Changes vs Hawthorn

[tappysquads 618]

21 minutes ago, Wrecker45 said:

We brought in Frost and Hibberd after 1 VFL game.

Wouldn't surprise if Wagner came in based on that.

Didn't Wagner play round 1 without any NAB games?

[Hellaintabadplacetobe 4,294]

3 minutes ago, tappysquads said:

Didn't Wagner play round 1 without any NAB games?

No, has been injured since the 1st pre season game against the Dogs (1st qtr from memory!)

[Garbo 1,534]

1 hour ago, Bay Riffin said:

I might be in a minority here but Melksham brings much needed urgency and impacts contests a lot. I think people don't see what he and JKH were bringing defensively for us on the weekend. He also has some toe. I keep hearing Wagner is quick but I didn't see a lot of pace when he played. Melksham is not as bad as people think.

Problem is he rushes the kick to much, just throws it on the boot even when he doesn't need to and either kicks to 30-50 with no advantage or straight to the opposition 

[Wiseblood 24,637]

Let's not miss the point re: JKH.  Pressure acts are fine, but he is in the side as a small forward, and they are required to hit the scoreboard.  He hasn't done that in the 2 games he has played.  To cement a spot in the side he will need to do both, like Garlett has been doing.  Kent was dropped for doing the opposite from two games (hit the scoreboard but didn't put on enough forward pressure), and on that basis JKH deserves to be dropped for doing the opposite.  His pressure might be fine but he is bringing little else to the table.

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

12 minutes ago, Wiseblood said:

Let's not miss the point re: JKH.  Pressure acts are fine, but he is in the side as a small forward, and they are required to hit the scoreboard.  He hasn't done that in the 2 games he has played. 

I dunno about that actually. Round 1 Goody brought in Hannan and ANB specifically to be defensive forwards. To stop the rebounding, which is usually the culprit when we lose. Obviously both have either hit the scoreboard, or led directly to goals as well. But I reckon it's the difference between what guys like Kent and Garlett bring to the game vs what ANB and JKH bring that defines their selection. Kent is good as a goalkicker as you point out. Jeffy plays every week cos, frankly, he's been great at both offense and defense. Even a bit of midfield. He's just about in career best form. Goody's been picking specific types this year over form. eg Weed played in a lot of games and didn't do much, simply because of the kind of chess piece he is.

That's why I don't mind him playing JKH for two games. And ANB in general. We have a functioning forward line, and players in reserve to function there. As well as players that roll through there for only part of the game, like Watts Pedo etc. JKH and ANB do heaps more up the ground. I think if ANB gets dropped it'll be because he didn't get involved too much for the first time this year, and has Kent nipping at his heels. JKH probably will be dropped because he just looks out of touch. Really low on confidence disposing the ball both by hand and foot.

I have a feeling the slow Hawks will really hurt against our pace. I really hope Kent comes in.

[Vogon Poetry 2,095]

4 hours ago, stevethemanjordan said:

 

No I can't explain them. 

But then again, I can't explain why Hurley got equal most with Oliver. 

Do you have an opinion? Or prefer to throw in with whatever the coaches say?

 

I've been following this game for a long time and know that when knowledgable footy people have a view that differs from mine they are most likely right and I should at least consider their position before dismissing it out of hand. I think you should be asking yourself why you differ from people who make a living out of footy, notably Goodwin and Worsfold.

FWIW Tyson has had two excellent seasons and a poor one and IMO had a slow start to this season.  But his poor season and this season coincided with significantly interrupted preseasons and I know when he gets it right he's a very good player.  I think he's working into good form now and will be valuable to us and unlike some I'm prepared to consider his positives as well as his negatives. I think you're wrong with Tyson and the coaches votes on Sunday make you look a little silly. Funnily enough while you can always disregard statistics when it doesn't suit your argument it's much harder to dismisses coaches votes.

 

[old dee 23,791]

26 minutes ago, Wiseblood said:

Let's not miss the point re: JKH.  Pressure acts are fine, but he is in the side as a small forward, and they are required to hit the scoreboard.  He hasn't done that in the 2 games he has played.  To cement a spot in the side he will need to do both, like Garlett has been doing.  Kent was dropped for doing the opposite from two games (hit the scoreboard but didn't put on enough forward pressure), and on that basis JKH deserves to be dropped for doing the opposite.  His pressure might be fine but he is bringing little else to the table.

