Preseason Training - Week commencing 11/12/17

[Lucifers Hero 39,737]

As others have mentioned Goodwin may sometimes soften selection criteria and play someone a bit out of form/fitness, needs the experience or doesn't play his role well one week.  To be fair players are entitled to the odd poor game without being automatically dropped. 

But there are other criteria I am sure he will not ease up on:  Follow instructions!  Do the Team Things!  Behave off-field!  Train hard!  That is why Harmes, Hannan and ANB got games and Kent did not. 

Goodwin has more depth and I would expect him to enforce those disciplines much more next year.   And, team selection will be where he enforces them.

Edited December 13, 2017 by Lucifer's Hero

[Lord Ivanhoe 311]

On 12/12/2017 at 11:40 AM, Satyriconhome said:

A few of the players have communicated that to me, new season clean slate, Goody will pick the 22 fit, in form and playing their role to a high consistent standard 

If we have a consistent 22 over a period of games, it will mean we are playing a good winning brand of footy

I feel after the way we finished 2017 that Goodwin has learnt a lot of lessons and has more resolve to live the above.

A first year coach/manager naturally needs to grow in the role. eg it would be a huge challenge to balance the need to build player/coach relationships yet still have the difficult conversations (when required) before real rapport exists.  

 

[Lil_red_fire_engine 11,166]

I dont believe there is a best 22 or every spot available approach. I suggest there is something like a preferred 16 with a play your role 6. The preferred 16 need to be carrying serious injury or significant consistent form loss to be uprooted. They are those that are rushed back in because they are clearly best in positions even when slightly off. Then there are those that make up the 6 that the dependance on how quickly they are in or out is based in long term importance or the consistency of their performance and team first behaviours. For last season I would put Smith, Brayshaw and Weid in the former of this group and players like ANB, Harmes and OMac in this second group. 

[Gator 17,332]

http://www.melbournefc.com.au/news/2017-12-13/calf-injury-a-bit-of-a-blowup-jones

[Deemania since 56 6,634]

1 hour ago, Tarax Club said:

To quote Binman 06/12/2017 on an earlier preseason training thread ... 

"Surprise, surprise stmj is worried tmac's younger brother won't make it. Quelle horreur!

Well i'm not. I can see what the fd can. Like he has been since first selected he is a lock for our starting 22 (yes, yes, i know he was dropped. Once). I have argued the fact he is picked week in week out is proof of his standing. Some - well one - have argued his selection is down to luck and fortituous timing (there are no other options!).

The latter argument is moot this year with lever coming in. There are options for the fd if they think he is not ready.

So when he starts in the side round one and remains in all year, injuries notwithstanding, it will be crystal clear, even to his most trenchant of critics, how highly he is rated by his coach and the fd.

By the happy to bet the above scenario will come to pass."

Objective evidence of a player's performance independent of an observer's emotions or imagination reflects the pre-eminent  role modern sport science has at the pinnacle.  Objective  aces Subjective every time.

 Odds on for Oscar to replace Jack as the  Demonland whipping boy next season 

 

Worrying, amusing, unsettling, fd preferences leave some in wonderment, but thank you for the opinion. 'Carna Dees!

[Satyriconhome 10,857]

4 hours ago, The Chazz said:

They are fair responses to Vogan's points, but I notice you left the Smith recall off.

With that in mind, there is absolutely no reason you can come up with that would justify Smith's recall later in the season.  From memory, he played one return match at Casey, and was pretty ordinary, but was then rushed back in to the seniors.

I don't really know what this whole argument is about.  Reality is, the selection committee will pick 22 likes who they think will win a game.  Its their opinion, so there's always going to be some that disagree.  But it's what they get paid to do, and we can only trust that their decisions are accurate.  They also have access to a lot of data (GPS, etc) that we will never see, and also know more about opposition teams than any of us ever know.

