Roosy: "Deplorable" Dees have "no recognisable brand"

[Cam Schwab's Whiteboard 209]

2 minutes ago, Rusty Nails said:

 

His heart (and PJ's) was never in it.  Did a professional job whilst paid but if it was they would have re-signed for at least another two to finish off the early good work.

Was always a short term 'AFL' driven fix to right a badly listing rusty ship.

The ship was righted but the rust remains.

I'm not so sure about this position. I often see Jackson on the train home from the game with his Melbourne gear on, and Roos has repeatedly stated that he is a Melbourne man even this year. Roos' comments are out of frustration of the fall from what he put into place, not because it's all about him. Yes, both were heavily influenced by the AFL to take the jobs, but that does not preclude them becoming part of the Club.

 

What actually needs to be addressed IMO is this belief that it's their fault because they didn't stick around 'to finish the job'. Both put Melbourne in the best position it has been in since the 50s, and at some point the Club needs to take responsibility for itself and drop the continual finger-pointing and/or hoping for a rescue.  Unfortunately, the way things have panned out since both left it seems the Club has broken with their work in two ways:

1) Jackson's replacement: This is not to suggest that Pert hasn't been doing a good job, or that he wont be a fantastic appointment in the long term, but I remember some talk about Jackson being ignored/excluded in discussions to his successor. Considering the job he did, which we must all agree was phenomenal given what he started with, surely the Club should have allowed him to hand-pick the next CEO to ensure the trajectory continued in the same way. I could be wrong about this, but that's the way I remember it. 

Having said that, the Club still seems to be going fine off-field (next year will prove to be a challenge considering a likely large drop in membership).

2) Goodwin's appointment: As opposed to the new CEO, the choice of next coach was the choice of Roos, and regardless of whether Goodwin was his first choice or not, the platform was set for Goodwin to be mentored and eased into the position. I am a big supporter of this approach, and, importantly, the narrative coming from the Club throughout this time was that Goodwin has the same approach to football that Roos has, and so the transition would be smooth and build off what Roos did. However, and has most have highlighted, the coaching approach since Roos left has seemingly broken with the platform that was put in place, in favour of all out manic attack on the ball and an ultra-aggressive press designed to hold territory but proven to be lacking against composed, clean, and speedy opposition. Gone is any sort of balance that can come with a sure and reliable defence. 

Roos is right about a lack of 'brand'. When he was there, it was clear what the team was trying to do even if it wasn't quite capable to carrying it out. However, what now? We have a coach saying that we need to do a better job of playing the Melbourne way; players talking about how they lack fundamentals and are without answers as to what's going on; and what seems to be an all-round lack of confidence in an approach that has failed but is also being pushed as the way out of it. To me, that's absolute nothingness - a lack of direction in attempting to rectify what has gone wrong. I am perfectly fine if I can see what they are trying to do, but are simply incapable of doing it because of a lack of fitness and injuries due to a horror offseason, or if we are a couple of players short of the combination required to do what they're trying to do. However, the things that the team tries to do are also the things that still remain its strengths. This season, these things have been countered by opposition coaches without response. The plan for next year seems to be more of the same, but doing a better job of it. That's not a plan, that's madness.

I have no idea of what they are trying to do, and am very worried.   

 

[Lord Nev 13,512]

5 minutes ago, praha said:

Is he looking to get back involved?

Not sure on if he's made up his mind just yet, but from what I've heard he does have the passion to get back involved at clubland in some capacity. Won't be with the Dees though.

[drdrake 3,178]

You can't defend when you turn the footy over the way we do.  That is the bottom line, we work so hard to win the ball just to turn it over

[sue 9,107]

I don't get this 'brand' thing.  When you are missing targets, handballing to the opponent and kicking randomly, then how can any brand (whatever that is) be apparent to the observer?  The fundamental problem is not lack of brand.  It is lack of skills and confidence (and dare I say it, lack of uninjured players doesn't help either).

[dazzledavey36 54,947]

53 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

Standard Demonland response. Attack the person making the comment rather than admit the problem.

 

The reason we are in this position is simply because of Goodwins work, nothing to do with Roosy at all.

