, the Wags & Macs who arent going to be around next year. 

These stupid 1yr deals we gave half our list last year get extended into 2nd, 3rd years until we have 24yos+ with like >50 games experience just wasting list spots and contributing nothing when they play. How do the coaches not see it. 

Hibbo got torched 3 times, 3!! by Walters, so we over did the height against freo. Lockhart in for Smith is obvious because Hibbo gives us dash and penetration. If chandler is going to play lockdown defence or pressure forward go and find out let Salem run the narrow wing where hes got a strong body to go inside and engine to go outside too. vdB should be a break glass in case of bulk injuries a la this week but dunkley is the future onballer that deserves a crack when this scenario happens to see what he offers otherwise he's gone. 

Spargo, Bedford and Pickett play them all together and see how they pressure and swarm rather than half assing it with one or two of them and your washed up types ANB, Hunt and your >10 disposal markers Melky and Hannan. Fritsch when allowed to roam and kick inside 50 looked dangerous (how good was hitting pickett out the back). let him play that role alone without these two taking up his space and wasting his possessions.

Thoughts people?

[titan_uranus 25,020]

9 hours ago, bing181 said:

Not with this line-up.

And it's not just me "underselling" the players, look at Garry Lyon's comments tonight re "ordinary players".

 Players who played any of the three finals who didn't play last night:

TMac, OMac, Jones, Lewis, Tyson, Hannan, Frost, Spargo, Jetta

Of those, only Lewis, Tyson and Frost aren't on our list any more, and of the rest, only Jones was unavailable for selection last night.

The list isn't materially different.

I will say this: I am of the view that one player's regression has made more difference than the rest put together. That one player is TMac. Not only has he dropped off his 2018 level, he's gone so far away from it that he's unrecognisable as a player. If he had shed only a little bit of his 2018 form, but was still a 30-40 goal forward (in a 22-game season at least), things would be majorly different IMO.

21 minutes ago, Half forward flank said:

I would love someone statistically minded to find out the average goals per game of our starting six forwards last night. I am guessing a combined total of 3 per game. It was glaringly obvious we wouldnt kick enough goals to win. 

We didn't really have six starting forwards last night because we dropped Fritsch loose behind the ball.

But let's go with Weideman, Preuss, ANB, Pickett, Bedford and vandenBerg.

Weideman - 1.73, ANB - 0.8, Pickett - 0.5, vandenBerg - 0.1, Preuss - 0, Bedford - 0.

That's an overall total of 3.13, 55% of which comes from Weideman.

However, Fritsch is 1.29, Hunt is 1.25 and Melksham is 1. 

21 minutes ago, buck_nekkid said:

Goodwin got the team to go away from the core ‘brand’ and play ugly vs the saints.  It worked and we won.  I think the club have then rushed to the next two games without a fundamental reset - we played both the Swans and the Dockers with an ugly football style that works against run and gun teams (like Saints) but plays straight into the swans and the dockers.

Not sure who we put this on - coach or players?  Coach asked them at half time to stop being boring and at no time did they cut angles, move the game on with speed or act with any daring.

All of the things that worked for us now worked against us.  We were slow by hand and foot, we were rushed and turned it over.  We avoided the contest in favour of protecting grass.  We didnt trust our teammates and relied on individual efforts that were completely disconnected from everything else.  We made 7 changes and  bought in guys who had no exposure to high level footy in 8 months.

Melk on Fyfe was a good move.  Got Melk involved more, and limited Fyfe’s output.  Tommo on Hogan worked well.  So some good coaching planning.

I think this one was lost above the shoulders by the group after the saints game.  Going to need to do a hard reset before GWS or we will see the same dross again.

Was it?

Fyfe played pretty well, 7 clearances I think. Melksham had no impact.

I'm not sure it was the right call at all.

16 minutes ago, Demon Spofforth said:

It's not just the short turnarounds. It's the lack of a bye/rest during this second half of the season when the short turnarounds have been happening. Every other team bar Essendon has had a rest at some stage to help with dealing with the four day breaks, etc. I don't think its a coincidence that the two teams that are struggling to finish the season are the two that haven't had a bye/rest.

That's not an excuse. It's the reality. Our travel has also been next level in comparison to the likes of the Doggies and Saints, not too mention the Lions and Suns. Our lack of playing depth and our lack of mental strength has made those factors come to the fore even more. We're just not good enough to cope with those challenges and I can't see anything changing with the current coaching and player list.

I agree.

It's not enough to explain why we were so bad against both Sydney and Fremantle, but we've had a much tougher run than some other clubs.

[Little Richard 6,262]

His 'experiments' have cost us this year too. We're worse for not having Harmes in the middle and it has shown.

[NeveroddoreveN 1,034]

57 minutes ago, DeePressed said:

The first half proves to me the coaches are mostly to blame. I'll leave the damning players assessment to other threads.

Carbon copy of the Sydney game 1st half. 46 uncontested marks to 10. That's not effort that structure. 

Also selections remain a mystery to me, maybe trying to up their trade value. That backfired 2 fold.

I think the players are cooked, when always chasing games we get zero reward for effort leading to despair and frustration. Kicking with the wind last week and the 1st Qtr last night showed zero urgency. This grind them down attitude works on Crows but when your playing for the season go hardest in the 1st 5 minutes. 

TBH we're about where we should be on the ladder, mediocre.

I think that we tried really hard for 12 or so minutes when Freo had their biggest lead of the day .  They deserve zero rewards for such effort, clearly not tired.  Where is the urgency from the outset. We need to be statistical improbabilities before Goodwin makes any changes or the players to start showing some heart.  i wonder where we would be if there was more consistent effort....Quarter time this should have been addressed.  Just such a disappointing effort. Again.

[Wiseblood 24,637]

9 minutes ago, titan_uranus said:

 Players who played any of the three finals who didn't play last night:

TMac, OMac, Jones, Lewis, Tyson, Hannan, Frost, Spargo, Jetta

Of those, only Lewis, Tyson and Frost aren't on our list any more, and of the rest, only Jones was unavailable for selection last night.

The list isn't materially different.

I will say this: I am of the view that one player's regression has made more difference than the rest put together. That one player is TMac. Not only has he dropped off his 2018 level, he's gone so far away from it that he's unrecognisable as a player. If he had shed only a little bit of his 2018 form, but was still a 30-40 goal forward (in a 22-game season at least), things would be majorly different IMO.

Just on Tom - he has never been the same since his injuries after the 2018 season.  He has never even been close to being the same player, and I think this has had a major impact.  

[Wiseblood 24,637]

9 minutes ago, Luther said:

His 'experiments' have cost us this year too. We're worse for not having Harmes in the middle and it has shown.

I was happy at the time to back this move, Luther.  He is strong enough and quick enough to play on medium or small players, and his disposal is generally not too bad either, so in that instance it made sense.

But he looks lost down there.  If he wanted to get him out of the midfield for whatever reason, then he should have shifted him forward where he has played some good footy in the past.  It's turned out to be a shocker of a decision.

[The Swimming Dee 1,904]

53 minutes ago, Ham said:

You're running now, but stayed a member during the Neeld days, wow. 

Yeah...That is a fair point. Maybe it was an overreaction. What a disappointing game - no system, no passion, no plan b...I am disgusted with last night

[demonique 314]

One of the dumbest things I saw last night was Viney leaping for a ball in front of and getting in the way of Gawn FFS . That bloke is a warrior , no doubt , but he is one of the stupidest players going around. Stuffs up the mids to be honest and much better without him there . Down to the forward line and do some crumbing please .