Farewell Jack Watts

[Willmoy1947 3,780]

38 minutes ago, RedButMostlyBlue said:

Long time lurker, first-time poster. Hi, everyone!

Big JW fan, but I guess much of that is premised on the fairytale of converting potential to success, much like the club itself.

Up until now, I've been highly unimpressed with the handling of this matter. Yes, JW has had his moments (pre-season /his perceived lack of hunger etc.), and he has been frustrating because of the disparity between his best and worst. It's all exacerbated by the #1 tag and his 9 years at the Dees. But he loves the club, and saw us through some dark times. We need people like that. But, I totally agree that things can't stay the same for things to change.

So, Mahoney's comments today are comforting. I now believe there is a chance of JW staying, but that if he does, there is no question whatsoever (Wattsoever?) that he is a leader, and needs to act and play as one. He won't ever be a hard nut like Chunk and Viney, or the fastest on ground, but he's silky and reads the game better than most, and when he's at his best, we play better for it. He's my choice for goal 50m out, after the siren, and one day that could win us a game/final/GF.

But if he goes, I will also know that he was not prepared to be the player we need him to be (or was not able to convince Goody/PJ of this). I'm still kind of broken by 2017 (and other years), hence my name, but I see big things and I'd love for JW to be there. My gut feel is that he'll be there, and he'll be amazing. But I'm a dreamer. I have to be as a Demon, otherwise I'd have checked myself into a psych ward years ago.

I need a profile pic...

My guts says give him a fairytale shot. He will have to work harder than a snowflake in hell to do it!!!

[chook fowler 18,243]

I'm sure the Club have had numerous quiet conversations about his lack of intensity and the penny hasn't dropped so they've abandoned subtlety and come out both barrels blazing  to very publicly make their point. I can't see anything wrong with that. Hopefully Jack now has got the message.

[Akum 2,660]

51 minutes ago, RedButMostlyBlue said:

Long time lurker, first-time poster. Hi, everyone!

Big JW fan, but I guess much of that is premised on the fairytale of converting potential to success, much like the club itself.

Up until now, I've been highly unimpressed with the handling of this matter. Yes, JW has had his moments (pre-season /his perceived lack of hunger etc.), and he has been frustrating because of the disparity between his best and worst. It's all exacerbated by the #1 tag and his 9 years at the Dees. But he loves the club, and saw us through some dark times. We need people like that. But, I totally agree that things can't stay the same for things to change.

So, Mahoney's comments today are comforting. I now believe there is a chance of JW staying, but that if he does, there is no question whatsoever (Wattsoever?) that he is a leader, and needs to act and play as one. He won't ever be a hard nut like Chunk and Viney, or the fastest on ground, but he's silky and reads the game better than most, and when he's at his best, we play better for it. He's my choice for goal 50m out, after the siren, and one day that could win us a game/final/GF.

But if he goes, I will also know that he was not prepared to be the player we need him to be (or was not able to convince Goody/PJ of this). I'm still kind of broken by 2017 (and other years), hence my name, but I see big things and I'd love for JW to be there. My gut feel is that he'll be there, and he'll be amazing. But I'm a dreamer. I have to be as a Demon, otherwise I'd have checked myself into a psych ward years ago.

I need a profile pic...

Another excellent first post. Welcome aboard.

[Stretch Johnson 2,568]

30 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

go back and read.. All explained. Not hard. If not bothered thats fine. 

I've read it.  Your position is far more wishy washy than the position that the club has taken.  

Problem is that when the player and club agree to disagree the dialogue needs to cease and definitive action is taken. 

Watts can't be told to seek a new club without the club disclosing their position and explaining their reasons.

You can't keep things like that secret.

Anyhow this has been done to death. 

[beelzebub 22,225]

5 minutes ago, Stretch Johnson said:

I've read it.  Your position is far more wishy washy than the position that the club has taken.  

Problem is that when the player and club agree to disagree the dialogue needs to cease and definitive action is taken. 

Watts can't be told to seek a new club without the club disclosing their position and explaining their reasons.

You can't keep things like that secret.

Anyhow this has been done to death. 

Well done, missed point.

Others haven't. Play on.

[Ron Burgundy 8,584]

38 minutes ago, RedButMostlyBlue said:

Long time lurker, first-time poster. Hi, everyone!

Big JW fan, but I guess much of that is premised on the fairytale of converting potential to success, much like the club itself.