Some on here have issues with the timing of Roos coaching tenure. In my opinion 3 years wasn't enough. In his last game as coach we got thumped by 111 points by Geelong and I voiced concern about where our list was at and that it still needed a lot of work and developing. 

48 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

Roos' situation changed. That happens in life mate. His family were able to stay in Australia due to a massive amount of work put it in by his wife that saw her business really flourish. Worth finding things out before having an uninformed crack at someone.

Part of the reason he's looking at getting back involved is how the performance of the MFC has impacted what he considers his legacy. Sure, he has a healthy ego, but you need that to survive in the footy industry where random people you've never met try to pull you down all the time (hint hint). Some people think of that as competitiveness, so not surprising some Demons fans don't recognize it.

As for fans chanting his name, please, is that a serious point? Did he initiate that?

But again, another Demonald poster potting the person rather than recognizing the comments.

Few points,

Of course things in our life change, but he was back doing full time media commitments with Fox and triple M the next year (2017). From my understanding he was also open to being a coaching director for the club but nothing eventuated.. was there a break down in communication between Jackson and Roos? 

Survive in the footy industry? What does Roosy need to survive from? [censored] spare me honestly Lord Nev.. he is well noted premiership coach with the legacy of creating a bloods culture that has instilled discipline and leadership. Still going strong as of today.

So his only reason to back to football is so that his legacy isn't hindered by our current performance? What a load of [censored]. If thats his sole reason then he's only doing it out of spite.

Proves again thats its only ever about Paul Roos the man himself.

Did a lot of good things for the club and got us going when we needed to. But also did some questionable things.

Some supporters are entitled to question his motive right from the very start LN. 

Edited July 29, 2019 by dazzledavey36

[Demon3 2,541]

I can take losing, after all, its been something we have had to get used to in the past, but for me, who loves footy like we all do, the worst thing is this club is back to being embarrassing. I'm embarrassed to tell people I am a demon, I am embarrassed to talk about my club. Since the prelim loss last year, everything its done has been sub par, mediocre and well awful. 

Its hard to fathom that not even 12 months on from winning 2 finals and losing in a prelim that you go from being so optimistic to downright embarrassed and that's a blight on the club, the coaches and the players.

[Lord Nev 13,512]

9 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Proves again thats its only ever about Paul Roos the man himself.

Did a lot of good things for the club and got us going when we needed to. But also did some questionable things.

Some supporters are entitled to question his motive right from the very start LN. 

Look, apologies for maybe coming on a bit strong, it's just a point of frustration with me sometimes with fellow Dees fans that they have a crack at a man who did a lot to turn our club around.

Most competitive people can come across as being about themselves. I have no problem with that. It means they have pride in what their doing and want to win. I feel like we don't have enough of that kind of attitude at our club.

What 'questionable things' did he do?

Of course you can question whatever you like, but isn't it the results that matter?

[Superunknown 4,217]

27 minutes ago, sue said:

I don't get this 'brand' thing.  When you are missing targets, handballing to the opponent and kicking randomly, then how can any brand (whatever that is) be apparent to the observer?  The fundamental problem is not lack of brand.  It is lack of skills and confidence (and dare I say it, lack of uninjured players doesn't help either).

It's corporate gobbledygook.

Like this whole use of "print" - "the CPI has printed at x%".

 

[Sorry kids 635]

Purge the South Australians

Goody-Viney-Mahoney-ANB-Stretch

No SA has ever taken a Vic team to the flag.

[whatwhat say what 22,771]

i am sure roos finds it absolutely galling that everything that he put in place on-field and to a lesser extent jackson off-field set up has been torn down

we have become VERY easy to score against under goodwin, whereas we primarily had a defensive gameplan under roos

[Diamond_Jim 12,590]

Those drums are beating loudly.

Goodwin is lucky that the season is nearly at an end and at which time MFC will sink into its usual obscurity.

 

[Demon Dynasty 17,109]

1 hour ago, praha said:

We knew what we were getting when we financed the car: a three year lease. It is grossly unfair to blame Roos AT ALL for this. He made it crystal clear what his goal was and how long he was committed for. His and PJ's roles were to right the ship and set the foundations. We cannot pass accountability away from the current administration and coaching team.