I asked about Smith at the time, they were disappointed when he got injured and wanted him back in the team quickly, again it didn't work out the way they wanted

It is also not an argument, it is a discussion with well put opinions, a breath of fresh air on here

I agree with buck on Weed/Pedo, Pedo was working hard on rebuilding himself, Weed was ready to go

[monoccular 17,424]

On 11/12/2017 at 6:59 PM, Satyriconhome said:

Just a note, and discussed this with Mr Demonland today, forget the best 22, Goodwin will pick  the 22 he wants each week

You have to be fully fit, in form and playing your role

 

On 11/12/2017 at 9:07 PM, stevethemanjordan said:

 

Hope everyone keeps that bit of information in-house..

 

OMG - the cat is out of the bag.  Opposition opposition watchers will be all over this totally surprising piece of information.  So much so that if we miss out on the flag it will be on your head, Satryi

On 11/12/2017 at 11:05 PM, Dr. Gonzo said:

He'll [Salem] play mid this year all things being equal

Maybe, but rarely are all things equal 

EDIT - in fact never!

On 12/12/2017 at 12:03 PM, tiers said:

Has there ever been another way to select a team? The coaches know what they expect and, in many cases, it can be different to what we expect.

I am happy to leave selection and roles to Goody. Otherwise, it messes with my mind.

Go dees.

A couple of new Port players say "hi"!

On 12/12/2017 at 12:37 PM, tiers said:

Favourites can mean players who the coach, unlike us, believes can perform to the required standard.

To commit a heresy, there have been times when I thought that Jack Viney was not performing to his best standard. Obviously, the coaches thought otherwise as he has been highly placed in the B&F.

Let's accept that they are looking for something else and that our perceptions are different.

 

 

Nevertheless, his best standard is quite lofty:  I am sure JV was disappointed at not reaching his heights, but clearly those who matter (plus myself for one) feel even below his best he is still better than the next option.  That, surely, is the thought process at selection.

Edited December 13, 2017 by monoccular

[Deemania since 56 6,634]

3 hours ago, Tarax Club said:

To quote Binman 06/12/2017 on an earlier preseason training thread ... 

"Surprise, surprise stmj is worried tmac's younger brother won't make it. Quelle horreur!

Well i'm not. I can see what the fd can. Like he has been since first selected he is a lock for our starting 22 (yes, yes, i know he was dropped. Once). I have argued the fact he is picked week in week out is proof of his standing. Some - well one - have argued his selection is down to luck and fortituous timing (there are no other options!).

The latter argument is moot this year with lever coming in. There are options for the fd if they think he is not ready.

So when he starts in the side round one and remains in all year, injuries notwithstanding, it will be crystal clear, even to his most trenchant of critics, how highly he is rated by his coach and the fd.

By the happy to bet the above scenario will come to pass."

Objective evidence of a player's performance independent of an observer's emotions or imagination reflects the pre-eminent  role modern sport science has at the pinnacle.  Objective  aces Subjective every time.

 Odds on for Oscar to replace Jack as the  Demonland whipping boy next season 

 

Like your comment, Tarax Club. A real Ron Blaskett with Gerry Gee. What a fabulous memory, down to the Channel 9 studios in Richmond just after school for all the Tarax lemonade that you could drink whilst running berserk on the show as an 'audience'. Those were the days, and MFC was really strong, then.

[Dr. Gonzo 24,207]

9 hours ago, Deemania since 56 said:

Weideman and Oscar McD - - plenty of Casey room for these two.

Oscar was good in the second half of the year, turned it around on Queens Bday I thought. With his brother moving forward there is room in defence for him alongside Lever, Jetta, Hibberd, Lewis and possibly Frost.

[Deemania since 56 6,634]

11 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Oscar was good in the second half of the year, turned it around on Queens Bday I thought. With his brother moving forward there is room in defence for him alongside Lever, Jetta, Hibberd, Lewis and possibly Frost.

Thanks, Dr Gonzo, I admit that there was some mid-term improvement but at that level, I feel that weakened the backline defences with Tom off to other duties and Oscar was somewhat repetitive in errors of old. Still, I also believe that more stints with Casey will assist him with sticking to his man, spoiling more effectively, more often and taking marks with subsequent and effective clearance play. I may be wrong, certainly; in time, I'd hope that his improvement is a continuum and occurs more consistently. Thanks for the comment. Go Dees!