I agree Wiseblood. Being a small forward who does add to the scoreboard seems to be a serious problem.

[Wiseblood 24,637]

6 minutes ago, Dappa Dan said:

I dunno about that actually. Round 1 Goody brought in Hannan and ANB specifically to be defensive forwards. To stop the rebounding, which is usually the culprit when we lose. Obviously both have either hit the scoreboard, or led directly to goals as well. But I reckon it's the difference between what guys like Kent and Garlett bring to the game vs what ANB and JKH bring that defines their selection. Kent is good as a goalkicker as you point out. Jeffy plays every week cos, frankly, he's been great at both offense and defense. Even a bit of midfield. He's just about in career best form. Goody's been picking specific types this year over form. eg Weed played in a lot of games and didn't do much, simply because of the kind of chess piece he is.

That's why I don't mind him playing JKH for two games. And ANB in general. We have a functioning forward line, and players in reserve to function there. As well as players that roll through there for only part of the game, like Watts Pedo etc. JKH and ANB do heaps more up the ground. I think if ANB gets dropped it'll be because he didn't get involved too much for the first time this year, and has Kent nipping at his heels. JKH probably will be dropped because he just looks out of touch. Really low on confidence disposing the ball both by hand and foot.

I have a feeling the slow Hawks will really hurt against our pace. I really hope Kent comes in.

The only thing I would disagree with there Dappa is that, as a small forward who plays a large percentage of the game forward of centre, you need to hit the scoreboard.  Hannan and Jeffy both did so, with Hannah scoring a few opportunistic ones, while we also got good service out of Watts and Petracca.  I don't know the exact role that JKH was given (none of us do), but to me he still needs to put pressure on both his man AND the scoreboard.  I agree that we have a functioning forward line right now, which is close to a miracle without our best forward, but I think JKH lets us down in too many areas to be considered a regular in our side.  He may well get another week, but the pressure is on.  Kennedy and Kent are waiting in the wings and they may take his spot for good if he doesn't life his game from here.

[Wiseblood 24,637]

5 minutes ago, old dee said:

I agree Wiseblood. Being a small forward who does add to the scoreboard seems to be a serious problem.

It seems to be a small, missing ingredient to our forward line at the minute.  Jeffy does both of these really well at the minute, and we need that other small forward to do the same.  Kent was good offensively, JKH is good (supposedly) defensively, but neither have been able to do both.  It will be great when one of them does.

[old dee 23,791]

1 hour ago, Wells 11 said:

big call. I felt almost sad reading it. Brayshaw can still be massive for the dees...I havent given up yet. 

I did not say he was a bust or anything similar Wells 11.

I just don't think at present he is best 22 player. 

[old dee 23,791]

1 minute ago, Wiseblood said:

It seems to be a small, missing ingredient to our forward line at the minute.  Jeffy does both of these really well at the minute, and we need that other small forward to do the same.  Kent was good offensively, JKH is good (supposedly) defensively, but neither have been able to do both.  It will be great when one of them does.

My problem with both is I don't think either can . The solution might lie elsewhere.

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

Just now, Wiseblood said:

The only thing I would disagree with there Dappa is that, as a small forward who plays a large percentage of the game forward of centre, you need to hit the scoreboard.

Yeah. It's not a ridiculous point you're making by any stretch, and I'm not saying you're wrong or missing the point. But from what I've seen (just watched the game back again) there are players EVERYWHERE who collect the ball inside fifty, and look to dish off and actually actively avoid looking at goal. ANB has done it superbly a couple of times. JKH I reckon I only saw him a few times get a touch in the forward line, and had he been the same as Jeffy he'd have had a couple of shots at goal like Jeff's first one. Instinctual, high degree of difficulty, you'd-better-be-Jeff type shots. You're right, you want to see him attempt 3 or so shots a game, and he's not doing that. But while we're averaging nearly 100 points a game, I'm COMPLETELY comfortable with him not having a single shot on goal. Just would like to see more up the ground I guess. I think he could easily play a third week, cos I don't think he's been woeful. Drastically needs to drink a bit of his team-mates' coolaid though. Probably as low on confidence as anyone in the side right now. When he's up and running and the ball is sitting nicely, he can be a good winger/forward. If he gets selected again this week, let's look at it again then. 

[Wiseblood 24,637]

2 minutes ago, old dee said:

My problem with both is I don't think either can . The solution might lie elsewhere.