What Roos has said is a fundamental criticism of Goodwin's coaching. What we are seeing this year is on par with the trash we saw in 2014 when Roos took over: we battle it out for three quarters and then lay down in the last with deplorable skills. But you know what? Roos quickly stamped that out and set us up. Goodwin was gifted a finals-caliber list that he has slowly gutted with losses of Hogan, Kent, Dunn, Watts and others. Yes it was probably right to move them on but instead of filling those roles he has stacked our backline, effectively putting a barrier at the end of the rail tracks but letting the steam train just chog along at high speed until it crashes on the last line of defense. It's been a shockingly one dimensional approach to list management and has set us back 2-3 years. Unless we recruit line breakers, a KPF, pace, and grow some balls and dump the perennial losers on the list we will just jog along in neutral.

It's been a [censored] pathetic season. Goodwin and his crew get a firm F. Maybe a D- because of the injuries. But that's a big maybe. Our engine room has stayed intact but our transitional defense is deplorable and absolutely nothing has been done in his three years at the helm to stem the flow of goals after a turnover.

Forget about training and educating the players. Goodwin needs a [censored] crash course in defensive accountability, because it's been lacking from the team's structure since he arrived. Remember back to 2017, it was the same issue. We were scoring so it was diluted but the same issue was there. as it was this year. 

I hope he turns it around. If he does then we're contending again. If he doesn't then we're down the bottom. Unfortunately there is no in between.

He needs to quickly rebuild our core right through the middle otherwise his coaching career is finished. 

Don't under estimate the FFF (Forwardline Flop Factor) in this year's demise Praha.  It's been immense IMO and we would be knocking on the door of the final eight had we fired a shot here.

One of Goody's (with assistance from Macca) greatest fails was to see Hogan walk without a 'genuine' KF coming in to replace (a la Lynch) while placing way too much emphasis on the ability of Weid to fill the void.

Jeffy hasn't quite been up to his 2018 standards in terms of overall ability to impact up forward (yes still hitting the scoreboard and putting tackles on inside 50 which is great but outside of that) hasn't helped either.  Partially due to the shoulder issue?

No other quality smalls to assist Jeffy other than a medium small in Hunt popping up at times.

Melk, our best ball user coming inside 50 and probably  most mobile impact forward.  One of our most accurate goal kickers also (not many of those either) has barely been on the park.

The biggest fall IMO T-Mac.  Firing on all cylinders once in 17 attempts!

Then we have three keys mids who havent been anywhere near their 2018 form in Jones, Gus and Viney except on rare occasions and usually not together.

Hibb's massive dropp off from his 2018 form.

Apart from the Clarry, Big m, Harmes, Salem, the improvement of the Frostmeister and a bit of May brutality & attack on the ball it's been another season from hell really.

Edited July 29, 2019 by Rusty Nails

[Wrecker45 3,378]

I blame Daniher. Up and down every year for injury factors set us up for this.

The same demonland posters back then would have been complaining about the coaching rather than acknowledging the injuries we had to key players on our list.

it’s funny how we bounced back every second year with the same coach when we got our good players on the park.

[Lord Nev 13,512]

5 minutes ago, Wrecker45 said:

I blame Daniher. Up and down every year for injury factors set us up for this.

The same demonland posters back then would have been complaining about the coaching rather than acknowledging the injuries we had to key players on our list.

it’s funny how we bounced back every second year with the same coach when we got our good players on the park.

You can separate the two though. I don't think anyone would deny the impact our injuries have had this year (not even on Demonland, surely?), but that doesn't mean there aren't other issues also. Our game style has been a mess and the level of confusion among the players on game day is well above the level that could be just explained away with cohesion. The coaching structure changes both midseason and likely at end of season should tell us it wasn't just the injuries.

[praha 11,240]

3 minutes ago, Wrecker45 said:

I blame Daniher. Up and down every year for injury factors set us up for this.