[What 18,810]

12 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Oscar was good in the second half of the year, turned it around on Queens Bday I thought. With his brother moving forward there is room in defence for him alongside Lever, Jetta, Hibberd, Lewis and possibly Frost.

Oscar is underrated.   Doesn't deserve most of the flak he cops on here.  Of course he has some areas to improve, hes a 21 year old key back after all.

The Big O is coming along nicely.

Edited December 13, 2017 by Petraccattack

[jackaub 1,402]

8 minutes ago, Petraccattack said:

Oscar is underrated.   Doesn't deserve most of the flak he cops on here.  Of course he has some areas to improve, hes a 21 year old key back after all.

The Big O is coming along nicely.

I like your enthusiasm Pettat 

I personally cannot see what you like about him 

He really needs to clean up his disposal and become much much calmer under pressure

I just hope the big O doesnt become the big Zero!

[jnrmac 20,058]

14 minutes ago, Petraccattack said:

Oscar is underrated.   Doesn't deserve most of the flak he cops on here.  Of course he has some areas to improve, hes a 21 year old key back after all.

The Big O is coming along nicely.

OMac is lots of things but he isn't underrated. According to many on here he is the second coming.

[demons123452000 131]

How great it is for us country Demons to see the names with the photos. I have never been to a training session @ only get to about 3 games so to be able to get a better idea on faces and names is great. love the lever deal but will miss JW. Go Dees

[binman 42,896]

1 hour ago, jnrmac said:

According to many on here he is the second coming.

Speaking of fake news. Name one DL poster who has indicated or suggested he is the second coming?

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

33 minutes ago, binman said:

Speaking of fake news. Name one DL poster who has indicated or suggested he is the second coming?

Clearly it’s an exaggerated remark.

And so is labelling Oscar as “underrated”. 

Both are untrue.

Edited December 14, 2017 by stevethemanjordan

[Satyriconhome 10,857]

Omac is a 21yr old key defender being built from the ground up both physically and skill wise

I still expect some look away moments this season, but he is certainly not the liability to the team that some make him out to be

[binman 42,896]

7 hours ago, stevethemanjordan said:

Clearly it’s an exaggerated remark.

And so is labelling Oscar as “underrated”. 

Both are untrue.

Not quite. No dl poster has suggested he is rhe secind coming, whereas a few posters are guilty of underrating him.

[jnrmac 20,058]

On 9/3/2017 at 3:14 PM, Farmer said:

Well I think your basic premise is wrong. We had 1934 points kicked against us. Nine teams had more. A group of my mates have been rubbishing Oscar, so  in the last few matches we watched him closely.  They have eventually conceded that he has not been the cause of our problems. An issue is that Tom has been going back and forward and his form, when back, has suffered. Look again, if you can bear to do so, at our last match. Oscar was better than Tom when Tom was playing back.

its not being patronising or even rude to point out that Omac is awfully young and inexperienced in key position terms. I think he has improved remarkably and will be a star. A critical decision for the club is what it wants to do with Tom. If he's going to play CHF next year, we must retain Frost and Lever becomes a high priority, or if he's not available I wouldn't mind Jackson Trengove. But if Tom is going to play CHB, I would still keep Frost ( who in footy terms is still young) and I would concentrate on recruiting  real midfield pace 

 

21 hours ago, binman said:

Speaking of fake news. Name one DL poster who has indicated or suggested he is the second coming?

Snap

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

17 hours ago, Satyriconhome said:

Omac is a 21yr old key defender being built from the ground up both physically and skill wise

I still expect some look away moments this season, but he is certainly not the liability to the team that some make him out to be

If I knew how (and could be bothered) to edit enough of his contests this year, it would clearly show how much of a liability he was in many games.

There are four simple outcomes from a contested situation as a defender:

1 - Win it

2 - Halve it to create a reset in play. (Stoppage, throw-in etc).

3 - Have no impact.

4 - Lose it by making an error. (Turn-over, non-spoil attempt, positional error etc).