I still think Kent has it in him, and it may be that the FD are really putting it on him to do even more defensively.  He is coming off an interrupted pre-season so I'm willing to cut him a little slack.  He's been able to do it in the past, but he may just be a few paces off at where he wants to be at the minute.

[old dee 23,791]

4 minutes ago, Wiseblood said:

I still think Kent has it in him, and it may be that the FD are really putting it on him to do even more defensively.  He is coming off an interrupted pre-season so I'm willing to cut him a little slack.  He's been able to do it in the past, but he may just be a few paces off at where he wants to be at the minute.

Hope you are right.

[spirit of norm smith 16,459]

Out. JKH 

in. Hogan 

Gawn 10 weeks and counting

[Lucifers Hero 39,811]

4 minutes ago, old dee said:

My problem with both is I don't think either can . The solution might lie elsewhere.

Agreed od...the solution is elsewhere.

I can see that when Wagner and Stretch are back it frees Salem up to move up the ground.  He is too good to hide him in a pocket but he can certainly kick goals and is outstanding defensively.  So I see every chance he and Petracca rotate thru the midfield/forward.  Then Kent, ANB, JKH and Bugg will be fighting it out for a spot.  (I would add Melksham but we know his protected status, at least for a while.  To me Hannah has done enough this year to own a spot until some plays well enough at Casey to dislodge him). 

Of the 4 atmo I think ANB is in front as he seems to do the 'team first' things all the time.  Kent is selfish and just wants to kick goals and will play defensively when it suits him.  I don't think he can be relied on to do it consistently.   Bugg will be a week to week propostion based on match up requirements or injuries.  With JKH, I don't have a read on yet after only 2 games but feel he should be given a good run at it. 

[What 18,810]

2 hours ago, Chook said:

Aside from the obvious (but possibly overrated) exception of Gawn, this is our best possible team IMO.

It is close thats for sure.

Id have Wagner, Vandenberg and Kent in the team ahead of Melksham, Bugg and ANB though.

Hannan is now in my best 22, hes looking like he could be a real weapon for us. I would guess a lot of supporters would have Brayshaw in the best 22 ahead of him though.

[pinkshark 950]

2 hours ago, Wells 11 said:

big call. I felt almost sad reading it. Brayshaw can still be massive for the dees...I havent given up yet. 

given up?  Concussion issues aside, how anyone can consider him to be a bust or not twice as talented and skilled as Kent is beyond me and makes me wonder in disbelief at some views.  

[Dees2014 2,377]

On 30/04/2017 at 6:49 PM, Northern Summer said:

Maybe Jack should try to give Jess a run for her money. She ran a 2.26 in London last weekend!

Wow, that would put her in the top ten this year I would have thought. A quality person too I think, just like her bro.

[monoccular 17,429]

3 hours ago, old dee said:

The jury is out on whether he [Brayshaw] is best 22 even now DJ. I would have Kent in before him.

 

2 hours ago, Wells 11 said:

big call. I felt almost sad reading it. Brayshaw can still be massive for the dees...I havent given up yet. 

I certainly have him in my best 22, when he is fit and well; just not there at the moment, IMO

1 hour ago, Wiseblood said:

Let's not miss the point re: JKH.  Pressure acts are fine, but he is in the side as a small forward, and they are required to hit the scoreboard.  He hasn't done that in the 2 games he has played.  To cement a spot in the side he will need to do both, like Garlett has been doing.  Kent was dropped for doing the opposite from two games (hit the scoreboard but didn't put on enough forward pressure), and on that basis JKH deserves to be dropped for doing the opposite.  His pressure might be fine but he is bringing little else to the table.

Not disputing your points, but the coach has publicly said otherwise.

[Northern Summer 292]

9 minutes ago, Dees2014 said:

Wow, that would put her in the top ten this year I would have thought. A quality person too I think, just like her bro.

May have been a bit lower than that. Lisa Weightman beat her by about a minute. I'm just happy I can get within 30 minutes of their times!

[Wiseblood 24,637]

1 hour ago, old dee said:

Hope you are right.

Me too, OD.

29 minutes ago, monoccular said:

 

Not disputing your points, but the coach has publicly said otherwise.

He said he was happy with his pressure, not that he was happy with him not scoring goals.  He isn't going to publicly have a crack at someone like JKH who has worked his backside off to get back from injury.