Up until now, I've been highly unimpressed with the handling of this matter. Yes, JW has had his moments (pre-season /his perceived lack of hunger etc.), and he has been frustrating because of the disparity between his best and worst. It's all exacerbated by the #1 tag and his 9 years at the Dees. But he loves the club, and saw us through some dark times. We need people like that. But, I totally agree that things can't stay the same for things to change.

So, Mahoney's comments today are comforting. I now believe there is a chance of JW staying, but that if he does, there is no question whatsoever (Wattsoever?) that he is a leader, and needs to act and play as one. He won't ever be a hard nut like Chunk and Viney, or the fastest on ground, but he's silky and reads the game better than most, and when he's at his best, we play better for it. He's my choice for goal 50m out, after the siren, and one day that could win us a game/final/GF.

But if he goes, I will also know that he was not prepared to be the player we need him to be (or was not able to convince Goody/PJ of this). I'm still kind of broken by 2017 (and other years), hence my name, but I see big things and I'd love for JW to be there. My gut feel is that he'll be there, and he'll be amazing. But I'm a dreamer. I have to be as a Demon, otherwise I'd have checked myself into a psych ward years ago.

I need a profile pic...

Great post - perfect assessment IMO.

I too am very relieved that Mahoney has spelled out the situation clearly and without ambiguity. This had the potential to get really ugly, although I personally take some comfort from Mahoney's comments.

I'm really glad the club promoted Mahoney into a leadership/management position. He has performed extremely well in this role.

I'd like to see Jack Watts spend his career with the red and the blue. Clearly he needs to lift his approach to training though and not merely rely on his natural ability to deliver on the field, which IMO he generally has over the past 2 years.

Seemingly Watts needs to realise that, given his age and time at the club, he is a leader and needs to behave like one, even if he does not ultimately wish to have a formal leadership position.

Really hope to see him in the red and blue next year. Dominating.

 

[ChewyOnMyBoot 152]

1 hour ago, mo64 said:

Joe Public just sees it like it is. We are trying to offload an under performing player who is contracted.

So much of what I read on Demonland is conjecture and opinion made to sound like fact. 

My missus does the same and I call her out on it all the time (except when it's about how gifted I am in bed - hahahaha). Fortunately she has a giggle every time call 'bull***t' on her 'facts'!! She takes it in the way it was intended - just me wanting to clarify if what she is saying is fact or not.

Demonland would be so much more productive and informative if every now and again opinions/claims were supported with fact.

So after seeing mo64's comment re Jack being an under performing player (which is so like many others on here) I thought that for the greater good of the universe, if I am to do anything today, it must be to pull together some 'facts' about Jacks performance for the esteemed and highly educated and insightful followers of Demonland.

I figure there are 2 ways in which the 'performance' of a player can be assessed:

1. Against other 'similar' players in the competition (e.g. those with similar skills, roles, etc. - how do their stats compare)

2. Against the standards expected of the player given the players perceived talent and skill

The 2nd option is obviously quite subjective and will differ (very widely in Jack's case) from person to person depending on things like their 'affection'/bias for the player, their own assessment of what skills are important and their own assessment of how far the player goes to meeting them. This assessment is highly influenced by personal opinion and not necessarily by fact and so I won't go down that track. (My own opinion is that Jack doesn't produce what I believe he is capable of because I believe he has sublime talents and an uncanny ability to create time and space when he gets the ball. BUT I do believe that he produces at an acceptable level (for me) for an AFL footballer - I just wish he'd do it more. But some of the reason, I believe, for Jack not appearing to do enough is that I'm not sure that they have ever settled him in a role or known how to use him).

The 1st option lends itself to being able to be more factually based. For me, I really admire what Tom Lynch does for Adelaide and the role they have him play. I wouldn't say that he's particularly 'tough' and 'manic' around the ball but I consider him incredibly efficient with his disposal and a great decision maker. And I think the role he plays for Adelaide is a role that somebody needs to play at Melbourne - the link up man. And IMO Jack is the perfect man for that role. The difference at the moment IMO is that Adelaide players more frequently look for their 'link man' when they are coming out of the backline whereas Melbourne doesn't.

So how does Jack, in terms of performance, match up against Tom Lynch. Below are the averages from the 2016 and 2017 seasons. All sourced from https://afltables.com/.

