Farewell Sam Frost

[chookrat 4,268]

29 minutes ago, Moonshadow said:

Hyperbole.

The reality is it was picks 10 and 19 for Lever

We got pick 6 for Hogan which could've been Ben King if we had taken it to draft night. Alas, we didn't. And Hogan has been quite the flop for Freo.

Please name an ex Melbourne player that Clarko has improved?

Exhibit A - Fitzy at Melbourne

 

Exhibit B - Fitzy at Hawthorn

 

[Ethan Tremblay 31,318]

13 minutes ago, chookrat said:

Exhibit A - Fitzy at Melbourne

 

Exhibit B - Fitzy at Hawthorn

 

Is that the same Jack Fitzpatrick that played a total of four games for Hawthorn in two seasons before being delisted at 26 years old? 

Edited October 2, 2019 by Ethan Tremblay

[chook fowler 19,755]

7 minutes ago, Ethan Tremblay said:

Is that the same Jack Fitzpatrick that played a total of four games for Hawthorn in two seasons before being delisted at 26 years old? 

To be fair, concussion played a big part in his decision to retire. 

[Ethan Tremblay 31,318]

5 minutes ago, chook fowler said:

To be fair, concussion played a big part in his decision to retire. 

Was he concussed in that clip? Far out. In all seriousness though, poor fella that would suck. 

I listened to a podcast he spoke on and the voice doesn’t match the look. He came across quite intelligent.

Edited October 2, 2019 by Ethan Tremblay

[Macca 17,121]

1 hour ago, binman said:

Most of all i reckon he needs to get quicker from a standing start. i hope burgess focuses on improving his speed over the first 5 metres

Yes, that too BM but Oscar needs some muscle in the contest.  Reality is that he went out of the side and became back-up accordingly.  And you do need back--up with key backs.

But he'll need to improve his game (and body shape) in the off-season and then force his way into the side and stay there.  Right now,  that's a big ask.  But all things are possible and I wish him well.

And here's the thing,  back-up players eventually get replaced by those who have a chance of becoming good,  established players.  And if the team doesn't get back into finals then a greater number of list changes eventuates.  I'm sure most know all that but for now,  Oscar will remain.  Beyond 2020,  who knows?

Edited October 2, 2019 by Macca

[Bombay Airconditioning 6,485]

5 hours ago, Wiseblood said:

Reckon Dal Santo sums up my feelings on Frosty:

Nick Dal Santo: Sam Frost is fantastic defender but questionable with ball in hand. In the modern game you have to be able to make split-second decisions off the half back line. I think that might be the reason that the Demons haven't re-signed him.

In response to Nick Dal Santo : Why is Frost the problem? What is the primary  role of key defender? We have a key defender that can on his day beat the best fwds in the comp, his speed is an asset when attacking the footy to spoil a mark or chase down an opposing player. He also uses his speed to run and carry and break lines, this does result in a lot of turnovers. Why does Frost continually do this? Can we either work with him on his disposal or make those around him accountable? What exactly is Hibberd good for? How did people view his season? Salem his generally a good user of the footy but how damaging is he? Does he take the game on enough or does he play it too safe? Surely there’s room for his game to go to another level. 

3 hours ago, spirit of norm smith said:

Did anyone watch this year? Frost had some clangers. But others were as bad!  How does ANB get a new contract? 

Did anyone watch Frost beat Riewoldt, Josh Kennedy Naughton Ben-Brown Franklin this year. Players who usually kick a bag on us. 

Yet Oscar McDonald gets goal after goal scored on him and is slow and ineffective.  Sure Oscar does not get clangers and thats because he does not get the ball and when he does it’s a 12 metre pass sideways. 

Goodys losing me with his decisions 

Couldn’t agree more, primary job of a key defender is to shut down opposition key fwds. He does in spades.

[roy11 4,032]

28 minutes ago, Ethan Tremblay said:

Was he concussed in that clip? Far out. In all seriousness though, poor fella that would suck. 

I listened to a podcast he spoke on and the voice doesn’t match the look. He came across quite intelligent.

he may have been concussed in the tunnel-ball clip

[spirit of norm smith 16,666]

6 minutes ago, Bombay Airconditioning said:

In response to Nick Dal Santo : Why is Frost the problem? What is the primary  role of key defender? We have a key defender that can on his day beat the best fwds in the comp, his speed is an asset when attacking the footy to spoil a mark or chase down an opposing player. He also uses his speed to run and carry and break lines, this does result in a lot of turnovers. Why does Frost continually do this? Can we either work with him on his disposal or make those around him accountable? What exactly is Hibberd good for? How did people view his season? Salem his generally a good user of the footy but how damaging is he? Does he take the game on enough or does he play it too safe? Surely there’s room for his game to go to another level. 

Couldn’t agree more, primary job of a key defender is to shut down opposition key fwds. He does in spades.

Consensus 

[spirit of norm smith 16,666]

2 hours ago, xiss said:

Relax

I`m sure the Oscar McDonald contract extension negotiations are well underway and Josh Wagner is locked up

Both are unbelievably BAD. Recontracted !!!! Wtf !! Ffs !! 