Behind closed doors Goodwin may well be happy with his output, but to me that seems strange.  A small forward needs to hit the scoreboard and he just isn't doing that.  Not to mention the myriad of fumbles as well, but hopefully that improves over time with more confidence.

[Lucifers Hero 39,811]

13 minutes ago, Wiseblood said:

Me too, OD.

He said he was happy with his pressure, not that he was happy with him not scoring goals.  He isn't going to publicly have a crack at someone like JKH who has worked his backside off to get back from injury.

Behind closed doors Goodwin may well be happy with his output, but to me that seems strange.  A small forward needs to hit the scoreboard and he just isn't doing that.  Not to mention the myriad of fumbles as well, but hopefully that improves over time with more confidence.

Gee Wise, it may be a little harsh on JKH.  2 games in over a year isn't much to go on so maybe he needs a bit more time.

I can see you are keen on Kent but I'm not sure he is performing too well as a forward either.  He has averaged 1 goal per game.  For someone who doesn't do the defensive things well nor the 'team first' things that is hardly a good scoreboard record.  He may get a game here and there but he needs to do a bit of work on both the scoreboard and defence.  Consistent defensive work would be a good start.  And I'm not sure it is Kent vs JKH.  As noted earlier, there are 3 or 4 competing for the same spot.

[Demon Dynasty 17,109]

The kick to handball ratio in our 3 wins so far has averaged 1.36. Against the Cats it was right up there also at 1.28. However, as we all know we kicked ourselves out of a very winnable game that night. Our Kick to Handball ratio in our other 2 losses... vs the Dockers 1.17 and the Tigers 1.08 (pretty much one for one!). This week we saw us kicking 30% more on the previous week vs the Tiges @ 1.34 for the win.

So, we have corrected some problems. Namely our clearance issue in the middle by moving Vince up the field into the middle more, the return of Lewis, and the injection of a big bodied fierce competitor in Pedders, freeing Watts up to play a more significant role up forward.  The above seems tgo have inadvertently taken a bit of heat of Viney and given him a chop out probably from bigger bodies through experienced blocks etc. We have quickened up and improved our transition and run off HB with the injection of another line breaker in Hibberd.

And we corrected our major over use of hand ball on the previous week.

IMO we are now back on track for finals IF we can keep the present list healthy and the boys maintain this form and most importantly we DON'T severely regress back, to the over use of handball;

I would not change the present line up this week. Even though i feel JKH and ANB are teetering and two of the biggest culprits of hand balling too much. Jones and Clarry also but with Clarry firing out bullets as he does then who's complaining!  I would give JKH & ANB this week as another opportunity to improve (and raise their level.. significantly) and lets see what Stretch, Harmes and Kent are doing before considering their return. Let the boys settle a little. If Hogan is a definite then i would probably consider JKH given that he hasn't hit the scoreboard and that would surely be something the FD would have been hoping for by now. The less changes the better for this week IMO.

Edited May 2, 2017 by Rusty Nails

[Wiseblood 24,637]

3 minutes ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

Gee Wise, it may be a little harsh on JKH.  2 games in over a year isn't much to go on so maybe he needs a bit more time.

I can see you are keen on Kent but I'm not sure he is performing too well as a forward either.  He has averaged 1 goal per game.  For someone who doesn't do the defensive things well nor the 'team first' things that is hardly a good scoreboard record.  He may get a game here and there but he needs to do a bit of work on both the scoreboard and defence.  Consistent defensive work would be a good start.  And I'm not sure it is Kent vs JKH.  As noted earlier, there are 3 or 4 competing for the same spot.

Possibly, but then Mitch Hannan came in and kicked a couple in his first game for the club, so it's not impossible for him to do.  He may need a little more time but he's played two games and, if memory serves me correctly, he hasn't troubled the scorers at all.  That's not great for a small forward.

As I said, he may be asked to play more defensively than someone like Garlett, but then Jeffy can lay some ripping tackles and still kick a few goals (although admittedly he plays much closer to home than JKH does).  You know me well enough by now LH to know that I want all players to succeed and I'd like to think I don't get stuck into any of them, but I do feel as though JKH needs to add some goals to his game to give himself a chance of keeping his spot longer term.

I'm a Kent fan for sure, but he deserved to get dropped and his form at Casey doesn't necessarily get me excited.  But I think he's a better prospect long term than JKH is.