 

This year, Oscar was clearly thrown in the deep-end and was ‘allowed’ to find his way due to our lack of talent and depth of key position players. That view is evidenced by our trade and draft period this year.

His games were almost always full of 3’s with some scattered 4’s throughout the year. It was rare that he ever won a contest. And it wasn’t often that he halved them. 

It’s a simple thing to do. Watch any replay and judge him using those 4 outcomes as a measure.

[Red and Blue realist 2,051]

Came on to see if anyone was reporting from the final training session (that's really appreciated by those who aren't in Melbourne and can't make it) and again it's another pissing competition about OMac. Please take it to it's own thread FFS

[binman 42,896]

1 hour ago, stevethemanjordan said:

If I knew how (and could be bothered) to edit enough of his contests this year, it would clearly show how much of a liability he was in many games.

There are four simple outcomes from a contested situation as a defender:

1 - Win it

2 - Halve it to create a reset in play. (Stoppage, throw-in etc).

3 - Have no impact.

4 - Lose it by making an error. (Turn-over, non-spoil attempt, positional error etc).

 

This year, Oscar was clearly thrown in the deep-end and was ‘allowed’ to find his way due to our lack of talent and depth of key position players. That view is evidenced by our trade and draft period this year.

His games were almost always full of 3’s with some scattered 4’s throughout the year. It was rare that he ever won a contest. And it wasn’t often that he halved them. 

It’s a simple thing to do. Watch any replay and judge him using those 4 outcomes as a measure.

Absolute rubbish. Can't be bothered pointing out why. Except to say it is ludicrous to suggest that a player that was as poor as you are saying he is would play all season in a team pushing for finals. Ludicrous

[hemingway 7,627]

1 hour ago, stevethemanjordan said:

If I knew how (and could be bothered) to edit enough of his contests this year, it would clearly show how much of a liability he was in many games.

There are four simple outcomes from a contested situation as a defender:

1 - Win it

2 - Halve it to create a reset in play. (Stoppage, throw-in etc).

3 - Have no impact.

4 - Lose it by making an error. (Turn-over, non-spoil attempt, positional error etc).

 

This year, Oscar was clearly thrown in the deep-end and was ‘allowed’ to find his way due to our lack of talent and depth of key position players. That view is evidenced by our trade and draft period this year.

His games were almost always full of 3’s with some scattered 4’s throughout the year. It was rare that he ever won a contest. And it wasn’t often that he halved them. 

It’s a simple thing to do. Watch any replay and judge him using those 4 outcomes as a measure.

I think we need to give the kid a break.

I am not arguing with your analysis.

However,  young players take different lengths of time to develop. 

There a few like Oliver that can impact a game immediately but most take time. 

We would all expect Oscar to make significant improvement in 2018, otherwise he will be playing at Casey.

However, its not just Oscar but a whole team and a coach that needs to take the next step in 2018, otherwise all hell will break loose.   

[nutbean 8,838]

4 minutes ago, hemingway said:

I think we need to give the kid a break.

I am not arguing with your analysis.

However,  young players take different lengths of time to develop. 

There a few like Oliver that can impact a game immediately but most take time. 

We would all expect Oscar to make significant improvement in 2018, otherwise he will be playing at Casey.

However, its not just Oscar but a whole team and a coach that needs to take the next step in 2018, otherwise all hell will break loose.   

Spot on.

There are only two types analysis you can make - what has been and what will be. I have little problem with what has been analysis and in Oscars case it has been a mixed bag. He has shown some good glimpses and in equal measure he has frustrated me that he can be too slow to react and too slow to impact a contest on his direct opponent. 

What will be ? - I rarely enter these discussions as it is pure guesswork and whilst predicting that Oliver would be gun may not seem to have been too hard, the majority would have had Jetta and Hunt on the scrapheap. It is safe to say that Oscar needs to improve to cement a permanent place in the team. What is less clear to me is if that will or won't happen.

[george_on_the_outer 7,590]

Need a confirmation from anyone at training this morning. 

A friend who was there texted saying Jones did a calf or achilles in last 30 min.

Edited December 15, 2017 by george_on_the_outer