The same demonland posters back then would have been complaining about the coaching rather than acknowledging the injuries we had to key players on our list.

it’s funny how we bounced back every second year with the same coach when we got our good players on the park.

Rubbish. Every team has injuries but Melbourne is the only one in the league that appears to be consistantly destroyed by them to such a degree that they drop down to the bottom 4. It doesn't happen to any other club as often as it does Melbourne. What does that tell you? Daniher was a good-average coach who really should have been let go after 2003. Keeping him on for another 4 years badly hindered our recruitment. He fluffed the Molan pick, and brought in a bunch of no hopers like Armstrong, Bate, Miller etc. to form a "core" of average footballers. No wonder we fell so hard after Neitz, Robbo, Yze and co left. Daniher was both a saviour and catalyst of the club's problems. Not his fault entirely but injuries were far from his biggest issue. After 2003 he said we were in "rebuild" mode after falling in the Semi in 2002 but that was just an excuse that we all fell for. 

2003: disgraceful season 

2004: 1st after 18 rounds, lost last 4, then choked against 8th-placed Essendon in the Elim

2005: Lost 7 in a row mid-way through the season and if not for Robbo's heroics vs Geelong we would have missed finals. Lost by 11 goals in Elim.

2006: Started season 0-3, lost to Carlton twice (they won 3 games for the year), then gifted Freo their first ever finals win.

Daniher was a great man and a club stalwart. But he wasn't that good a coach.

[picket fence 17,170]

10 hours ago, DeeSpencer said:

Brand, brand. Doesn't really mean anything. Yeah we had a brand under Roos - it was defending by flooding numbers back and keeping games low scoring on the hope we'd fluke a win.

Roos did nothing about the escalating Misson problem, put it in the too hard basket. Didn't do much about developing the next wave of small forwards and outside runners, they weren't his priority. Where was the foresight that Jones, Garlett, Hibberd would all slow down at the same time and why was the focus then on adding Lewis to that mix? What about coaches, did he have the right assistants in place to support Goodwin?

Brand, brand, brand. Load of junk.

Too many on this site accept mediocrity. A lot like our players and probably a majority at the club. Roosy is entitled to his opinion which I agree with 100%. He is also paid to give informed opinion. He knows and we know!! What he says is 100% correct. We are 17th.... pathetic!!

So dont talk Brand Load of junk. 

We have no brand at present and not looking that we will have anytime soon.

Blowtorch should be on EVERYONE. From President, Coach, players, right down to the bootstuder.

We would want to improve big time from practice games start next year. If we do not, stand by for the fallout!

 

Edited July 30, 2019 by picket fence

[Sorry kids 635]

Why would a coach come up with," our brand" in the first place. Is it something he thought up or are words being put in his mouth by the marketing or other dept? Because I am not the slightest bit interested in following a brand. a losing team, yes, a battling team yes,  a brand no. Someone from above should have told him to shut it down the first time he uttered it.

[chook fowler 19,459]

When the Club  performs the way it has, it deserves to be whacked hard.

[Laughing Goat 308]

10 hours ago, DeeSpencer said:

Brand, brand. Doesn't really mean anything. Yeah we had a brand under Roos - it was defending by flooding numbers back and keeping games low scoring on the hope we'd fluke a win.

Roos did nothing about the escalating Misson problem, put it in the too hard basket. Didn't do much about developing the next wave of small forwards and outside runners, they weren't his priority. Where was the foresight that Jones, Garlett, Hibberd would all slow down at the same time and why was the focus then on adding Lewis to that mix? What about coaches, did he have the right assistants in place to support Goodwin?

Brand, brand, brand. Load of junk.

Roos escalated our wins, developed a sustainable game plan that held up against quality opposition & finally the MFC supporters could go to the footy with some confidence that the players would be competitive.

Success at football clubs is about wins, loses & premierships & whether you agree or not, we were heading in the right direction with a recognised 'brand' or the right 'balance' that won enough games to elevate the club.

Unfortunately, the current regime has squandered all of Roosey's great work with no game plan, no balance & thoughts only for their own personal development & success.

One step forward & 2 steps back.....