I'll leave it to each person who reads this to make up their mind as to how Jack measures up against Tom Lynch:

Edited October 4, 2017 by ChewyOnMyBoot

[mo64 5,209]

10 minutes ago, ChewyOnMyBoot said:

So much of what I read on Demonland is conjecture and opinion made to sound like fact. My missus does the same and I call her out on it all the time (except when it's about how gifted I am in bed - sorry). Fortunately she has a giggle every time call 'bull***t' on her 'facts'!! She takes it in the way it was intended - just me wanting to clarify if what she is saying is fact or not.

Demonland would be so much more productive and informative if every now and again opinions/claims were supported with fact.

So after seeing mo64's comment re Jack being an under performing player (which is so like many others on here) I thought that for the greater good of the universe, if I am to do anything today, it must be to pull together some 'facts' about Jacks performance for the esteemed and highly educated and insightful followers of Demonland.

 

You can produce all the stats you like. Watts got dropped due to poor form, and since being at the Crows, Lynch has never been close to being dropped. 

Edited October 4, 2017 by mo64

[ChewyOnMyBoot 152]

20 minutes ago, mo64 said:

You can produce all the stats you like. Watts got dropped due to poor form, and since being at the Crows, Lynch has never been close to being dropped. 

Hahahahaha. Good on you. So he got dropped for poor form. As many, many players do.

Surely a players 'under performance' would need to be assessed over a longer period than just having been dropped for a couple of games?

And I'm not trying to support Jack or otherwise. I'm just putting up some facts that are too often missing from Demonland commentary and have left it for you to make your own assessment - whatever that may be I couldn't give a rats.

Is it a coincidence that the part of my post you included in your own post stops at the point where I said that what I was doing was for the " esteemed and highly educated and insightful followers of Demonland. "? I assume you realised that it wasn't meant for you to go any further.

Edited October 4, 2017 by ChewyOnMyBoot

[rpfc 27,476]

My gut feel now:

That this is less about setting standards and more about creating an asset to use this trade period because we have talked to more people than we can pay to get with current assets...

How's that for speculation?!

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

8 minutes ago, rpfc said:

My gut feel now:

That this is less about setting standards and more about creating an asset to use this trade period because we have talked to more people than we can pay to get with current assets...

Clearly it's both.

[ManDee 7,084]

12 minutes ago, ChewyOnMyBoot said:

Hahahahaha. Good on you. So he got dropped for poor form. Obviously needs a flogging for that!! Must get rid of him then.

Such comparisons always need to be made over an extended period - not on what happened in one (or few) particular instances.

And I'm not trying to support Jack or otherwise. I'm just puttin gup some facts that are too often missing from Demonlkand commentary and have left it for you to make your own assessment - whatever that may be I couldn't give a rats.

Is it a coincidence that the part of my post you included in your own post stops at the point where I said that what I was doing was for the " esteemed and highly educated and insightful followers of Demonland. "? I assume you realised that it wasn't meant for you to go any further.

[Vogon Poetry 2,095]

7 minutes ago, rpfc said:

My gut feel now:

That this is less about setting standards and more about creating an asset to use this trade period because we have talked to more people than we can pay to get with current assets...

How's that for speculation?!

I'm the opposite.  Watts goes at 80% and gets a game because he's gifted.  We can't afford to have Petracca, Hogan, Brayshaw and others who are gifted going at 80% if we are to win a flag and the club is making a very clear statement.

If he stays he can't put a foot out of line or he'll play a lot of footy at Casey.

FTR I don't think it's been very well handled by us.  I've got no idea what will happen - both parties are in a very difficult situation.  Would any other club take him now knowing he really doesn't want to be there?  We clearly don't want him.

[mo64 5,209]

12 minutes ago, ChewyOnMyBoot said:

Hahahahaha. Good on you. So he got dropped for poor form. Obviously needs a flogging for that!! Must get rid of him then.

Such comparisons always need to be made over an extended period - not on what happened in one (or few) particular instances.

And I'm not trying to support Jack or otherwise. I'm just puttin gup some facts that are too often missing from Demonlkand commentary and have left it for you to make your own assessment - whatever that may be I couldn't give a rats.

Is it a coincidence that the part of my post you included in your own post stops at the point where I said that what I was doing was for the " esteemed and highly educated and insightful followers of Demonland. "? I assume you realised that it wasn't meant for you to go any further.

Are you serious? Being dropped in one of the 2 seasons you've used to support your argument means he has under performed.

[jumbo returns 6,488]

2 hours ago, Redleg said:

Non demonlanders. Surely you know Melbourne people who are frustrated with Jack's performances. 