[Wiseblood 24,637]

17 minutes ago, Bombay Airconditioning said:

In response to Nick Dal Santo : Why is Frost the problem? What is the primary  role of key defender? We have a key defender that can on his day beat the best fwds in the comp, his speed is an asset when attacking the footy to spoil a mark or chase down an opposing player. He also uses his speed to run and carry and break lines, this does result in a lot of turnovers. Why does Frost continually do this? Can we either work with him on his disposal or make those around him accountable? What exactly is Hibberd good for? How did people view his season? Salem his generally a good user of the footy but how damaging is he? Does he take the game on enough or does he play it too safe? Surely there’s room for his game to go to another level. 

Couldn’t agree more, primary job of a key defender is to shut down opposition key fwds. He does in spades.

With a fit list, he doesn't get a game in our side.  We brought in May to play his role.  You only need to look at the games May played to understand how much better he is than Frosty.  He is far more composed, a far better user of the footy and makes better decisions all round with ball in hand and without it.  That's not a knock on Frost, just facts.

Some will argue that it's better to have him in the magoos than to trade him in case of injury, but the world doesn't work like that.  He clearly wants a good pay day, which he is well within his rights to ask, but we won't pay him that to sit at Casey.  So, he looks elsewhere for the money and the job security he wants, which it looks like he'll get at Hawthorn.

I know he had a good year, but let's not allow it to blind that bigger picture.  He isn't best 22, and he wants best 22 money.  It isn't happening, so we both move on.  That's footy and that's life.

[Deefiant 441]

4 hours ago, Garbo said:

Feels like ground hog day here replace Frosts name with Watts, Silvia, Travis Johnstone or woewodin and it’s the same discussion, other than Stef Martin and Howe I can’t think of a single player in the last 20 years I regret losing, and I don’t think we had a choice with the last 2

Jeff Farmer shattered 10 year old me. 

I'm not that concerned with losing frost. I'd prefer to keep him over O.Mac but if we can't fit him under our cap I understand. To me he is a role player, that takes on the no.2 forward. I think O.Mac is able to play that role (2018 o mac not 2019 O mac) without being a significant downgrade. 

I am a little annoyed that we are not even getting pick 21 back that we originally used for him given he has improved since his time at gws, but I think that is more a result of being desperate for players at the time rather than good trading.

[Bombay Airconditioning 6,485]

3 minutes ago, Wiseblood said:

With a fit list, he doesn't get a game in our side.  We brought in May to play his role.  You only need to look at the games May played to understand how much better he is than Frosty.  He is far more composed, a far better user of the footy and makes better decisions all round with ball in hand and without it.  That's not a knock on Frost, just facts.

Some will argue that it's better to have him in the magoos than to trade him in case of injury, but the world doesn't work like that.  He clearly wants a good pay day, which he is well within his rights to ask, but we won't pay him that to sit at Casey.  So, he looks elsewhere for the money and the job security he wants, which it looks like he'll get at Hawthorn.

I know he had a good year, but let's not allow it to blind that bigger picture.  He isn't best 22, and he wants best 22 money.  It isn't happening, so we both move on.  That's footy and that's life.

Agree to disagree on Frosty Wise, Frosty can play on more than just the KPF. I believe we could have May, Lever and Frost in the same side if we got more creative/damaging drive from our two back flankers and wingers. 

[Wiseblood 24,637]

1 minute ago, Bombay Airconditioning said:

Agree to disagree on Frosty Wise, Frosty can play on more than just the KPF. I believe we could have May, Lever and Frost in the same side if we got more creative/damaging drive from our two back flankers and wingers. 

Fair enough.  I'm of the belief that the club will want to go a little smaller down back (May to take their best forward, then spread Lever, Jetta, Hibberd and Hore across the others as the matchups call for) and all five of those are more composed and better users of the footy than Frost is, which is something we need more than anything coming out of the back half.

[binman 44,760]

37 minutes ago, Bombay Airconditioning said:

In response to Nick Dal Santo : Why is Frost the problem? What is the primary  role of key defender? We have a key defender that can on his day beat the best fwds in the comp, his speed is an asset when attacking the footy to spoil a mark or chase down an opposing player. He also uses his speed to run and carry and break lines, this does result in a lot of turnovers. Why does Frost continually do this? Can we either work with him on his disposal or make those around him accountable? What exactly is Hibberd good for? How did people view his season? Salem his generally a good user of the footy but how damaging is he? Does he take the game on enough or does he play it too safe? Surely there’s room for his game to go to another level. 

Couldn’t agree more, primary job of a key defender is to shut down opposition key fwds. He does in spades.

No. The primary job of a defender is to stop the opposition scoring goals. 

[DeeSpencer 26,612]

6 minutes ago, Wiseblood said:

Fair enough.  I'm of the belief that the club will want to go a little smaller down back (May to take their best forward, then spread Lever, Jetta, Hibberd and Hore across the others as the matchups call for) and all five of those are more composed and better users of the footy than Frost is, which is something we need more than anything coming out of the back half.