 

 

 

 

 

[Moonshadow 17,676]

2 hours ago, Rusty Nails said:

 

His heart was never in it.  PJ's as well.  Both did a very professional job whilst paid to.

Was always a short term 'AFL' driven fix to right a badly listing rusty (culture) ship.

The ship was righted but the rust remains.

Needed at least another two years (or more) from both to eradicate the rust.

Fake news. Roos has acknowledged he is a Melbourne fan now who watches us closely, I saw him at the G wearing a MFC scarf last year. I also see PJ at the footy regularly with his missus both decked out in MFC merch and closely following the game. He was there vs Carlton a few weeks ago.

I'll agree they needed at least 2 more years (probably 4) to really set us up.

They left us in a good position, but a half baked position with a dodgey oven.

Edited July 30, 2019 by Moonshadow

[Cam Schwab's Whiteboard 209]

4 minutes ago, Sorry kids said:

Why would a coach come up with," our brand" in the first place. Is it something he thought up or are words being put in his mouth by the marketing or other dept? Because I am not the slightest bit interested in following a brand. a losing team, yes, a battling team yes,  a brand no. Someone from above should have told him to shut it down the first time he uttered it.

Roos doesn't mean 'Brand' like Nike or Coca Cola. He means approach to the game; the way the team tries to win; its point of difference; its philosophy. When he originally talked about 'brand' at Melbourne, he meant that we would be a contested ball winning team with a sound defence,. The idea was that by winning the ball and being hard to score against, the team would be in a position to win in all games.

Last year, the 'brand' was winning the ball and to then claim and hold territory to generate scoring opportunities. That's why there are inside midfielders playing small forward and linking roles in the forward half of the ground. Originally it was found wanting and so they relaxed the territory focus around mid-year that offered more space to work in in the front half, 1:1 forward contests, easy over-the-top goals, and a decent chance of defending turnovers. This year, there has been a revision to last year's early approach, an addition of lightyear speed, a subsequent doubling-down of it when things have gone wrong/been found out, and lack of change. The 'brand' hasn't worked, and what is left is a lack of ability, confidence, and, ultimately, direction. Roos is saying that when he watched Melbourne, there doesn't seem to be a clear method by which they approach the game that works and/or offers a way to win. I agree - I have no idea how they are trying to win games when the opposition is more than happy for them to do what they want in the knowledge that the team's inefficiency is insurmountable.

[Lord Nev 13,512]

21 minutes ago, Sorry kids said:

Why would a coach come up with," our brand" in the first place. Is it something he thought up or are words being put in his mouth by the marketing or other dept? Because I am not the slightest bit interested in following a brand. a losing team, yes, a battling team yes,  a brand no. Someone from above should have told him to shut it down the first time he uttered it.

Brand just means what they stand for. Get over the terminology and focus on the point.

[Ron Burgundy 8,584]

52 minutes ago, whatwhatsaywhat said:

i am sure roos finds it absolutely galling that everything that he put in place on-field and to a lesser extent jackson off-field set up has been torn down

we have become VERY easy to score against under goodwin, whereas we primarily had a defensive gameplan under roos

I agree. Roos laid the defensive foundations and structures very effectively, and it looks and feels as though Goodwin has unpicked all of this rather than using it as the base from which to build the team's offensive capabilities.

 

[daisycutter 29,616]

i wonder how much of this [censored] goes back to the pre-season camp the players vetoed

always did raise a red flag for me

whether you blame coach or players for this fiasco camp, did it create a dis-connect between players and footy dept that remained unresolved?

can't help but think that there is something deeper going on here that's not being vocalised

[Kent 2,910]

3 minutes ago, daisycutter said:

i wonder how much of this [censored] goes back to the pre-season camp the players vetoed

always did raise a red flag for me

whether you blame coach or players for this fiasco camp, did it create a dis-connect between players and footy dept that remained unresolved?

can't help but think that there is something deeper going on here that's not being vocalised

Yes Daisy

I agree There is still an odour about the place. Never,ever explained satisfactorily by the club.

There are still a few rumours hanging around. A number of players bugged out in my opinion. 

but then like all on here its just an opinion.