I'm frustrated by Jack's performances, but his early development goes a long way in explaining some of these frustrations

But, his last two or three years have been very good, despite the contrary opinion/s

Anyhoo, is he staying or going?

[Ron Burgundy 8,584]

22 minutes ago, mo64 said:

You can produce all the stats you like. Watts got dropped due to poor form, and since being at the Crows, Lynch has never been close to being dropped. 

During the AFL seasons in 2016 and 2017, would you please identify when exactly Watts was dropped due to poor form.

There's a fair degree of Trumpism attendant with your reply: 'produce all the stats you like' etc.

There are clearly some issues with Watts, but I don't think it's particularly credible to conveniently dismiss things such as stats. Sings of confirmation bias.

Plainly Watts has some ability and has delivered some very good performances in 2016 and 2017. I wouldn't have thought there's any controversy in this (especially given that it is backed up by objective data).

 

[ChewyOnMyBoot 152]

Thanks ManDee. Have loaded the image as my profile pic.

[Wiseblood 24,636]

Absolutely loved what Mahoney had to say this morning.  The fact that they have high expectations, and that Jack has still refused to meet these, is good enough for me in terms of putting him up for trade.  The club just won't stand for it anymore.  They expect him to be a better player and to be setting a strong, positive example for the younger players to follow - something he is still not doing.  You have to draw the line somewhere.

If he stays with us, though, then I think he clearly know he is no walk up start to the side anymore and that it will take lots of hard work and commitment to earn the trust of the coaches, and the players, again.

[ChewyOnMyBoot 152]

7 minutes ago, Ron Burgundy said:

During the AFL seasons in 2016 and 2017, would you please identify when exactly Watts was dropped due to poor form.

There's a fair degree of Trumpism attendant with your reply: 'produce all the stats you like' etc.

There are clearly some issues with Watts, but I don't think it's particularly credible to conveniently dismiss things such as stats. Sings of confirmation bias.

Plainly Watts has some ability and has delivered some very good performances in 2016 and 2017. I wouldn't have thought there's any controversy in this (especially given that it is backed up by objective data).

 

Thanks Ron for responding to mo64. I wasn't going to bother. Sometimes it's just best to ignore ignorance.

Edited October 4, 2017 by ChewyOnMyBoot

[Wiseblood 24,636]

7 minutes ago, Ron Burgundy said:

During the AFL seasons in 2016 and 2017, would you please identify when exactly Watts was dropped due to poor form.

There's a fair degree of Trumpism attendant with your reply: 'produce all the stats you like' etc.

There are clearly some issues with Watts, but I don't think it's particularly credible to conveniently dismiss things such as stats. Sings of confirmation bias.

Plainly Watts has some ability and has delivered some very good performances in 2016 and 2017. I wouldn't have thought there's any controversy in this (especially given that it is backed up by objective data).

 

What?  He came back from injury, played like poo and was subsequently dropped before coming back for the game against the Pies this year.  

[Wiseblood 24,636]

34 minutes ago, ChewyOnMyBoot said:

Hahahahaha. Good on you. So he got dropped for poor form. As many, many players do.

Surely a players 'under performance' would need to be assessed over a longer period than just having been dropped for a couple of games?

And I'm not trying to support Jack or otherwise. I'm just putting up some facts that are too often missing from Demonland commentary and have left it for you to make your own assessment - whatever that may be I couldn't give a rats.

Is it a coincidence that the part of my post you included in your own post stops at the point where I said that what I was doing was for the " esteemed and highly educated and insightful followers of Demonland. "? I assume you realised that it wasn't meant for you to go any further.

For a bloke with 5 posts you sure know everything there is to know about Demonland.  I wonder how you've done that... ?

[Deestar9 1,402]

42 minutes ago, mo64 said:

You can produce all the stats you like. Watts got dropped due to poor form, and since being at the Crows, Lynch has never been close to being dropped. 

What I would say ...Lynch’s GF performance...woeful (I was there) I would back Watts performance in a GF (without obviously seeing him) as extremely reliable....he always performs under pressure when he had too 

[beelzebub 22,225]

5 minutes ago, Wiseblood said:

For a bloke with 5 posts you sure know everything there is to know about Demonland.  I wonder how you've done that... ?

He's efficient

[Wiseblood 24,636]

Just now, beelzebub said:

He's efficient

Which is more than you could say for some I guess.

[Pennant St Dee 11,284]

I listened to Mahoney this morning and was very impressed with him.

Didn't sugar coat any of it and was very open and to the point.

If Jack stays he's been left under no illusions as to what is required