Surely we've all seen enough of Lever one on one by now to know that's not the answer. We'll need another tall and ideally one with the flexibility to play on fast medium sized guys, but sometimes it's worth taking a step backwards for a year or two developing or trading in a long term answer. It's not impossible to find key defenders from the delistings or state leagues either.

[Wiseblood 24,637]

Just now, DeeSpencer said:

Surely we've all seen enough of Lever one on one by now to know that's not the answer. We'll need another tall and ideally one with the flexibility to play on fast medium sized guys, but sometimes it's worth taking a step backwards for a year or two developing or trading in a long term answer. It's not impossible to find key defenders from the delistings or state leagues either.

I wasn't suggesting we play Lever in a one on one role.  Not all the time anyway.  I think May takes their gun forward and we play the rest around him.  Even if Lever takes their second forward one week, we've got so much flexibility with the other blokes that we can zone off and support where necessary.

I agree that we can find cheap depth elsewhere, and I also believe that Petty has the capability to step up after more AFL exposure this year, while Joel Smith can also play as a third tall as well (if he can get fit).

[Mach5 4,768]

4 hours ago, TRIGON said:

Regardless if you're a fan of Frost - or not as the case may be -  I think pick 47 is a pretty poor return from our perspective.

Do you really think that?

Bugger me.

[whatwhat say what 23,725]

we traded a second round pick for frost, but after all the other picks came into it in terms of value he worked out as being about a pick 60 valuation

 

i'm not fussed if he goes or he stays, as i don't think we're going anywhere while he's in our best 22

[DeeSpencer 26,612]

7 minutes ago, Wiseblood said:

I wasn't suggesting we play Lever in a one on one role.  Not all the time anyway.  I think May takes their gun forward and we play the rest around him.  Even if Lever takes their second forward one week, we've got so much flexibility with the other blokes that we can zone off and support where necessary.

I agree that we can find cheap depth elsewhere, and I also believe that Petty has the capability to step up after more AFL exposure this year, while Joel Smith can also play as a third tall as well (if he can get fit).

When it comes to games against teams with 2 gun talls we'll be in a bit of trouble though. Take Richmond, if we send May to Lynch then it's Petty/Oscar or an outgunned Lever trying to cover Riewoldt or vice versa on Lynch, not a good result. 

I never had all that much trust in Frost defensively anyway, too many mental mistakes defending. Even if we kept him I'd be advocating heading to the draft for a young athletic key defender of the future.

[drysdale demon 4,837]

22 minutes ago, Mach5 said:

Bugger me.

I am glad you didn't end your first word with a Y

[Moonshadow 17,678]

2 hours ago, Fifty-5 said:

Frawley get canned here and he has been overall ordinary at Hawthorn. But he was instrumental in their 2015 flag when the moved him back after playing him forward in the first week.  He kept Walker/Jenkins, Pavlich and Kennedy quiet in successive weeks.

 

2 hours ago, chookrat said:

Exhibit A - Fitzy at Melbourne

 

Exhibit B - Fitzy at Hawthorn

 

So the evidence for Clarko's ability to transform ex Melbourne players into guns (and leading on from that, why he'll do the same with Frost) amounts to 3 good games by Chip out of 86 and one passage of play by Fitzy???

FMD...

I rest my case, Your Honour.

Edited October 2, 2019 by Moonshadow

[Neil Crompton 5,821]

If someone doesn’t want to be at the club, why would you keep him? Surely it’s that simple. I don’t care how good or bad he was. If he can’t buy into the red and blue, get the best deal you can for him. 

Ive certainly gone cold on Frost. And it’s obvious by the clubs reaction - or lack of - that they have too.

Best of luck sunshine. 

[Adam The God 30,657]

54 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

When it comes to games against teams with 2 gun talls we'll be in a bit of trouble though. Take Richmond, if we send May to Lynch then it's Petty/Oscar or an outgunned Lever trying to cover Riewoldt or vice versa on Lynch, not a good result. 

I never had all that much trust in Frost defensively anyway, too many mental mistakes defending. Even if we kept him I'd be advocating heading to the draft for a young athletic key defender of the future.

I think this will be Petty, but would not have minded landing Keath.

[DeeSpencer 26,612]

5 minutes ago, A F said:

I think this will be Petty, but would not have minded landing Keath.

I'm a Petty fan but he's a little slow and inconsistent at the contests, probably will always be better suited up the ground. I think we need to get back to using late round/rookie picks as they were intended to be used and taking some project talls.

[Cards13 9,117]

5 hours ago, Bring-Back-Powell said:

Sounds right.

Hawthorn usually get their man and their mantra is to pay unders for him. Same with Geelong.

If you want to win a deal in trade week, Hawthorn would be the last team you’d deal with.

They win some, they lose others like this trade plus they are looking to bring in Frost on top of losing Burton and 2 picks.